The R Games
May 3, 2020, 6:17 pm
#1936
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: I'm From Here
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Posts: 4,567
There are so many things that go into a fare purchase/possibility of upgrade decision. I typically by flight passes due to higher booking class for Flex fares and less eupgrade credits needed per trip.
As a SE I only buy Flex for domestic travel since I always get upgraded as SE on domestic flights that I take with Flex fares (pass product) or I am flying on single cabin aircraft where no upgrade can be had. I used to buy Latitude for domestic but I have so many eupgrade credits left over at year end, that there has been no Latitude value proposition as my flights are usually booked within 14 days of flight with guaranteed upgrade and very few changes ever needed so I always got upgraded even on Flex.
I typically buy Latitude (pass product) for transborder sun destinations since the price differential is not consequential and allows me to book short notice (most of my trips) and cancel with no penalty. Eupgrades seem tighter on these routes when flying on cheaper fares.
For intercontinental flights, I always book PE now as it moves me up the upgrade ladder when competing with so many others. No failure there yet either so my approach is working for all flights in recent years. In almost 30 years of flying regularly with AC, I have only ever missed 2 upgrades on intercontinental flights but that was intentional on my part. I could have upgraded if I had waited a day or taken a different (longer) routing but timing was more important than the upgrade.
If I was Prestige, I might think twice about paying higher fares for two reasons--really not flying that much and no prospect for higher status. Use the money saved to buy first class (often not a big increase from econo when booking 30 days out) on transborder flights on other airlines.
(which is what I often do for non-sun destinations)
Everyone has there reasons for what they see as a value proposition. The only one that matters is the one that works best for you and the level of comfort you desire.
As a SE I only buy Flex for domestic travel since I always get upgraded as SE on domestic flights that I take with Flex fares (pass product) or I am flying on single cabin aircraft where no upgrade can be had. I used to buy Latitude for domestic but I have so many eupgrade credits left over at year end, that there has been no Latitude value proposition as my flights are usually booked within 14 days of flight with guaranteed upgrade and very few changes ever needed so I always got upgraded even on Flex.
I typically buy Latitude (pass product) for transborder sun destinations since the price differential is not consequential and allows me to book short notice (most of my trips) and cancel with no penalty. Eupgrades seem tighter on these routes when flying on cheaper fares.
For intercontinental flights, I always book PE now as it moves me up the upgrade ladder when competing with so many others. No failure there yet either so my approach is working for all flights in recent years. In almost 30 years of flying regularly with AC, I have only ever missed 2 upgrades on intercontinental flights but that was intentional on my part. I could have upgraded if I had waited a day or taken a different (longer) routing but timing was more important than the upgrade.
If I was Prestige, I might think twice about paying higher fares for two reasons--really not flying that much and no prospect for higher status. Use the money saved to buy first class (often not a big increase from econo when booking 30 days out) on transborder flights on other airlines.
(which is what I often do for non-sun destinations)Everyone has there reasons for what they see as a value proposition. The only one that matters is the one that works best for you and the level of comfort you desire.
I have noticed with the introduction of P fares, that they are cheap enough, relative to Flex or Comfort that they are worth the price.
May 3, 2020, 10:50 pm
#1937
Moderator, Air Canada; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2015
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Do many people buy more expensive fares just to improve their chances for clearing an eUpgrade ? I guess if one is an SE100K they are very likely to get upgraded due to their higher status being a factor in the upgrade algorithm. So the higher one's status, the stronger is the temptation to buy more expensive fares to be able to use the eUpgrades
Also, looking back at 2013 when I was E35K, I missed a YYZ-YUL and YYZ-SFO before I became E50K.
I cleared:
[...]
So the idea that low status can't get upgrades is wrong. Some of those were M fares booked within my window, but a bunch were gate upgrades or other tickets booked months out with no real insight into loads.
I cleared:
[...]
So the idea that low status can't get upgrades is wrong. Some of those were M fares booked within my window, but a bunch were gate upgrades or other tickets booked months out with no real insight into loads.
The really confusing part to me is that, unless a bunch of those are Latitude, the eUps don't make sense. I think those were the days of the simpler Up chart where low Flex in North America was mostly 10 or 4 depending on distance, wasn't it? If that's the case, that's 134 eUps to get all those flights in J if they were all in low Flex. So either there were a bunch of M or Latitude fares that required a lot fewer credits, or you had some sugar daddy upgrading you?
