AC Presence on FT
May 23, 2014, 10:21 pm
#751
Join Date: Feb 2006
Programs: various
Posts: 623
Elite50/75 vs SE benefits
Ben Smith, I was interested in some of the back and forth between you and yyzprincess about SE benefits, especially upgrade opportunities.
It was stated by yyzp that she could basically get SE status via UA with 5x trips to Australia for a total of about $10k spend. I've also heard talk in the past on FT about making SE status with even less than $10k in spend.
For these people this then opens up almost unlimited upgrades and top priority for upgrades on their travel. Wouldn't these over-the-top upgrade benefits then discourage some SE's from ever buying premium fares? Wouldn't this then be counter productive to AC from a revenue perspective?
yyzp even used her own travel plans as an example: numerous TPAC flights at the cheapest fares ($2k return) always upgraded to business. How can this be sustainable? (and, again, a good example of how this may discourage some SE's from buying premium fares.)
On the other hand I'm a long-term E50 (average 60-70k travel a year for over 10 years). For business travel I almost always buy up (either Latitude or business) and spend approx. $30k+/- annually. Would I (and the many E50/75's like me) not be more valuable to AC than the large number of (what's affectionately know on FT as) "bottom feeding" SE's?
As I said I buy premium fares for my business travel and had been using the upgrade benefits for international leisure travel. Now that AC has basically removed this benefit (with the addition of co-pay) I have taken a lot of my business elsewhere.
Can you explain the logic of doing this to your mid-tiers?
If the occasional free upgrade for an E50/75 is not sustainable then how can basically unlimited upgrades for ("bottom-feeding") SE's be sustainable?
Has AC seriously looked at true "spend" status instead of just miles travelled?
It was stated by yyzp that she could basically get SE status via UA with 5x trips to Australia for a total of about $10k spend. I've also heard talk in the past on FT about making SE status with even less than $10k in spend.
For these people this then opens up almost unlimited upgrades and top priority for upgrades on their travel. Wouldn't these over-the-top upgrade benefits then discourage some SE's from ever buying premium fares? Wouldn't this then be counter productive to AC from a revenue perspective?
yyzp even used her own travel plans as an example: numerous TPAC flights at the cheapest fares ($2k return) always upgraded to business. How can this be sustainable? (and, again, a good example of how this may discourage some SE's from buying premium fares.)
On the other hand I'm a long-term E50 (average 60-70k travel a year for over 10 years). For business travel I almost always buy up (either Latitude or business) and spend approx. $30k+/- annually. Would I (and the many E50/75's like me) not be more valuable to AC than the large number of (what's affectionately know on FT as) "bottom feeding" SE's?
As I said I buy premium fares for my business travel and had been using the upgrade benefits for international leisure travel. Now that AC has basically removed this benefit (with the addition of co-pay) I have taken a lot of my business elsewhere.
Can you explain the logic of doing this to your mid-tiers?
If the occasional free upgrade for an E50/75 is not sustainable then how can basically unlimited upgrades for ("bottom-feeding") SE's be sustainable?
Has AC seriously looked at true "spend" status instead of just miles travelled?
May 24, 2014, 7:14 am
#752
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 12,068
To add to this point,I can same day change at gate if space available on Rapidair flights. Issue I have when I arrive early to YYZ and am required to pay a chnage fee on a flex pass on segment to onwards to YSB
May 24, 2014, 8:35 am
#753
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,331
I'd put *G and J together.
1. SE
2. *G/J
3 *S/CC
4. Everyone else
According to *A rules, *G should board with J. So this arrangement would comply with *A rules and make SE higher than J with no status.
Aircraft like E90/E75 only has very limited overhead storage in J. SE should have a slight priority over people with no status to board.
1. SE
2. *G/J
3 *S/CC
4. Everyone else
According to *A rules, *G should board with J. So this arrangement would comply with *A rules and make SE higher than J with no status.
Aircraft like E90/E75 only has very limited overhead storage in J. SE should have a slight priority over people with no status to board.
May 24, 2014, 11:38 am
#754
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,153
LMU not offered to SE on checkin
How is this for treating your SE?
Online checked in at t-23 with eupgrade on Waitlist. 1 exec seat available. No LMU offered. When I went to check my bag no exec seat. "Someone bought it, sir". I said "for 3300$?" She says "no sir they are only 199$ for LMU.
Am I pissed? You betcha!
You are letting any tom, dick and Harry ahead buy a seat and don't even bother to offer it for purchase on checkin to someone on the upgrade list? Is that supposed to punish us for requesting Waitlist upgrades?
