Flight Pass - Class Action Lawsuit!
Oct 25, 2007, 9:08 pm
#91
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC*SE 2MM, Asia Miles, SPG Gold (life), HH Gold, Golden Circle Jade
Posts: 1,068
Oct 25, 2007, 9:28 pm
#92
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: YVR
Programs: WS Platinum, former AC E35K
Posts: 6,335
The bottom line is that they are screwing over pax who give the airline thousands of dollars every year, the vast majority of pass holders have status. If they would rather lose a pax who gives them thousands of dollars every year versus a pax who buys one J class fare one time, then so be it. AC is walking a very fine line here and if they were smart they would change this now before a lawsuit actually gets underway and it makes the news. Frankly I think they will change it, as they have obviously heard about this thread by now. The lost revenue of a few people who may buy last minute J fares will hardly make up for the lost revenue of many pax and potential pax who decide to no longer buy passes. I dont think that all that many flights actually show J0 the day before departure, and if they do, there are usually plenty of other flights that will have space.
Oct 25, 2007, 10:08 pm
#93
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 9,999
This whole thing makes me happy that I've never invested in a pass.
I think you mean "speculated."
Remember, to Air Canada "committment" is just an 11 letter phrase (comprising 3 words.) That phrase being "go get fuсkеd."
But don't (QUOTE) me on it.
Last edited by Ken hAAmer; Oct 25, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Oct 25, 2007, 10:37 pm
#94
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,808
But that does not exempt them from their contractual obligations. They are absolutely free to set new rules for new pass purchasers.
However they do have a contractual obligation to stick to the rules in vigor when contract was established with current pass holders. Disregarding that is (1) illegal (2) disrespectful and (3) just plain nasty.
Anyway, the whole sage tells you what consideration they have for their best customers. Tells you what the corporate culture is.
Bottom line: we (customers) are the enemy. I truly feel sorry for the poor sods who are AC employees.
Oct 25, 2007, 10:39 pm
#95
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Canada
Programs: Marriott Plat; Air Canada E75K; Westjet Platinum
Posts: 1,161
AC has sold passholders a perceived benefit of being able to upgrade to J but subject to availability. They got your money upfront already, now they will turn around and sell YOUR J seat to a last minute buyer. Wow, what a clever move!! Just like Aeroplan choking off Classic seats from 10% down to 7% - yes we lost seats - and forced people to burn their miles faster by introducing ClassicPlus at 2-4 x the Classic level claiming they now have to "buy" a seat from AC. What a bunch of baloney. Money passing from left hand to right hand and they call that buying a seat. Now Aeroplan has steeped so low to charge different level of fuel surcharge between Classic vs. ClassicPlus rewards. ex., Long haul Canada at Classic level 25000 miles + $85 in surcharges but if I go with ClassicPlus at 75000 miles, I only pay $40. So they want to get you either paying more miles or more cash. These people are dirty.
Oct 25, 2007, 10:42 pm
#96
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: YEG
Posts: 3,925
I'm going to look into it myself. I'm currently waiting to hear back about the COS bonus that was removed Aug 5th. If they don't fix that I was already going to file a small claims court claim against AC.
From the latest email from my favorite Flight Pass Representative:
"senior management are reviewing the impact this 'system fix' has had on Flight Pass owners and I will not know the outcome for a couple of weeks. Please be assured that if this decision is reversed, that any miles would be credited to your Aeroplan account retroactively so that they would go towards your status qualification for 2008."
The COS plus the removal of the J upgrade is simply theft. A contract is a contract. As others have said and as any 1st year law student will tell you there "subject to change at any time" is 100% BS and would be considered as null and without force by the courts.
I was involved with class-action litigation not too long ago. I can assure you it is not fun. I'd love to have a turn at the flight pass manager's email about the COS and J2 upgrade theft. It would take about 5 seconds to find the smoking gun at discovery.
From the latest email from my favorite Flight Pass Representative:
"senior management are reviewing the impact this 'system fix' has had on Flight Pass owners and I will not know the outcome for a couple of weeks. Please be assured that if this decision is reversed, that any miles would be credited to your Aeroplan account retroactively so that they would go towards your status qualification for 2008."
The COS plus the removal of the J upgrade is simply theft. A contract is a contract. As others have said and as any 1st year law student will tell you there "subject to change at any time" is 100% BS and would be considered as null and without force by the courts.
