p.s. Operations Transitioning to EWR on October 25, 2015
Jun 16, 2015, 2:06 pm
#196
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: NYC
Programs: UA MileagePlus 2MM
Posts: 1,567
I think it is a smart decision...
POSITIVE
1. Passengers who arrive on Star Alliance into JFK aren't, for the most part, taking a connection on PS flights to LAX or SFO.
2. Consolidating everything at EWR makes sense if they are offering almost hourly transcon service to LAX and SFO. Much better frequency.
3. It sounds like while initially not all flights will have lay-flat seats, eventually all will. All the PS fleet plus the 757's no longer flying transatlantic at the beginning, and a hint at more aircraft being configured with lay-flat.
4. AA, DL, VX and JetBlue all offer premium service from JFK - UA will have EWR to itself.
5. UA has a large wealthy catchment area in northern NJ - some of them have probably gone to JFK in the past to get the lay flat seats so UA should win those pax.
6. EWR has several rail option linking it it to the WTC and Penn Station in Manhattan. Although I seem to recall the the the monorail from EWR NJ Transit/Amtrak to terminals is being completely replaced.
NEGATIVE
1. EWR is a PITA to get to from Manhattan if between the hours of 3pm to 7pm. Getting into Manhattan off redeyes is awful too, by car/taxi.
2. The Pulaski Skybridge is closed inbound to Manhattan for at least another year and a half. You can still take 78 to reach the Holland Tunnel if you need to get to Lower Manhattan and Wall Street.
3. People who work/live in Midtown and Uptown who used to fly UA may abandon UA, as will several pax on Long Island.
I think overall UA will financially do better - depends on how many corporate accounts they lose and win because of this. Not that any NY airport ever lands in the top 20 list but I suppose JFK is our marquee airport....Really have to emphasize how horrible this is for the staff at JFK who the radio report (for what it is worth) said were being let go - there are some real gems at JFK who have been there for decades - I left last Thursday and several were at the 6:02am SFO departure gate still being professional and thanking us for our business. I hope they get good severance packages.
JFK has been on a downward spiral for years in terms of UA presence which is why the CO merger really came about as a good thing for those who had remained loyal. LHR, NRT, GRU, HKG all disappeared years ago, the only domestic destination was IAD which was a joke and perhaps a flight to ORD way back after UA bought PA's LHR authority. UA just never had the presence to make it work at JFK. So while this is painful, and hard to imagine not seeing a UA plane at JFK any longer, I unfortunately think this makes sense. And there is still LGA.
Can't wait for the threads to begin, if they haven't already, "Will my flight from EWR to LAX/SFO have layflat seats..."...
Adam
1. Passengers who arrive on Star Alliance into JFK aren't, for the most part, taking a connection on PS flights to LAX or SFO.
2. Consolidating everything at EWR makes sense if they are offering almost hourly transcon service to LAX and SFO. Much better frequency.
3. It sounds like while initially not all flights will have lay-flat seats, eventually all will. All the PS fleet plus the 757's no longer flying transatlantic at the beginning, and a hint at more aircraft being configured with lay-flat.
4. AA, DL, VX and JetBlue all offer premium service from JFK - UA will have EWR to itself.
5. UA has a large wealthy catchment area in northern NJ - some of them have probably gone to JFK in the past to get the lay flat seats so UA should win those pax.
6. EWR has several rail option linking it it to the WTC and Penn Station in Manhattan. Although I seem to recall the the the monorail from EWR NJ Transit/Amtrak to terminals is being completely replaced.
NEGATIVE
1. EWR is a PITA to get to from Manhattan if between the hours of 3pm to 7pm. Getting into Manhattan off redeyes is awful too, by car/taxi.
2. The Pulaski Skybridge is closed inbound to Manhattan for at least another year and a half. You can still take 78 to reach the Holland Tunnel if you need to get to Lower Manhattan and Wall Street.
3. People who work/live in Midtown and Uptown who used to fly UA may abandon UA, as will several pax on Long Island.
I think overall UA will financially do better - depends on how many corporate accounts they lose and win because of this. Not that any NY airport ever lands in the top 20 list but I suppose JFK is our marquee airport....Really have to emphasize how horrible this is for the staff at JFK who the radio report (for what it is worth) said were being let go - there are some real gems at JFK who have been there for decades - I left last Thursday and several were at the 6:02am SFO departure gate still being professional and thanking us for our business. I hope they get good severance packages.