That is not what I call loyalty management.
PS: on this particular routing I can buy UA P fares for only $200 extra...(or economy for $200 less) So I doubt I will bother with AC again for any Carribbean or Florida routes.
Online checked in at t-23 with eupgrade on Waitlist. 1 exec seat available. No LMU offered. When I went to check my bag no exec seat. "Someone bought it, sir". I said "for 3300$?" She says "no sir they are only 199$ for LMU.
Am I pissed? You betcha!
You are letting any tom, dick and Harry ahead buy a seat and don't even bother to offer it for purchase on checkin to someone on the upgrade list? Is that supposed to punish us for requesting Waitlist upgrades?
That is not what I call loyalty management.
PS: on this particular routing I can buy UA P fares for only $200 extra...(or economy for $200 less) So I doubt I will bother with AC again for any Carribbean or Florida routes.
Last edited by FlyerTalker683455; May 24, 2014 at 6:02 pm Reason: ps added
May 24, 2014, 12:26 pm
#755
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC*SE 2MM
Posts: 16,655
You can become a UA 1K as YYZp posits above, but you will not be able to get SE for the same amount because AC (unlike UA's MP program) does not offer full mileage on Tango fares or low UA fares to Australia or other destinations.
Last edited by The Lev; May 24, 2014 at 12:31 pm
May 24, 2014, 12:57 pm
#756
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC
Programs: Aeroplan 35K, Hertz Gold
Posts: 1,289
For the rouge A319s, why did you go with 3x3 Euro-J seating for premium rouge instead of 2x2 seating, especially if you are selling it as a business class and not as a premium economy? Seems like the middle blocked seat is just wasted space at the expense of comfort.
Actually, after typing the above, I reviewed the seat layout for these aircraft again, and it now shows 2x2 seating. Are you changing out the seats or is this a misrepresentation? The booking engine still shows 3x3. http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fl...-100rouge.html
Actually, after typing the above, I reviewed the seat layout for these aircraft again, and it now shows 2x2 seating. Are you changing out the seats or is this a misrepresentation? The booking engine still shows 3x3. http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fl...-100rouge.html
May 24, 2014, 1:05 pm
#757
Join Date: Dec 2010
Programs: Aeroplan
Posts: 1,022
Ben Smith, I was interested in some of the back and forth between you and yyzprincess about SE benefits, especially upgrade opportunities.
It was stated by yyzp that she could basically get SE status via UA with 5x trips to Australia for a total of about $10k spend. I've also heard talk in the past on FT about making SE status with even less than $10k in spend.
For these people this then opens up almost unlimited upgrades and top priority for upgrades on their travel. Wouldn't these over-the-top upgrade benefits then discourage some SE's from ever buying premium fares? Wouldn't this then be counter productive to AC from a revenue perspective?
yyzp even used her own travel plans as an example: numerous TPAC flights at the cheapest fares ($2k return) always upgraded to business. How can this be sustainable? (and, again, a good example of how this may discourage some SE's from buying premium fares.)
On the other hand I'm a long-term E50 (average 60-70k travel a year for over 10 years). For business travel I almost always buy up (either Latitude or business) and spend approx. $30k+/- annually. Would I (and the many E50/75's like me) not be more valuable to AC than the large number of (what's affectionately know on FT as) "bottom feeding" SE's?
As I said I buy premium fares for my business travel and had been using the upgrade benefits for international leisure travel. Now that AC has basically removed this benefit (with the addition of co-pay) I have taken a lot of my business elsewhere.
Can you explain the logic of doing this to your mid-tiers?
If the occasional free upgrade for an E50/75 is not sustainable then how can basically unlimited upgrades for ("bottom-feeding") SE's be sustainable?
Has AC seriously looked at true "spend" status instead of just miles travelled?
It was stated by yyzp that she could basically get SE status via UA with 5x trips to Australia for a total of about $10k spend. I've also heard talk in the past on FT about making SE status with even less than $10k in spend.
For these people this then opens up almost unlimited upgrades and top priority for upgrades on their travel. Wouldn't these over-the-top upgrade benefits then discourage some SE's from ever buying premium fares? Wouldn't this then be counter productive to AC from a revenue perspective?
yyzp even used her own travel plans as an example: numerous TPAC flights at the cheapest fares ($2k return) always upgraded to business. How can this be sustainable? (and, again, a good example of how this may discourage some SE's from buying premium fares.)
