Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > TravelBuzz
Reload this Page >

Alternatives when airline refuses to board due to passport's nationality.

Alternatives when airline refuses to board due to passport's nationality.

Old Sep 14, 2014, 5:39 pm
  #91  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by 84fiero
I didn't say it asked for anyone's passport information - only nationality (of the passenger) at that point.

I didn't have third party payer situations or other technicalities in mind, but yes, obviously if a third party sits at the computer and makes the purchase for the passenger, it is the passenger's information being requested.

In any case the point was that mecabq's post implying this was just an individual agent acting improperly/on a whim, is not the case...KU does not carry Israeli passengers (aside from those traveling on another passport) and makes that pretty clear from the start of the process.
The Kuwait Airways' website doesn't ask for the purchaser's nationality. The point was that it is willing to sell tickets also to Israelis even as it systematically refuses to consider Israeli passports to be valid ID for the airline. "We'll take your money, but not necessarily you" is rather insulting and smacks of immoral business practice even if it is legal. It is systematic discrimination indeed.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 6:31 pm
  #92  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bangkok or San Francisco
Programs: United 1k, Marriott Lifetime PE, Former DL Gold, Former SQ Solitaire, HH Gold
Posts: 11,886
Originally Posted by GUWonder
Kuwait views the Israeli passports much like they view passports from the ironically-called "Islamic State" (of ISIS/ISIL) which has issued some passports in Syria and/or Iraq: not valid for travel. But that Kuwaiti view is ridiculous and not comparable, as the Israeli passport -- unlike the ISIS/ISIL passport -- is accepted as valid by the governmental authorities in the countries sending and receiving the passenger.
Ridiculous in your opinion. Not in theirs.
Tchiowa is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 7:40 pm
  #93  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by Tchiowa
Ridiculous in your opinion. Not in theirs.
That is your opinion.

Ridiculous in fact? I didn't realize that a subjective word about the situation connotes an objective characterization.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 9:44 pm
  #94  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: NYC
Programs: SPG, Hyatt, HH, MR, Emirates
Posts: 48
[Unduly personalized text edited by Moderator.] She knew it was a Kuwaiti operated airline and claimed she didn't know about while you can see it was clear mentioned on the Kayak booking. Further she knew Kuwaiti will refuse her with an israeli passport. And while we would think she's in a stressful situation, she was here building her case. [Moderator edit.]

Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Sep 20, 2014 at 8:47 pm Reason: Per FT Rules.
LuxurySuite is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 10:47 pm
  #95  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by LuxurySuite
[Moderator edit to original text.] She knew it was a Kuwaiti operated airline and claimed she didn't know about while you can see it was clear mentioned on the Kayak booking. Further she knew Kuwaiti will refuse her with an israeli passport. And while we would think she's in a stressful situation, she was here building her case. [Moderator edit in original quote.]
The ticket was presumably paid for by valid means and issued by the airline in return for being paid the going price for a filed fare.

I don't see a fraud case having any merit in this matter.

Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Sep 20, 2014 at 8:49 pm Reason: Conforming moderator edit to original.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 10:50 pm
  #96  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Programs: UA Platinum
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by LuxurySuite
[Conforming moderator edit.] the Kayak booking. Further she knew Kuwaiti will refuse her with an israeli passport. And while we would think she's in a stressful situation, she was here building her case. [Conforming moderator edit.]
I'm pretty sure you are joking, but in case you are not, let me repeat some important info: Kuwait Airways does not state anywhere in their COC or on their website any specific policy regarding Israeli passport holders. For those who are suggesting that the Kuwaiti stance regarding Israel (i.e. cover their ears, shout 'I can't hear you' and pretend it doesn't exist) somehow excuses their (and OTA partners) failure to warn passengers about a flight between London and the US is laughable. The, "I don't believe it exists argument" would be an absolutely amazing legal loophole: forgot to specify something in a contract? No problem! Just wish it away.

Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Sep 20, 2014 at 8:50 pm Reason: Conforming edit.
waxearwings is offline  
Old Sep 15, 2014, 2:42 am
  #97  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: United Arab Emirates & Arizona, USA
Programs: UA MM/1P, EK Au, QR, TK, Marriott Life Ti, Hilton Dia, IC Dia, Hyatt Glob, Accor Pt, Shangri-La
Posts: 4,508
Originally Posted by 84fiero
I didn't say it asked for anyone's passport information - only nationality (of the passenger) at that point.

