United CFO Rainey Implies Certain Elites were "Over Entitled".
May 27, 2012, 7:18 pm
#1186
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ORD
Programs: Newly minted AA EXP Plat., disatisfied UA 1K, Marriott Silver & Hilton Gold
Posts: 704
Three words:
They don't care.
With consolidation, there is limited choice. Will they lose a few customers to AA and DL? Yes. But that is a calculated risk. But between AA being in bankrupcy and DL offering Skypesos, UA will attract replacements. They believe people like FlyerTalkers are not high-margin unless they are high-revenue GS.
If elite customers deliver the same margins as kettles, then they can extract additional revenue from kettles than they can from elites because elites are entitled to additional services that they can sell to kettles. Thus kettles become higher-margin, and they'd rather fill the planes with kettles than with over-entitled elites.
COdbaUA clearly has no interest in loyalty from anyone other than highest revenue customers (GS). It is a fundamental shift in strategy, and unless elite flyers really leave, they will be rewarded by continued loyalty from people who complain but don't really do anything about it.
Total spent on UA in 2012: $0.
They don't care.
With consolidation, there is limited choice. Will they lose a few customers to AA and DL? Yes. But that is a calculated risk. But between AA being in bankrupcy and DL offering Skypesos, UA will attract replacements. They believe people like FlyerTalkers are not high-margin unless they are high-revenue GS.
If elite customers deliver the same margins as kettles, then they can extract additional revenue from kettles than they can from elites because elites are entitled to additional services that they can sell to kettles. Thus kettles become higher-margin, and they'd rather fill the planes with kettles than with over-entitled elites.
COdbaUA clearly has no interest in loyalty from anyone other than highest revenue customers (GS). It is a fundamental shift in strategy, and unless elite flyers really leave, they will be rewarded by continued loyalty from people who complain but don't really do anything about it.
Total spent on UA in 2012: $0.
May 27, 2012, 8:10 pm
#1187
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Virginia, USA
Programs: UA GS/3MM, DL Gold/Million Miler, AA Exec Plat/Million Miler, Emirates Gold
Posts: 153
Three words:
They don't care.
With consolidation, there is limited choice. Will they lose a few customers to AA and DL? Yes. But that is a calculated risk. But between AA being in bankrupcy and DL offering Skypesos, UA will attract replacements. They believe people like FlyerTalkers are not high-margin unless they are high-revenue GS.
If elite customers deliver the same margins as kettles, then they can extract additional revenue from kettles than they can from elites because elites are entitled to additional services that they can sell to kettles. Thus kettles become higher-margin, and they'd rather fill the planes with kettles than with over-entitled elites.
COdbaUA clearly has no interest in loyalty from anyone other than highest revenue customers (GS). It is a fundamental shift in strategy, and unless elite flyers really leave, they will be rewarded by continued loyalty from people who complain but don't really do anything about it.
Total spent on UA in 2012: $0.
They don't care.
With consolidation, there is limited choice. Will they lose a few customers to AA and DL? Yes. But that is a calculated risk. But between AA being in bankrupcy and DL offering Skypesos, UA will attract replacements. They believe people like FlyerTalkers are not high-margin unless they are high-revenue GS.
If elite customers deliver the same margins as kettles, then they can extract additional revenue from kettles than they can from elites because elites are entitled to additional services that they can sell to kettles. Thus kettles become higher-margin, and they'd rather fill the planes with kettles than with over-entitled elites.
COdbaUA clearly has no interest in loyalty from anyone other than highest revenue customers (GS). It is a fundamental shift in strategy, and unless elite flyers really leave, they will be rewarded by continued loyalty from people who complain but don't really do anything about it.
Total spent on UA in 2012: $0.
To be fair I haven't flown UA since April, but as a high rev GS (100-150K annual spend) I was not seeing any attempt by UA to get my loyalty. Am I missing something?