I was involved with class-action litigation not too long ago. I can assure you it is not fun. I'd love to have a turn at the flight pass manager's email about the COS and J2 upgrade theft. It would take about 5 seconds to find the smoking gun at discovery.
I can appreciate that pass holders are extremely upset over this, especially after the removal of the COS. As has been stated by others, one party cannot unilaterally change the conditions of the contract. The T's & C's of the existing passes should be grand fathered. IMHO this is a breach of contract and a lawsuit would be justified. AC can make any changes it wishes to passes prior to sale, people always have the option not to buy. If AC IT cannot easily accomplish this, they should have put something on their website such as “effective October 25, 2008, not all unsold seats in J class will be available for upgrade 24 hours prior to departure.”
I actually thought AC was improving in this regard when they gave prior notice to the discontinuation of the old sun/Hawaii passes.
As far as the removal of COS, IMHO there are no grounds for a suit. There was never any term in the contract that said the COS would be given. Any bonuses that are not part of the contract are not enforceable and AC is not obligated to provide. Be happy that you got the bonuses you did and move on.
I recently had to call IT to be able to cancel a T+ flight pass bookings. After being transferred to AC reservations, I cancelled the flight, and the agent forgot to charge the $40 fee. The next time I get charged the fee, I am not going to threaten to sue AC because the waiving of the fee is an unadvertised benefit. I am going to keep my mouth shut and be happy I kept $40 or face having them try and make me pay the fee.
Oct 25, 2007, 11:12 pm
#98
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 9,999
The conditions of carriage are quite clear. The only obligation of the airline is to get you to destination, period. They can even bus you if so they decide.
Contracts are not a law unto themselves, and are subject to all sorts of other laws, Common Law probably being first among them (at least everywhere other than in Quebec.)
Oct 25, 2007, 11:18 pm
#99
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 9,999
Here's the response to my e-mail to Customer Service (through the website):
Additional upgrade demand from increasing Latitude Pass sales levels has created some significant pressure on our capability to offer complimentary upgrades up to last seat availability and still provide customers to purchase an Executive Class ticket at the last minute.
In an effort to maintain our ability to capture the full revenue potential of the Executive Class cabin, new online functionality has been introduced in order to set aside a pre-determined number of Executive Class seats (threshold) for last minute purchases. Online complimentary Latitude Pass upgrades will be processed until the minimum preset threshold has been reached. If you are unable to capture a complimentary upgrade prior to arrival at the airport, you can use a Top Tier upgrade certificate.
While I appreciate and regret that this may disappoint you, this new policy is to be able to accommodate the customer who wishes to purchase an Executive Class ticket or to upgrade their existing revenue ticket to an Executive Class fare.
I think those of us that have given AC thousands of dollars for flights yet to be flown are a little more than disappointed..
Additional upgrade demand from increasing Latitude Pass sales levels has created some significant pressure on our capability to offer complimentary upgrades up to last seat availability and still provide customers to purchase an Executive Class ticket at the last minute.
In an effort to maintain our ability to capture the full revenue potential of the Executive Class cabin, new online functionality has been introduced in order to set aside a pre-determined number of Executive Class seats (threshold) for last minute purchases. Online complimentary Latitude Pass upgrades will be processed until the minimum preset threshold has been reached. If you are unable to capture a complimentary upgrade prior to arrival at the airport, you can use a Top Tier upgrade certificate.
While I appreciate and regret that this may disappoint you, this new policy is to be able to accommodate the customer who wishes to purchase an Executive Class ticket or to upgrade their existing revenue ticket to an Executive Class fare.
I think those of us that have given AC thousands of dollars for flights yet to be flown are a little more than disappointed..
This one's a keeper. It would be prima facie evidence that Air Canada did in fact unilaterally change the T&C, particularly since they are are voluntarily admitting it.
But here's another "accomodations" I think they should make:
"Passengers already seated in business class may be removed from the aircraft without penalty in order to accomodate a customer residing in Vancouver, holding Super Elite Status for at least 7 years, and has a surname beginning with the letter 'H'."