I don't want to turn this in to a urinating match about the details of what you upgraded and how, because that's not the point, but given that we have someone very new to the whole concept of eUps, I think it's important to be realistic. P25Ks get 20 credits. AC seems to have nuked the detailed eUp chart, but with many flights within North America require 10+ eUps, and international ones even more (TATL and TPAC typically 26 for most Flex fares, is it? 11 for higher ones?). So the typical P25K, who likely isn't buying Latitude or CO/FL MUH, isn't going to be able to upgrade very many flights - just basic math.
Even if someone does have the credits and has a decent fare, all the E35/50/75Ks and SEs will be ahead of them in line.
I'm certainly not saying it's impossible for a P25K to get a few upgrades, but I also think we should be trying to convey a sense of what's realistic.
You're right. I was doing a dummy booking for AC662 YUL-YHZ on June 11th Standard fare and noticed AC is not charging for advance seat selection and thought it was due to my status. After your post, I tried as an anonymous guest and they sill don't charge for advance seat selection, contrary to my expectation and past experiences.
May 3, 2020, 11:42 pm
#1938
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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Those were all as 35K? That's 25.5K of AQM at 100% mileage for Flex.
The really confusing part to me is that, unless a bunch of those are Latitude, the eUps don't make sense. I think those were the days of the simpler Up chart where low Flex in North America was mostly 10 or 4 depending on distance, wasn't it? If that's the case, that's 134 eUps to get all those flights in J if they were all in low Flex. So either there were a bunch of M or Latitude fares that required a lot fewer credits, or you had some sugar daddy upgrading you?
I don't want to turn this in to a urinating match about the details of what you upgraded and how, because that's not the point, but given that we have someone very new to the whole concept of eUps, I think it's important to be realistic. P25Ks get 20 credits. AC seems to have nuked the detailed eUp chart, but with many flights within North America require 10+ eUps, and international ones even more (TATL and TPAC typically 26 for most Flex fares, is it? 11 for higher ones?). So the typical P25K, who likely isn't buying Latitude or CO/FL MUH, isn't going to be able to upgrade very many flights - just basic math.
Even if someone does have the credits and has a decent fare, all the E35/50/75Ks and SEs will be ahead of them in line.
I'm certainly not saying it's impossible for a P25K to get a few upgrades, but I also think we should be trying to convey a sense of what's realistic.
The really confusing part to me is that, unless a bunch of those are Latitude, the eUps don't make sense. I think those were the days of the simpler Up chart where low Flex in North America was mostly 10 or 4 depending on distance, wasn't it? If that's the case, that's 134 eUps to get all those flights in J if they were all in low Flex. So either there were a bunch of M or Latitude fares that required a lot fewer credits, or you had some sugar daddy upgrading you?
I don't want to turn this in to a urinating match about the details of what you upgraded and how, because that's not the point, but given that we have someone very new to the whole concept of eUps, I think it's important to be realistic. P25Ks get 20 credits. AC seems to have nuked the detailed eUp chart, but with many flights within North America require 10+ eUps, and international ones even more (TATL and TPAC typically 26 for most Flex fares, is it? 11 for higher ones?). So the typical P25K, who likely isn't buying Latitude or CO/FL MUH, isn't going to be able to upgrade very many flights - just basic math.
Even if someone does have the credits and has a decent fare, all the E35/50/75Ks and SEs will be ahead of them in line.
I'm certainly not saying it's impossible for a P25K to get a few upgrades, but I also think we should be trying to convey a sense of what's realistic.
I don't know how you're calculating eUps, but it's not all 4 or 10, and it's certainly not per-segment.
Things like LGA-YOW-YHZ-YYT were in EYWv1, and I think that one cost 6 eUps in low Flex? So 6 eUps for 3 segments, which avearges to 2 per segment, which is likely lower than the 4 you used as your minimum. I was doing a lot of YYZ-YUL-YVR-SFO etc. back then, so you should generally assume anything that isn't A-B-A is a connection.
They were all Flex. Most of the transcons were M (4 eUps), but everything shorter and some of the transcons were low Flex. 2013 was when they had a summer promotion with a 14 day window for M class, but 1. I didn't clear all those flights and 2. I think that might have been one SFO-YYZ round-trip for me. The rest were the basic 3? day window.
Also, I did have a "sugar daddy" for some of them, as SEs had 4 nominee slots back then. But I specifically remember one of my "daddy" eUps was a gate upgrade of YYZ-YVR on a wide-body on a Sunday afternoon, which FT had led me to believe was an impossible gate upgrade for an E35K.
We also had more eUps back then, but all that meant is it was MUCH more likely an SE would have eUps to spare for short-haul flights. I'd assume upgrades as a low-tier were harder in 2013 than they are now.