May 27, 2012, 8:17 pm
#1188
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: CA
Programs: UA 1MM
Posts: 243
From a business point of view, I think the whole situation is really strange. I want to return to UA, but not in the present state. The system issues will take years to fix, imo. But - the reparing the attitude towards high revenue pax should not, but strangely everything is going in the "wrong" direction.
May 27, 2012, 10:44 pm
#1189
Join Date: Jul 2004
Programs: AA EXP MM, SPG VIP
Posts: 159
Wow. I wandered back over the COdbaUA forum for the first time in a while to see what was going on and ran into this buzzsaw of a thread. After being both 1K and EXP, I switched to AA as my primary carrier this year due to how well I felt EXP was treated vs 1K. I will make EXP again for next year this week and thought about coming back to COdbaUA to finish out the balance of the year and also make 1K again. Doesn't seem like its worth it with GPUs still consistently ending up in the trash bin at the end of the year and Kettles getting TOD priority.
May 28, 2012, 7:15 am
#1190
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Virginia, USA
Programs: UA GS/3MM, DL Gold/Million Miler, AA Exec Plat/Million Miler, Emirates Gold
Posts: 153
So can I ask UAInsider or any UA rep: what is the value of GS?
Before I board the plane- I have to go through the upgrade lottery process - which was never the case pre 3/3 (I have been GS since the program began, and can count on one finger the # of times I didn't clear over the last few years)
While I board the plane- I am part of a generic group called "elites" (including credit card holders) - so no longer a decent shot at access to carry on bag space
On the plane- no recognition for meal priorities or for anything else. No wifi. So so international First class product not competitive with any non US carrier, swill for coffee, champagne out of wine glasses (why not go all the way- use paper cups?)
In the case of IRROPS, no assurances of being taken care of
So please remind me- whats the value of being a GS?
Before I board the plane- I have to go through the upgrade lottery process - which was never the case pre 3/3 (I have been GS since the program began, and can count on one finger the # of times I didn't clear over the last few years)
While I board the plane- I am part of a generic group called "elites" (including credit card holders) - so no longer a decent shot at access to carry on bag space
On the plane- no recognition for meal priorities or for anything else. No wifi. So so international First class product not competitive with any non US carrier, swill for coffee, champagne out of wine glasses (why not go all the way- use paper cups?)
In the case of IRROPS, no assurances of being taken care of
So please remind me- whats the value of being a GS?
May 28, 2012, 7:42 am
#1191
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ORD
Programs: Newly minted AA EXP Plat., disatisfied UA 1K, Marriott Silver & Hilton Gold
Posts: 704
So can I ask UAInsider or any UA rep: what is the value of GS?
Before I board the plane- I have to go through the upgrade lottery process - which was never the case pre 3/3 (I have been GS since the program began, and can count on one finger the # of times I didn't clear over the last few years)
While I board the plane- I am part of a generic group called "elites" (including credit card holders) - so no longer a decent shot at access to carry on bag space
On the plane- no recognition for meal priorities or for anything else. No wifi. So so international First class product not competitive with any non US carrier, swill for coffee, champagne out of wine glasses (why not go all the way- use paper cups?)
In the case of IRROPS, no assurances of being taken care of
So please remind me- whats the value of being a GS?
Before I board the plane- I have to go through the upgrade lottery process - which was never the case pre 3/3 (I have been GS since the program began, and can count on one finger the # of times I didn't clear over the last few years)
While I board the plane- I am part of a generic group called "elites" (including credit card holders) - so no longer a decent shot at access to carry on bag space
On the plane- no recognition for meal priorities or for anything else. No wifi. So so international First class product not competitive with any non US carrier, swill for coffee, champagne out of wine glasses (why not go all the way- use paper cups?)
In the case of IRROPS, no assurances of being taken care of
So please remind me- whats the value of being a GS?