I didn't have third party payer situations or other technicalities in mind, but yes, obviously if a third party sits at the computer and makes the purchase for the passenger, it is the passenger's information being requested.

In any case the point was that mecabq's post implying this was just an individual agent acting improperly/on a whim, is not the case...KU does not carry Israeli passengers (aside from those traveling on another passport) and makes that pretty clear from the start of the process.
I stand corrected, maybe. Perhaps it is Kuwait Airlines' official policy not to transport passengers with Israeli passports, though the TIMATIC language that you quote doesn't exactly say that; it says that Israeli passport holders cannot visit Kuwait, even in transit, but it doesn't say that they can't get on a KU plane (e.g., on a fifth-freedom route). And waxearwings can't find any specific language prohibiting Israeli passport holders from flying on KU.

I've lived in the Gulf for years, so I understand what not recognizing Israel generally means, although different countries take it to varying degrees of stridency (and hypocrisy). EK, and I assume QR and GF, have no problem transporting Israeli passport holders even though they are government-owned airlines. SV, ME, I don't know -- I would be curious to hear.
mecabq is offline  
Old Sep 15, 2014, 3:51 am
  #98  
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,565
Originally Posted by waxearwings
I'm pretty sure you are joking, but in case you are not, let me repeat some important info: Kuwait Airways does not state anywhere in their COC or on their website any specific policy regarding Israeli passport holders. For those who are suggesting that the Kuwaiti stance regarding Israel (i.e. cover their ears, shout 'I can't hear you' and pretend it doesn't exist) somehow excuses their (and OTA partners) failure to warn passengers about a flight between London and the US is laughable.
So if I show up for a flight with my Free State of Jefferson passport, the airline has to board me because their COC doesn't say otherwise?

Originally Posted by waxearwings
The, "I don't believe it exists argument" would be an absolutely amazing legal loophole: forgot to specify something in a contract? No problem! Just wish it away.
This argument would only work if the matter doesn't actually exist under applicable law. Since Israel doesn't exist under Kuwaiti law, the argument is possible.

This, of course, leads to the fundamental question: to what extent does Kuwaiti law apply to this flight, which does not touch Kuwait?

As a practical matter, it seems like there are three laws: the law of the origin, the law of the destination, and the law of the carrier's domicile. The most restrictive seems to apply.

This thread was a good read.
cbn42 is offline  
Old Sep 15, 2014, 10:16 am
  #99  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: NYC
Programs: SPG, Hyatt, HH, MR, Emirates
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by GUWonder
The ticket was presumably paid for by valid means and issued by the airline in return for being paid the going price for a filed fare.

I don't see a fraud case having any merit in this matter.

She's aware of KA's policy (this is all known among Israeli people), but still booked the flight tickets operated by KA. So she can get some compensation. [Unduly personalized text deleted per FT Rules.]

Last edited by LuxurySuite; Nov 5, 2014 at 8:28 pm Reason: Per FT Rules.
LuxurySuite is offline  
Old Sep 15, 2014, 10:23 am
  #100  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: NYC
Programs: SPG, Hyatt, HH, MR, Emirates
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by waxearwings
I'm pretty sure you are joking, but in case you are not, let me repeat some important info: Kuwait Airways does not state anywhere in their COC or on their website any specific policy regarding Israeli passport holders. For those who are suggesting that the Kuwaiti stance regarding Israel (i.e. cover their ears, shout 'I can't hear you' and pretend it doesn't exist) somehow excuses their (and OTA partners) failure to warn passengers about a flight between London and the US is laughable. The, "I don't believe it exists argument" would be an absolutely amazing legal loophole: forgot to specify something in a contract? No problem! Just wish it away.
I am not joking. It's widely known among Israeli people that Kuwaiti doesn't allow them to board their planes. She's bought that tickets in purpose to claim compensation. [Moderator edit to remove personalized text.]

Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Sep 20, 2014 at 8:51 pm Reason: See note above.
LuxurySuite is offline  
Old Sep 15, 2014, 10:58 am
  #101  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bangkok or San Francisco
Programs: United 1k, Marriott Lifetime PE, Former DL Gold, Former SQ Solitaire, HH Gold
Posts: 11,886
Originally Posted by waxearwings
I'm pretty sure you are joking, but in case you are not, let me repeat some important info: Kuwait Airways does not state anywhere in their COC or on their website any specific policy regarding Israeli passport holders. For those who are suggesting that the Kuwaiti stance regarding Israel (i.e. cover their ears, shout 'I can't hear you' and pretend it doesn't exist) somehow excuses their (and OTA partners) failure to warn passengers about a flight between London and the US is laughable. The, "I don't believe it exists argument" would be an absolutely amazing legal loophole: forgot to specify something in a contract? No problem! Just wish it away.
I agree with you that I don't think this is a deliberate fraud. But the whole recognition thing of Israel is very real in this world. Kuwait is not the only government who doesn't recognize Israel. And that isn't a "I don't believe it exists", but rather a very specific legal statement that is recognized by other nations. Prior to Nixon, for example, the US didn't recognize China. Today, the US doesn't recognize Taiwan.

And keep in mind that Kuwait Air is an arm of the Kuwaiti government.
Tchiowa is offline  
Old Sep 15, 2014, 11:06 am
  #102  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by LuxurySuite
She's aware of Kuwaiti not boarding israeli passport holders (this is all known among Israeli people), but still booked the flight tickets operated by Kuwaiti. So she can get some compensation. This is a planned scam.
Not everyone in the world is as sophisticated and equally knowledgeable as some others about all that goes on in this regard.

An Air India codeshares was supposedly purchased, and not everyone pays equally great attention to all the details about operating carriers.

Even if the people buying or traveling on such tickets are aware of the issue in advance of purchase and/or attempted travel and are doing this to seek compensation or to set up things to more strongly lobby against this kind of situation being possible, I'm not sure why that would be called fraud. It doesn't strike me as being illegal in the US.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 15, 2014, 1:23 pm
  #103  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Programs: BA blue, LH Senator, KQ (FB) gold
Posts: 8,215
Originally Posted by LuxurySuite
She's aware of Kuwaiti not boarding israeli passport holders (this is all known among Israeli people), but still booked the flight tickets operated by Kuwaiti. So she can get some compensation. [Conforming moderator edit to original quote].
There was nothing in the thread which suggested that:

a) she was aware of the fact that she was booking a flight operated by Kuwait Airways. Quite the opposite, she says she did not know until she arrived at the airport. You may not believe this, but I take this statement at face value.

b) she was aware that Kuwait Airways will not transport people carrying an Israeli passport between two countries, both of which accept Israeli passports, even without a transit in Kuwait.

c) that all Israelis know that Kuwait Airways doesn't transport people between two countries (without transit in Kuwait) that accept Israeli passports. I would assume that most Israelis are aware that they are not admissible to Kuwait on an Israeli passport. I would not assume that they are aware that they can't step onto a Kuwait Airways flight between two non-Kuwaiti locations.

If anything, I would say it was Kuwait Airways that was perpretrating a fraud by selling a ticket with hidden conditions.

Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Sep 20, 2014 at 8:53 pm
You want to go where? is offline  
Old Sep 15, 2014, 1:29 pm
  #104  
tjl
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: California
Programs: AS,WN,UA,B6,hotels
Posts: 4,239
Originally Posted by Tchiowa
I agree with you that I don't think this is a deliberate fraud. But the whole recognition thing of Israel is very real in this world. Kuwait is not the only government who doesn't recognize Israel. And that isn't a "I don't believe it exists", but rather a very specific legal statement that is recognized by other nations. Prior to Nixon, for example, the US didn't recognize China. Today, the US doesn't recognize Taiwan.
However, the US does not automatically deem passports issued by the Republic of China (Taiwan) or Palestinian Authority to be invalid. In the Kuwait - Israel case, it is more than just mere non-recognition that is Kuwait government policy.
tjl is offline  
Old Sep 15, 2014, 1:35 pm
  #105  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by You want to go where?

If anything, I would say it was Kuwait Airways that was perpretrating a fraud by selling a ticket with hidden conditions.
All airlines have "hidden conditions" of some sort. For example, no US airline has ever highlighted the condition, during the booking process, that the passenger with a valid ticket and valid ID may be denied travel due to a hidden blacklist. I wouldn't call it fraud, but I would call it customer-unfriendly -- no less because the airlines don't really lobby hard against this kind of stuff; and more so because the airline labor unions are often fans of the dog and pony show in the name of "security" or who knows what as long as it hits the passengers and not them. This situation isn't really that different: not fraud, but customer-unfriendly.
GUWonder is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.