I'm not trying to say a P25K is going to get copay-free eUps on all their TPAC X-class bookings. The real point I want to make is that if you request an upgrade on every flight you take, you will likely not have sufficient eUps to last the year. You may not clear on every flight you request, but you will clear enough to exhaust the eUps.
May 26, 2020, 8:36 pm
#1939
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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I was just chatting with someone about my upgrade stats, so I figured I'd post them here so I can link them easily.
It's important to note that 2015 was the year they increased eUp requirements and decreased the number given out, and the proportion of my gate upgrades plus failed upgrades drastically fell after that. 2016 was the only year I didn't have enough eUps to request all my flights, because the bovine joined me on EYW and was only P25K (hence the opups).
Having looked over this data, it just reaffirms that I liked the eUp changes, as it's been better for me.
I wish I'd had more data points prior to 2014, but I don't think my SE status kicked in until late (December?) 2013, so it's not quite a fair comparison, though I had 30 requests, 9 gate upgrades, and 6 failed upgrades that year. But that was 50% going to the gate (and not always clearing), versus 37% in 2014 as SE the whole time, where my worst has been 29% in 2017 and 2018, but the 2014 failure rate was much higher than any other year.
This has also made me realize I should track the difference between clearing at time of request, and sometime between request and gate.
There were also a few times where I had a last minute IRROPS rebooking onto a J0 flight, and even though it had eUpgraded P25Ks, I didn't clear. Or other flights that weren't J0, but had upgrade people at the window such that they cleared even though they would have lower priority. So not all uncleared upgrades were the same. On one trip, I had YYZ-YYT where I was rebooked at the last minute and didn't clear, but a YHZ-YYZ where I'd had the upgrade request in for 14 days and never cleared.
Code:
2020: Requests 4 Advance 4 Gate 0 No 0 Total Success 4 2019: Requests 20 Advance 20 Gate 0 No 0 Total Success 20 2018: Requests 17 Advance 12 Gate 2 No 3 Total Success 14 2017: Requests 17 Advance 12 Gate 4 No 1 Total Success 16 2016: Requests 18 Advance 15 Gate 1 No 2 Total Success 16 Operational 2 (YQR-YXE) 2015: Requests 27 Advance 25 Gate 2 No 0 Total Success 27 2014: Requests 27 Advance 17 Gate 5 No 5 Total Success 22
It's important to note that 2015 was the year they increased eUp requirements and decreased the number given out, and the proportion of my gate upgrades plus failed upgrades drastically fell after that. 2016 was the only year I didn't have enough eUps to request all my flights, because the bovine joined me on EYW and was only P25K (hence the opups).
Having looked over this data, it just reaffirms that I liked the eUp changes, as it's been better for me.
I wish I'd had more data points prior to 2014, but I don't think my SE status kicked in until late (December?) 2013, so it's not quite a fair comparison, though I had 30 requests, 9 gate upgrades, and 6 failed upgrades that year. But that was 50% going to the gate (and not always clearing), versus 37% in 2014 as SE the whole time, where my worst has been 29% in 2017 and 2018, but the 2014 failure rate was much higher than any other year.
This has also made me realize I should track the difference between clearing at time of request, and sometime between request and gate.
There were also a few times where I had a last minute IRROPS rebooking onto a J0 flight, and even though it had eUpgraded P25Ks, I didn't clear. Or other flights that weren't J0, but had upgrade people at the window such that they cleared even though they would have lower priority. So not all uncleared upgrades were the same. On one trip, I had YYZ-YYT where I was rebooked at the last minute and didn't clear, but a YHZ-YYZ where I'd had the upgrade request in for 14 days and never cleared.
Dec 9, 2020, 1:35 pm
#1940
Join Date: May 2015
Location: YUL
Programs: AC 50K, *A Gold
Posts: 301
If I clear a Premium Economy using E-upgrade because Business is R0 (I am waitlisted). If R becomes available will I be moved to J ? Or once I clear PY I cannot move to J?
Also, at time of booking R was 3 now it's 0. Does priority go at time of booking or when the clearance window open up?
Also, at time of booking R was 3 now it's 0. Does priority go at time of booking or when the clearance window open up?
Dec 18, 2020, 2:49 pm
#1941
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But I could be wrong given the new system... but methinks this has remained the same.
Dec 18, 2020, 3:00 pm
#1942
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You can only request one cabin.
At the gate, a J upgrade behaves the way you want, but not before then.
One (maybe the only one?) piece of feedback I submitted when they were collecting thoughts about the new program was to do it more UA-style where you can check one or two boxes. If you clear PY instantly, you can still clear J later.