May 28, 2012, 8:09 am
#1192
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Virginia, USA
Programs: UA GS/3MM, DL Gold/Million Miler, AA Exec Plat/Million Miler, Emirates Gold
Posts: 153
As we understand it, UAInsider and anyone speaking for COdbaUA is not permitted to give a straight answer. Per the CFO, these would all be considered over entitlements. You are likely a passenger the airline is not chasing after and will continue to make more miserable in the future. UA wants the Customer they don't have now that they can up-sell all the way up until the flight. Elites offer little up-sell pas the initial sale, which UA assumes it has a lock on. If they are right, they have a good revenue model. If they are wrong, we can only speculate on where this decision will take them in the future.
Lets see- I personally spend 100-150K annually on airfares (this UA can check from their data), most of it Y/C/F, and they don't want me?
May 28, 2012, 8:20 am
#1193
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NY Metro Area
Programs: AA 2MM Yay!, UA MM, Costco General Member
Posts: 49,038
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_1_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9B206 Safari/7534.48.3)
---------
Lets see- I personally spend 100-150K annually on airfares (this UA can check from their data), most of it Y/C/F, and they don't want me?
I don't think that's precisely the case. I think they think that you are so vested with your GS status that you won't change carriers.
Originally Posted by Jetlagged
As we understand it, UAInsider and anyone speaking for COdbaUA is not permitted to give a straight answer. Per the CFO, these would all be considered over entitlements. You are likely a passenger the airline is not chasing after and will continue to make more miserable in the future. UA wants the Customer they don't have now that they can up-sell all the way up until the flight. Elites offer little up-sell pas the initial sale, which UA assumes it has a lock on. If they are right, they have a good revenue model. If they are wrong, we can only speculate on where this decision will take them in the future.
Lets see- I personally spend 100-150K annually on airfares (this UA can check from their data), most of it Y/C/F, and they don't want me?
May 28, 2012, 8:21 am
#1194
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
So can I ask UAInsider or any UA rep: what is the value of GS?
Before I board the plane- I have to go through the upgrade lottery process - which was never the case pre 3/3 (I have been GS since the program began, and can count on one finger the # of times I didn't clear over the last few years)
While I board the plane- I am part of a generic group called "elites" (including credit card holders) - so no longer a decent shot at access to carry on bag space
On the plane- no recognition for meal priorities or for anything else. No wifi. So so international First class product not competitive with any non US carrier, swill for coffee, champagne out of wine glasses (why not go all the way- use paper cups?)
In the case of IRROPS, no assurances of being taken care of
So please remind me- whats the value of being a GS?
Before I board the plane- I have to go through the upgrade lottery process - which was never the case pre 3/3 (I have been GS since the program began, and can count on one finger the # of times I didn't clear over the last few years)
While I board the plane- I am part of a generic group called "elites" (including credit card holders) - so no longer a decent shot at access to carry on bag space
On the plane- no recognition for meal priorities or for anything else. No wifi. So so international First class product not competitive with any non US carrier, swill for coffee, champagne out of wine glasses (why not go all the way- use paper cups?)
In the case of IRROPS, no assurances of being taken care of
So please remind me- whats the value of being a GS?
Oh, and if you don't like champagne in wine glasses, just wait until they take away the ceramic coffee mugs. I'm waiting for that one, since it seems to be the norm on CO metal. But, anyway, this is only relevant if you drink tea, because the coffee is inedible now.
May 28, 2012, 8:25 am
#1195
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_1_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9B206 Safari/7534.48.3)
I don't think that's precisely the case. I think they think that you are so vested with your GS status that you won't change carriers.
I don't think that's precisely the case. I think they think that you are so vested with your GS status that you won't change carriers.
Go find the recent post under the "Wow, they're sure selling a lot of upgrades" thread.
Someone there shared some information on how SHARES works.
It seems from the post that SHARES has a secret algorithm that nobody is allowed to talk about. That algorithm makes offers based on how much they think they can extract from you.