On the other hand I'm a long-term E50 (average 60-70k travel a year for over 10 years). For business travel I almost always buy up (either Latitude or business) and spend approx. $30k+/- annually. Would I (and the many E50/75's like me) not be more valuable to AC than the large number of (what's affectionately know on FT as) "bottom feeding" SE's?
As I said I buy premium fares for my business travel and had been using the upgrade benefits for international leisure travel. Now that AC has basically removed this benefit (with the addition of co-pay) I have taken a lot of my business elsewhere.
Can you explain the logic of doing this to your mid-tiers?
If the occasional free upgrade for an E50/75 is not sustainable then how can basically unlimited upgrades for ("bottom-feeding") SE's be sustainable?
Has AC seriously looked at true "spend" status instead of just miles travelled?
2. It is a myth that most SEs buy the cheapest upgradable fares. On the contrary, this group includes some of the most sophisticated travelers. Many buy expensive fares such as B and O to improve their upgrade chances on long haul trips. They actually want to upgrade at booking. They are lots out there who buy J, Z, C....AC knows that the so-called bottom feeder group is too small to base policy.
2. If one spends 30K+ on fares annually, surely it should not be too difficult to squeeze SE out of that budget. There are plenty of suggestions on FT on how that is done.
3. I am one of those who dislike cutbacks on mid-tier benefits. I stand against SEs who believe such cuts advantage them. They don't in the long run. For example, by introducing co-pay at the 50K level, AC added co-pay to its MM program. Now, SEMMers are upset. I hope mid-tiers don't campaign against SE qualification/benefits. Who knows, they may accidently find themselves there.
May 24, 2014, 1:05 pm
#758
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: YVR
Programs: E50K, *Gold, WS Gold,VIA Premier, VIPorter
Posts: 463
For the rouge A319s, why did you go with 3x3 Euro-J seating for premium rouge instead of 2x2 seating, especially if you are selling it as a business class and not as a premium economy? Seems like the middle blocked seat is just wasted space at the expense of comfort.
Actually, after typing the above, I reviewed the seat layout for these aircraft again, and it now shows 2x2 seating. Are you changing out the seats or is this a misrepresentation? The booking engine still shows 3x3. http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fl...-100rouge.html
Actually, after typing the above, I reviewed the seat layout for these aircraft again, and it now shows 2x2 seating. Are you changing out the seats or is this a misrepresentation? The booking engine still shows 3x3. http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fl...-100rouge.html
May 24, 2014, 1:10 pm
#759
Join Date: Feb 2006
Programs: various
Posts: 623
True, that is a change that took place this year to some of the UA fare classes but UA is still currently offering economy return in 'W' for instance - (100% AQM): YYZ-SYD-YYZ for $2069CAD ai or YYZ-SIN-YYZ for $2100 ai.
May 24, 2014, 1:21 pm
#760
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC
Programs: Aeroplan 35K, Hertz Gold
Posts: 1,289
Yes, however the seat map graphic went from showing a blocked middle seat to showing no middle seat and each seat is shown graphically as being wider than the economy seats. I don't think this is an accurate representation of the product offered.
May 24, 2014, 1:23 pm
#761
Join Date: Feb 2006
Programs: various
Posts: 623
1. I know there is a strong correlation between spend and mileage. That is why many Airlines use mileage as a surrogate for spend. There are probably outliers in the fit but as the case with outliers, they constitute a negligible percentage of the total population.
2. It is a myth that most SEs buy the cheapest upgradable fares. On the contrary, this group includes some of the most sophisticated travelers. Many buy expensive fares such as B and O to improve their upgrade chances on long haul trips. They actually want to upgrade at booking. They are lots out there who buy J, Z, C....AC knows that the so-called bottom feeder group is too small to base policy.
2. If one spends 30K+ on fares annually, surely it should not be too difficult to squeeze SE out of that budget. There are plenty of suggestions on FT on how that is done.
3. I am one of those who dislike cutbacks on mid-tier benefits. I stand against SEs who believe such cuts advantage them. They don't in the long run. For example, by introducing co-pay at the 50K level, AC added co-pay to its MM program. Now, SEMMers are upset. I hope mid-tiers don't campaign against SE qualification/benefits. Who knows, they may accidently find themselves there.
2. It is a myth that most SEs buy the cheapest upgradable fares. On the contrary, this group includes some of the most sophisticated travelers. Many buy expensive fares such as B and O to improve their upgrade chances on long haul trips. They actually want to upgrade at booking. They are lots out there who buy J, Z, C....AC knows that the so-called bottom feeder group is too small to base policy.