I pay for Y, and I really want J, but I'd rather have PY than Y.
At the gate, a J upgrade behaves the way you want, but not before then.
One (maybe the only one?) piece of feedback I submitted when they were collecting thoughts about the new program was to do it more UA-style where you can check one or two boxes. If you clear PY instantly, you can still clear J later.
I pay for Y, and I really want J, but I'd rather have PY than Y.
Dec 18, 2020, 3:03 pm
#1943
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Dec 18, 2020, 3:25 pm
#1944
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But that means a 25K who requests PY at their window (3 days?) may get the PY seat before an SE who requests J at their window, if they fail to clear into J.
Dec 18, 2020, 4:24 pm
#1945
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Under the new system, at the gate, if you put in a J request, you show on the list for J and PY. If there's a J seat for you, you get J. If not, but there is a PY seat, you get PY.
But that means a 25K who requests PY at their window (3 days?) may get the PY seat before an SE who requests J at their window, if they fail to clear into J.
But that means a 25K who requests PY at their window (3 days?) may get the PY seat before an SE who requests J at their window, if they fail to clear into J.
Dec 18, 2020, 5:31 pm
#1946
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,946
I know couple times last year when I tried to upgrade from Y to J cabin, gate agent said she would offer me PY for sure incase someone trumped me. I remember I was competing for the remaining one J seat with someone who had lower status but was already in PY restricted fare vs me in either Y or B fare (can't remember for sure) and SE MM status. Maybe the gate agent was just being nice to offer me that PY guarantee even though old system didn't automatically put me on upgrade list both J and PY.
Dec 18, 2020, 10:05 pm
#1947
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The old system cleared J requests into J, then PY requests into PY, then J requests into PY.
The new system seems much more equitable.
This would be roughly April 2020 onward.
The new system seems much more equitable.
This would be roughly April 2020 onward.
Dec 18, 2020, 10:07 pm
#1948
Moderator, Air Canada; FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Dec 18, 2020, 11:22 pm
#1949
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: YYZ
Programs: Aeroplan 50K/Star Alliance Gold, Accor Gold, base level Marriott/Hyatt/Hilton
Posts: 658
I sound like a FOTSG, but I've almost never used eUps and have (surprisingly) cleared every single time I've requested an upgrade.
1. If I book a Latitude fare and request an eUpgrade, and R=0 but, for instance, P=2, would I clear the upgrade anyway?
2. Is R capped at 9 tix per flight; in other words, do the first 9 people to clear get confirmed and everyone else gets put on the standby list? This is a non-issue on YYZ-ZRH, slightly bigger issue on the 8am YYZ-YVR run.
3. Do AC release more R space 1/2/24/48 hours before departure?
1. If I book a Latitude fare and request an eUpgrade, and R=0 but, for instance, P=2, would I clear the upgrade anyway?
2. Is R capped at 9 tix per flight; in other words, do the first 9 people to clear get confirmed and everyone else gets put on the standby list? This is a non-issue on YYZ-ZRH, slightly bigger issue on the 8am YYZ-YVR run.
3. Do AC release more R space 1/2/24/48 hours before departure?
Dec 19, 2020, 12:08 am
#1950
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I sound like a FOTSG, but I've almost never used eUps and have (surprisingly) cleared every single time I've requested an upgrade.
1. If I book a Latitude fare and request an eUpgrade, and R=0 but, for instance, P=2, would I clear the upgrade anyway?
2. Is R capped at 9 tix per flight; in other words, do the first 9 people to clear get confirmed and everyone else gets put on the standby list? This is a non-issue on YYZ-ZRH, slightly bigger issue on the 8am YYZ-YVR run.
3. Do AC release more R space 1/2/24/48 hours before departure?
1. If I book a Latitude fare and request an eUpgrade, and R=0 but, for instance, P=2, would I clear the upgrade anyway?
2. Is R capped at 9 tix per flight; in other words, do the first 9 people to clear get confirmed and everyone else gets put on the standby list? This is a non-issue on YYZ-ZRH, slightly bigger issue on the 8am YYZ-YVR run.
3. Do AC release more R space 1/2/24/48 hours before departure?
2)That's not how it works. For any given booking class, the max. number displayed is 9. The actual number (only known by AC) may be higher. There is no "hard cap" on the number of R seats made available.
3) R availability is actively managed based on availability / predicted loads / etc., so the answer is "sometimes, yes". At the gate, R availability is irrelevant since all remaining seats are filled according to the (upgrade) waitlist.