JFK has been on a downward spiral for years in terms of UA presence which is why the CO merger really came about as a good thing for those who had remained loyal. LHR, NRT, GRU, HKG all disappeared years ago, the only domestic destination was IAD which was a joke and perhaps a flight to ORD way back after UA bought PA's LHR authority. UA just never had the presence to make it work at JFK. So while this is painful, and hard to imagine not seeing a UA plane at JFK any longer, I unfortunately think this makes sense. And there is still LGA.
Can't wait for the threads to begin, if they haven't already, "Will my flight from EWR to LAX/SFO have layflat seats..."...
Adam
Jun 16, 2015, 2:13 pm
#197
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ROC/NYC/MSP/LAX/HKG/SIN
Posts: 3,215
Did they break down during the flight? Well, management decisions from board of directors don't get down to unions that fast. But this is definitely management decision, and right, I bet everyone in JFK will be devastated.
Jun 16, 2015, 2:16 pm
#198
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NYC
Programs: Delta DM, 2MM
Posts: 1,254
I live in Brooklyn (Park Slope) and work at the WTC. Despite my proximity to EWR and the PATH trains, I simply prefer JFK or LGA.
From work: I can take the E train from WTC (where I'll get a seat) and be at Jackson Heights in 35 minutes (for the bus or a cheap cab to LGA) or Jamaica in 45 minutes. No traffic. I got a seat. Relatively reliable service. Trains every 3-5 minutes, etc.
To/From home: There is no connection as easy as JFK-Jamaica Airtrain-LIRR to Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn. It's a piece of CAKE. That can be done in less than 35/40 minutes.
Even when I lived in Columbus Circle, I would never fly out of EWR. Late night arrivals were a guaranteed forever wait for NJ transit schedules, plus a subway ride from NYP or a 90$ cab ride. So, not every midtown west flyer is going to use EWR.
From work: I can take the E train from WTC (where I'll get a seat) and be at Jackson Heights in 35 minutes (for the bus or a cheap cab to LGA) or Jamaica in 45 minutes. No traffic. I got a seat. Relatively reliable service. Trains every 3-5 minutes, etc.
To/From home: There is no connection as easy as JFK-Jamaica Airtrain-LIRR to Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn. It's a piece of CAKE. That can be done in less than 35/40 minutes.
Even when I lived in Columbus Circle, I would never fly out of EWR. Late night arrivals were a guaranteed forever wait for NJ transit schedules, plus a subway ride from NYP or a 90$ cab ride. So, not every midtown west flyer is going to use EWR.
Jun 16, 2015, 2:16 pm
#199
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Programs: AP SE, Bonvoy Plat, HH Gold, EC Executive, Hertz Pres Circle, Avis Pres Club
Posts: 227
AC has about 5 flights a day YYZ-EWR, as well as some flights to YUL and maybe YOW.
Jun 16, 2015, 2:19 pm
#200
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NYC
Programs: DL PM, Marriott Gold, Hertz PC, National Exec
Posts: 6,736
Six of one, half a dozen of the other vs. JFK. From Penn Station, it's just about the same amount of time LIRR/Airtrain to JFK as NYT/Airtrain to EWR. If you're close to the E train, then E/Airtrain to JFK is notably better.
Jun 16, 2015, 2:21 pm
#201
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: London; Bangkok; Las Vegas
Programs: AA Exec Plat; UA MM Gold; Marriott Lifetime Titanium; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,745
Fundamentally, I guess for UA, sure, they can say they're "moving" the flights to EWR. The capacity in November might be A+B, if A is EWR's transcon traffic and B is PS today. In a year its going to be A. People used to flying to JFK are just going to switch carriers, and people who weren't schlepping to EWR aren't going to suddenly do so.
They're not going to be attracting anyone new with this move, its not like they're starting up VNY-TEB.
They're not going to be attracting anyone new with this move, its not like they're starting up VNY-TEB.
To each his own.....I would rather get my work done in my office and know i have a 30 or 40 minute commute than leave my office 2 hours earlier than needed because I may or may not hit traffic. Not saying you're wrong just saying you and I differ on how we would rather spend our time.
I'm from NJ and couldn't agree more. (Love the kidney stone analogy, btw)
I took this route frequently in the past and the trains were far from completely reliable esp in the winter. There goes the option got CPU between the coasts as well for a direct flight. I just don't see the folks from the business sector doing the train route.
I took this route frequently in the past and the trains were far from completely reliable esp in the winter. There goes the option got CPU between the coasts as well for a direct flight. I just don't see the folks from the business sector doing the train route.