Last edited by Ken hAAmer; Oct 25, 2007 at 11:30 pm
Oct 25, 2007, 11:21 pm
#100
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 9,999
Additional upgrade demand from increasing Latitude Pass sales levels has created some significant pressure on our capability to offer complimentary upgrades up to last seat availability and still provide customers to purchase an Executive Class ticket at the last minute.
Oh wait. I think that's what they meant.
Nevermind...
Oct 25, 2007, 11:26 pm
#101
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 9,999
The bottom line is that they are screwing over pax who give the airline thousands of dollars every year, the vast majority of pass holders have status.
Oct 25, 2007, 11:39 pm
#103
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 9,999
Now, the last thing I'd like to do is dissuade anyone from persuing a lawsuit against Air Canada, but here's my take...
If a lawsuit is successful (and I suspect if it actually happens, it will be) then what's the best that can happen? Everyone who purchased a pass before a certain date will be able to run out that pass with the last available seat upgrade. And then what?
AC is going to change the T&C come hell or high water, so the next time you buy a pass it will be with the reduced and restricted upgrade ability. So in the long run (i.e. 12 or even 6 months from now) it won't really matter. J2=J0 will be the new reality.
They only way that will change is if people stop buying the passes. They won't. Like trained sheep, they'll just keep eating that salami, one slice at a time. Eventually the passes will cost 12 times the price of the highest Latitude fare but only give ewe 7½ flight segments, won't be upgradable under any circumstance, will book into S class, and will not be changeable or cancellable. 'Cause whether it be frogs, lobsters, or Kool-Aid drinking airline passengers, as long as the heat is turned up slowly, no one will ever notice.
If a lawsuit is successful (and I suspect if it actually happens, it will be) then what's the best that can happen? Everyone who purchased a pass before a certain date will be able to run out that pass with the last available seat upgrade. And then what?
AC is going to change the T&C come hell or high water, so the next time you buy a pass it will be with the reduced and restricted upgrade ability. So in the long run (i.e. 12 or even 6 months from now) it won't really matter. J2=J0 will be the new reality.
They only way that will change is if people stop buying the passes. They won't. Like trained sheep, they'll just keep eating that salami, one slice at a time. Eventually the passes will cost 12 times the price of the highest Latitude fare but only give ewe 7½ flight segments, won't be upgradable under any circumstance, will book into S class, and will not be changeable or cancellable. 'Cause whether it be frogs, lobsters, or Kool-Aid drinking airline passengers, as long as the heat is turned up slowly, no one will ever notice.
Oct 26, 2007, 1:52 am
#104
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: YWG
Programs: UA 1K, AC E, *G x2, BMI Silver, SPG Platinum, Hyatt Diamond, PC Platinum, Hilton Gold
Posts: 1,260
COS Bonus
It may have never been advertised in the Terms and Conditions, and I am not sure how Canadian Law applies here, but I know that in the US there are precedents where if something occurs long enough, whether in breach of contract, or against the law it no longer becomes enforcible if it goes on as an accepted practice without enforcement for a period of time.
For example... if twenty kids trespass across your property to get to and from school every day, and you allow this trespassing to occur, after a period of time you no longer have a right to enforce the trespassing. Again I am not sure what that length of time must be, and if there are provisions in Canadian law for this example, but it is not too far fetched an idea.
As for the passes. I will be contacting Air Canada on monday for a refund for the remaining credits on my wife's and my own flight passes.
I have no problem with Air Canada changing their mind on upgrades for flight passes, but it should only have counted for new purchases, and the terms and conditions should be a little more clear, in fact they should not use the phrase "Seats may not be available on all flights, all days" they should say "A certain number of Executive class seats will not be available for pass upgrades, as these will be reserved for last minute sale"
The removal of the COS bonus meant that I now had a use for these darn certificates, however when my wife who buys two $3500 flight passes a year but still does not fly enough to get status, flies by herself, she no longer has lounge access, has to travel with less luggage, and might not be able to sit in business class. All reasons why we have been buying the passes in the first place!
If Air Canada does not provide me with a refund, I will be contacting my credit card company for a charge back, and if that does not work, I will be filing a small claims action against AC. A class action suit while a great idea, will take years for a settlement to be reached and will amount to a maximum $50 for each credit, which is what I have found the non-sale price difference between the Tango + fare and the cost of the credit to be.