The perverse logic of this algorithm seems to be that it punishes high value flyers until they can't take it anymore and choose to leave UA for another airline.
If you fly a lot, if you spend a lot, then it knows that you shouldn't get any offers, because it knows they've got your money anyway.
If you fly rarely, and/or you fly on super-cheap fares, it'll make offers, because it knows it can get more out of you. If you're on a $129 fare in the back of the plane in a middle seat next to the bathroom that hasn't been cleaned in 65 years, surely you'll pay $14 to move to E+ or $29 to push a GS out of F.
But, if you're a GS, who pays $1,400 for the same flight, there isn't anything more they can sell to you.
Since the logic doesn't look at lifetime spend, but only values a customer for "how much more" it can extract out of your wallet "right now" this means that high value customers are worthless.
Based on that recent post (plus reading here plus recent experience) this seems to be where we've ended up.
And, how dare you suggest you deserve anything. That is over-entitlement. If you don't fix that attitude, Rainey will surely take the next opportunity to slap you down in public.
May 28, 2012, 8:38 am
#1196
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Programs: UA 1K 3 Million/ex-many year GS, AA PLT/2 Mil, AS MVPG, HH Dia, Starwood Life Plat, Hertz PC
Posts: 1,401
So can I ask UAInsider or any UA rep: what is the value of GS?
Before I board the plane- I have to go through the upgrade lottery process - which was never the case pre 3/3 (I have been GS since the program began, and can count on one finger the # of times I didn't clear over the last few years)
While I board the plane- I am part of a generic group called "elites" (including credit card holders) - so no longer a decent shot at access to carry on bag space
On the plane- no recognition for meal priorities or for anything else. No wifi. So so international First class product not competitive with any non US carrier, swill for coffee, champagne out of wine glasses (why not go all the way- use paper cups?)
In the case of IRROPS, no assurances of being taken care of
So please remind me- whats the value of being a GS?
Before I board the plane- I have to go through the upgrade lottery process - which was never the case pre 3/3 (I have been GS since the program began, and can count on one finger the # of times I didn't clear over the last few years)
While I board the plane- I am part of a generic group called "elites" (including credit card holders) - so no longer a decent shot at access to carry on bag space
On the plane- no recognition for meal priorities or for anything else. No wifi. So so international First class product not competitive with any non US carrier, swill for coffee, champagne out of wine glasses (why not go all the way- use paper cups?)
In the case of IRROPS, no assurances of being taken care of
So please remind me- whats the value of being a GS?
And lest she think that such change of behavior won't happen I will observe that a decade ago I had an incident with AA where they totally blew their service and then weren't even appologetic about it (you can probably find the write up in the archives here). The upshot of that was that I said I would stop using AA as my go to carrier and only fly them when they were the best choice. I was EXP at the time (not that I am an AA 2MM) and since then I have probably flown less than 1 trip per year with AA because I would choose them only when scheduling was much better than UA.
I'm not so much angry with UA -that seems a pointless emotion to hold toward a corporation - as sad at the transformation of an entity that generally served my needs so well that it made doing business with them generally a pleasure.
Last edited by pdx1M; May 28, 2012 at 8:44 am
May 28, 2012, 9:14 am
#1197
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Virginia, USA
Programs: UA GS/3MM, DL Gold/Million Miler, AA Exec Plat/Million Miler, Emirates Gold
Posts: 153
As the chinese allegedly say "May you live in interesting times".
It will be very interesting to see how UA does with its transaction based approach vs every other player in the travel/hospitality industry who segments and rewards their customers based on their loyalty.
As for me, I haven't flown United domestic since April beginning. Wont fly UA international either for my upcoming overseas trips. Will cause me inconvenience on some routings, but I will be able to access OneW First lounges to compensate.
It will be very interesting to see how UA does with its transaction based approach vs every other player in the travel/hospitality industry who segments and rewards their customers based on their loyalty.