Jun 16, 2015, 2:22 pm
#202
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 30
Here's the thing. Getting off the island west into NJ you have two routes: the Lincoln Tunnel and the Holland tunnel. From a midtown office tower the latter too far away to feasibly go to, so you are at the mercy of traffic in the Lincoln Tunnel. If there's some type of lane closure or something you are just SOL sitting there with no recourse hoping traffic lets up.
Getting off the island east? You have the Queensboro bridge and you have the Queens midtown tunnel. If you really need to you can hit the FDR and take the Williamsburg bridge.
Even for downtown folk - they have the holland tunnel, or if they are adventurous, the brooklyn tunnel to the Verrazano bridge. To JFK? They have the brooklyn tunnel, brooklyn bridge, manhattan bridge, and williamsburg bridge
Rush hour traffic is awful everywhere around Manhattan, completely agreed. But goal #1 is to get off the island. After that you can race around street level getting to JFK if you need to
Getting off the island east? You have the Queensboro bridge and you have the Queens midtown tunnel. If you really need to you can hit the FDR and take the Williamsburg bridge.
Even for downtown folk - they have the holland tunnel, or if they are adventurous, the brooklyn tunnel to the Verrazano bridge. To JFK? They have the brooklyn tunnel, brooklyn bridge, manhattan bridge, and williamsburg bridge
Rush hour traffic is awful everywhere around Manhattan, completely agreed. But goal #1 is to get off the island. After that you can race around street level getting to JFK if you need to
Jun 16, 2015, 2:23 pm
#203
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Morris County, NJ
Programs: UA 1K/*G, Avis Pres, Marriott Plat
Posts: 2,305
As a 1K who lives ~20 miles due west of EWR ...
Who flies to SFO and LAX quite a bit ...
THIS ROCKS. ROCKS ROCKS ROCKS.
Just sayin'
Who flies to SFO and LAX quite a bit ...
THIS ROCKS. ROCKS ROCKS ROCKS.
Just sayin'
Jun 16, 2015, 2:23 pm
#204
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Certainly UAs right to abandon JFK, even if it means losing a lot of high end PS customers from NYC, Westchester and southern CT. But they sure should be blocked from selling gates to Delta. Enough of these smug oligopolies where everyone winks but no words are ever spoken about how to raise prices. Fares between EWR and JFK and LA/SFO were rarely the same, with UA demanding a EWR premium for its captive customers. I, for one, will be urging regulators to turn down the gate swap proposal with Delta. How about a nice new, foreign competitor? Fool us 7 times, shame on them. Fool us an 8th time, get out your check book.
Cheers
Howie
Jun 16, 2015, 2:25 pm
#205
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I was there in February. The pre-check line took 15 minutes. The clubs were packed to the gills. And the statistics show that EWR is substantially more prone to air traffic delays.
Jun 16, 2015, 2:29 pm
#206
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Here There Everywhere
Posts: 137
To avoid subway/train/ people mover transfer to EWR during rush hours, take the NY Waterway ferry from Pier 11 Wall street or Uptown at 39th street to Paulus Hook, or Hoboken NJ transit stop, or Port Imperial. Have Uber or taxi pick you up at the ferry stop and go directly to airport. No more Lincoln or Holland tunnel traffic to worry about.
For those who don't want to take the slow people mover at EWR, take taxi to Newark Penn station and board Path train or NJ transit there.
For those who don't want to take the slow people mover at EWR, take taxi to Newark Penn station and board Path train or NJ transit there.
Jun 16, 2015, 2:29 pm
#207
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There you have current management's strategy in a nutshell. Flee competition, retreat to fortress hubs.
Jun 16, 2015, 2:31 pm
#208
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Jun 16, 2015, 2:32 pm
#209
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: LAX
Programs: UA MM | BA Silver
Posts: 7,193
Jun 16, 2015, 2:34 pm
#210
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Washington, D.C.
Programs: UA Premier 1K: PlAAtinum; DL SM, MM; Marriott Gold; CO Plat Emeritus; NW Plat Emeritus
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Certainly UAs right to abandon JFK, even if it means losing a lot of high end PS customers from NYC, Westchester and southern CT. But they sure should be blocked from selling gates to Delta. Enough of these smug oligopolies where everyone winks but no words are ever spoken about how to raise prices. Fares between EWR and JFK and LA/SFO were rarely the same, with UA demanding a EWR premium for its captive customers. I, for one, will be urging regulators to turn down the gate swap proposal with Delta. How about a nice new, foreign competitor? Fool us 7 times, shame on them. Fool us an 8th time, get out your check book.
Hey gov't -- how about enforcing the antitrust laws to the benefit of the people, rather than ignoring them in the interests of powerful lobbies with checkbooks.