For example... if twenty kids trespass across your property to get to and from school every day, and you allow this trespassing to occur, after a period of time you no longer have a right to enforce the trespassing. Again I am not sure what that length of time must be, and if there are provisions in Canadian law for this example, but it is not too far fetched an idea.
As for the passes. I will be contacting Air Canada on monday for a refund for the remaining credits on my wife's and my own flight passes.
I have no problem with Air Canada changing their mind on upgrades for flight passes, but it should only have counted for new purchases, and the terms and conditions should be a little more clear, in fact they should not use the phrase "Seats may not be available on all flights, all days" they should say "A certain number of Executive class seats will not be available for pass upgrades, as these will be reserved for last minute sale"
The removal of the COS bonus meant that I now had a use for these darn certificates, however when my wife who buys two $3500 flight passes a year but still does not fly enough to get status, flies by herself, she no longer has lounge access, has to travel with less luggage, and might not be able to sit in business class. All reasons why we have been buying the passes in the first place!
If Air Canada does not provide me with a refund, I will be contacting my credit card company for a charge back, and if that does not work, I will be filing a small claims action against AC. A class action suit while a great idea, will take years for a settlement to be reached and will amount to a maximum $50 for each credit, which is what I have found the non-sale price difference between the Tango + fare and the cost of the credit to be.
Last edited by Golden Toque; Oct 26, 2007 at 1:58 am
Oct 26, 2007, 4:21 am
#105
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Thanks for the Memories !!!
Posts: 10,657
It may have never been advertised in the Terms and Conditions, and I am not sure how Canadian Law applies here, but I know that in the US there are precedents where if something occurs long enough, whether in breach of contract, or against the law it no longer becomes enforcible if it goes on as an accepted practice without enforcement for a period of time.
For example... if twenty kids trespass across your property to get to and from school every day, and you allow this trespassing to occur, after a period of time you no longer have a right to enforce the trespassing. Again I am not sure what that length of time must be, and if there are provisions in Canadian law for this example, but it is not too far fetched an idea.
As for the passes. I will be contacting Air Canada on monday for a refund for the remaining credits on my wife's and my own flight passes.
I have no problem with Air Canada changing their mind on upgrades for flight passes, but it should only have counted for new purchases, and the terms and conditions should be a little more clear, in fact they should not use the phrase "Seats may not be available on all flights, all days" they should say "A certain number of Executive class seats will not be available for pass upgrades, as these will be reserved for last minute sale"
The removal of the COS bonus meant that I now had a use for these darn certificates, however when my wife who buys two $3500 flight passes a year but still does not fly enough to get status, flies by herself, she no longer has lounge access, has to travel with less luggage, and might not be able to sit in business class. All reasons why we have been buying the passes in the first place!
If Air Canada does not provide me with a refund, I will be contacting my credit card company for a charge back, and if that does not work, I will be filing a small claims action against AC. A class action suit while a great idea, will take years for a settlement to be reached and will amount to a maximum $50 for each credit, which is what I have found the non-sale price difference between the Tango + fare and the cost of the credit to be.
For example... if twenty kids trespass across your property to get to and from school every day, and you allow this trespassing to occur, after a period of time you no longer have a right to enforce the trespassing. Again I am not sure what that length of time must be, and if there are provisions in Canadian law for this example, but it is not too far fetched an idea.
As for the passes. I will be contacting Air Canada on monday for a refund for the remaining credits on my wife's and my own flight passes.
I have no problem with Air Canada changing their mind on upgrades for flight passes, but it should only have counted for new purchases, and the terms and conditions should be a little more clear, in fact they should not use the phrase "Seats may not be available on all flights, all days" they should say "A certain number of Executive class seats will not be available for pass upgrades, as these will be reserved for last minute sale"
The removal of the COS bonus meant that I now had a use for these darn certificates, however when my wife who buys two $3500 flight passes a year but still does not fly enough to get status, flies by herself, she no longer has lounge access, has to travel with less luggage, and might not be able to sit in business class. All reasons why we have been buying the passes in the first place!
If Air Canada does not provide me with a refund, I will be contacting my credit card company for a charge back, and if that does not work, I will be filing a small claims action against AC. A class action suit while a great idea, will take years for a settlement to be reached and will amount to a maximum $50 for each credit, which is what I have found the non-sale price difference between the Tango + fare and the cost of the credit to be.