As for me, I haven't flown United domestic since April beginning. Wont fly UA international either for my upcoming overseas trips. Will cause me inconvenience on some routings, but I will be able to access OneW First lounges to compensate.
May 28, 2012, 9:14 am
#1198
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NY Metro Area
Programs: AA 2MM Yay!, UA MM, Costco General Member
Posts: 49,038
It sounds like you still don't understand this.
Go find the recent post under the "Wow, they're sure selling a lot of upgrades" thread.
Someone there shared some information on how SHARES works.
It seems from the post that SHARES has a secret algorithm that nobody is allowed to talk about. That algorithm makes offers based on how much they think they can extract from you.
The perverse logic of this algorithm seems to be that it punishes high value flyers until they can't take it anymore and choose to leave UA for another airline.
If you fly a lot, if you spend a lot, then it knows that you shouldn't get any offers, because it knows they've got your money anyway.
If you fly rarely, and/or you fly on super-cheap fares, it'll make offers, because it knows it can get more out of you. If you're on a $129 fare in the back of the plane in a middle seat next to the bathroom that hasn't been cleaned in 65 years, surely you'll pay $14 to move to E+ or $29 to push a GS out of F.
But, if you're a GS, who pays $1,400 for the same flight, there isn't anything more they can sell to you.
Since the logic doesn't look at lifetime spend, but only values a customer for "how much more" it can extract out of your wallet "right now" this means that high value customers are worthless.
Based on that recent post (plus reading here plus recent experience) this seems to be where we've ended up.
And, how dare you suggest you deserve anything. That is over-entitlement. If you don't fix that attitude, Rainey will surely take the next opportunity to slap you down in public.
Go find the recent post under the "Wow, they're sure selling a lot of upgrades" thread.
Someone there shared some information on how SHARES works.
It seems from the post that SHARES has a secret algorithm that nobody is allowed to talk about. That algorithm makes offers based on how much they think they can extract from you.
The perverse logic of this algorithm seems to be that it punishes high value flyers until they can't take it anymore and choose to leave UA for another airline.
If you fly a lot, if you spend a lot, then it knows that you shouldn't get any offers, because it knows they've got your money anyway.
If you fly rarely, and/or you fly on super-cheap fares, it'll make offers, because it knows it can get more out of you. If you're on a $129 fare in the back of the plane in a middle seat next to the bathroom that hasn't been cleaned in 65 years, surely you'll pay $14 to move to E+ or $29 to push a GS out of F.
But, if you're a GS, who pays $1,400 for the same flight, there isn't anything more they can sell to you.
Since the logic doesn't look at lifetime spend, but only values a customer for "how much more" it can extract out of your wallet "right now" this means that high value customers are worthless.
Based on that recent post (plus reading here plus recent experience) this seems to be where we've ended up.
And, how dare you suggest you deserve anything. That is over-entitlement. If you don't fix that attitude, Rainey will surely take the next opportunity to slap you down in public.
As the chinese allegedly say "May you live in interesting times".
It will be very interesting to see how UA does with its transaction based approach vs every other player in the travel/hospitality industry who segments and rewards their customers based on their loyalty.
As for me, I haven't flown United domestic since April beginning. Wont fly UA international either for my upcoming overseas trips. Will cause me inconvenience on some routings, but I will be able to access OneW First lounges to compensate.
It will be very interesting to see how UA does with its transaction based approach vs every other player in the travel/hospitality industry who segments and rewards their customers based on their loyalty.
As for me, I haven't flown United domestic since April beginning. Wont fly UA international either for my upcoming overseas trips. Will cause me inconvenience on some routings, but I will be able to access OneW First lounges to compensate.
Last edited by iluv2fly; May 28, 2012 at 9:24 am Reason: merge
May 28, 2012, 9:22 am
#1200
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NY Metro Area
Programs: AA 2MM Yay!, UA MM, Costco General Member
Posts: 49,038