2. If one spends 30K+ on fares annually, surely it should not be too difficult to squeeze SE out of that budget. There are plenty of suggestions on FT on how that is done.
3. I am one of those who dislike cutbacks on mid-tier benefits. I stand against SEs who believe such cuts advantage them. They don't in the long run. For example, by introducing co-pay at the 50K level, AC added co-pay to its MM program. Now, SEMMers are upset. I hope mid-tiers don't campaign against SE qualification/benefits. Who knows, they may accidently find themselves there.
Me personally - I suppose I could eek out SE with my spend but I don't do anything to add mileage - it's straight there and back, the simplest and fastest route for me and the most I've been able to attain in mileage is 75K a few years back. I don't know how some of you guys do it without going stir crazy! (that's also why you should get the top benefits of course - legitimate frequent fliers that is, not bottom feeders)
I definitely would not want SE's to lose benefits and I'm not suggesting that - so long as they are truly legitimate valuable AC SE's.
BTW you have got the right idea too about the erosion of mid-tier benefits - you guys may not always be pulling SE mileage either.......................
Anyhow I would still be interested in Ben Smiths perspective on the erosion of mid-tiers in my kind of situation.
May 24, 2014, 1:27 pm
#762
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,222
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.666 Mobile Safari/534.8+)
From the time I learned about upgrades I've always maintained that airlines should use a simple 2 tier priority system for *all* benefits. I suspect that in their heart almost all FFers think the same way.
The 2 tiers are:
1. Me
2. Everyone else
Originally Posted by canadiancow
The 2 tiers are:
1. Me
2. Everyone else
May 24, 2014, 1:36 pm
#763
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,331
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.666 Mobile Safari/534.8+)
From the time I learned about upgrades I've always maintained that airlines should use a simple 2 tier priority system for *all* benefits. I suspect that in their heart almost all FFers think the same way.
The 2 tiers are:
1. Me
2. Everyone else
From the time I learned about upgrades I've always maintained that airlines should use a simple 2 tier priority system for *all* benefits. I suspect that in their heart almost all FFers think the same way.
The 2 tiers are:
1. Me
2. Everyone else
In United's system, I'd be fine with group 2 IF credit cards were not in 2.
May 24, 2014, 2:00 pm
#764
Join Date: May 2014
Programs: AC Elite 50K
Posts: 367
How is this for treating your SE?
Online checked in at t-23 with eupgrade on Waitlist. 1 exec seat available. No LMU offered. When I went to check my bag no exec seat. "Someone bought it, sir". I said "for 3300$?" She says "no sir they are only 199$ for LMU.
Am I pissed? You betcha!
You are letting any tom, dick and Harry ahead buy a seat and don't even bother to offer it for purchase on checkin to someone on the upgrade list? Is that supposed to punish us for requesting Waitlist upgrades?
That is not what I call loyalty management.
M
Online checked in at t-23 with eupgrade on Waitlist. 1 exec seat available. No LMU offered. When I went to check my bag no exec seat. "Someone bought it, sir". I said "for 3300$?" She says "no sir they are only 199$ for LMU.
Am I pissed? You betcha!
You are letting any tom, dick and Harry ahead buy a seat and don't even bother to offer it for purchase on checkin to someone on the upgrade list? Is that supposed to punish us for requesting Waitlist upgrades?
That is not what I call loyalty management.
M
The way the system is set up - and I have had this happen several times - is for LMU (which I do buy when I run out of credits), to not be possible at all, on ANY segment once you e-upgrade 1 segment.
I was flying to Vancouver and I had 6 credits left (flex) LMU was available on check in for both legs. So I didn't finish the checkin, went into the eupgrade and secured an upgrade from Halifax to YVR. ( All of this happened in one minute) Then I went to checkin. Error. Error. Error. Wouldn't sell the LMU (this has happened a couple of times.) So there I am couldnt buy the $500 LMU on YYZ ->YVR because I'd eupgraded YHZ-> YYZ. So instead of getting $500 from me, Air Canada got $0.00 and I flew economy. The real kicker is YYZ->YVR was upped to a 767 and the business cabin flew 50% empty.
Bringing me to my point. You should fix the system. Its costing you money.
May 24, 2014, 2:12 pm
#765
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto
Programs: UA 1K, AC MM E75, Marriott LT Ti, IHG Dia Amb, Hyatt Glob
Posts: 15,521
What if you had bought LMU for YYZ-YVR first then requested the YHZ-YYZ upgrade? Or can you not use ecredits after you've checked in? Can you cancel the check in after buying LMU (and still keep the LMU)?