Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > TravelBuzz
Reload this Page >

Alternatives when airline refuses to board due to passport's nationality.

Alternatives when airline refuses to board due to passport's nationality.

Old Sep 14, 2014, 1:25 am
  #76  
Formerly known as FTRox87
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: TX
Programs: AA/US 1M, AS, BA, CX, EK, EY, JL, KE, LH, NH, OS, QF, QR, TG, UA/CO | *$G
Posts: 1,428
Originally Posted by Boraxo
Exactly. Most companies that are accused of unlawful discriminate will come up with some pre-textual reason to support their argument. This does not get them off the hook. Courts generally look to the effect of the policy to see if it results in discrimination, as well as evidence of intent.


As noted above, the traveler did have a valid passport under both US and UK law. End of story. Kuwait law is irrelevant to this situation.
1) the point many of you folks arguing is moot. while dinka may have had a valid passport for all intents and purposes, from KUs perspective they couldnt check her in cause they (and presumably their IT system) doesnt RECOGNIZE israeli passports. what/how exactly would the check in agent scan? their system would not read an israeli passport. the OP might as well have brought space camp ID or a travelers cheque to try and check in with. they'd have the same result and be equally disqualifying her from flying as far as KU is concerned, wrt checking her in and printing her boarding pass.


2) for the ppl arguing the T&Cs stance, fail to consider that this is not a discriminatory or exclusionary 'policy' whereby such a clause is required. is it right? ofc not. however, the standard language of requiring valid travel document is already included. an israeli passport is not 'excluded' per se as a valid travel document, so much so that it doesnt exist atleast in the 'consciousness' of KU. hopefully this is clear enough but if not: basically you cant exclude something that you dont believe exists or is legal in the first place.

if they acknowledged an 'israeli passport' they'd have to do it fully, but since they dont this is the end result. I mean the OP could have handed the KU check in desk a childrens drawing book, it'd have the same effect, because KUs system would not be able to scan it. also even if they could have an exclusionary clause for a 'non-existent passport' its not upto KU, I mean this aint exactly a KU policy. its a kuwait issue, not an airline issue. and sure KU is owned by the govt of kuwait, so maybe in a roundabout way -- but KU is not in the real politik business at the end of the day, which is why I believe they so readily accommodated the OP on other (perhaps more costlier) carriers without flinching.

so because its not part of any T&Cs since this is not a discriminatory practice as much as its a recognition practice (which could change in the future) therefore its not a kayak, or priceline or even an AI issue. ultimately it is an OP issue -- buyer beware -- err traveler know thy travel/options etc.

Last edited by FTR 787; Sep 14, 2014 at 1:31 am
FTR 787 is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 6:07 am
  #77  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: United Arab Emirates & Arizona, USA
Programs: UA MM/1P, EK Au, QR, TK, Marriott Life Ti, Hilton Dia, IC Dia, Hyatt Glob, Accor Pt, Shangri-La
Posts: 4,509
Originally Posted by FTRox87
1) the point many of you folks arguing is moot. while dinka may have had a valid passport for all intents and purposes, from KUs perspective they couldnt check her in cause they (and presumably their IT system) doesnt RECOGNIZE israeli passports. what/how exactly would the check in agent scan? their system would not read an israeli passport. the OP might as well have brought space camp ID or a travelers cheque to try and check in with. they'd have the same result and be equally disqualifying her from flying as far as KU is concerned, wrt checking her in and printing her boarding pass.
I think that you're taking the concept of "Kuwait not recognizing Israel" a bit too literally. This just seems like a reflexive stupidity on the part of the KU agent, which may or may not even be official airline policy.
mecabq is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 6:55 am
  #78  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New York, New York, United States
Programs: M&M, Priority Club, Delta, AA
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by mecabq
I think that you're taking the concept of "Kuwait not recognizing Israel" a bit too literally. This just seems like a reflexive stupidity on the part of the KU agent, which may or may not even be official airline policy.
It's exactly what the agents said, all 3 of them in NYC and this is what AA agents, who sometimes operate the ground check-in in London for Kuwait airlines said on the way back.
Dinka is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 8:04 am
  #79  
Moderator, El Al and Marriott Bonvoy, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Hyatt Contributor BadgeMarriott Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SIN
Programs: SQ*G, Mar LTT, Hyatt Glb, AA LTG, LY, HH, IC, BA, DL, UA SLV
Posts: 12,000
Originally Posted by danielonn
In my opinion the airline should have just worked with you and sent you to a sterile In Transit Lounge and processed you on to India. I mean you were not even entering the country they had in question.
That certainly would have made the intended weekend getaway to London even more of an adventure!
yosithezet is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 8:06 am
  #80  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New York, New York, United States
Programs: M&M, Priority Club, Delta, AA
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by yosithezet
That certainly would have made the intended weekend getaway to London even more of an adventure!
Dinka is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 8:44 am
  #81  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,679
Originally Posted by mecabq
I think that you're taking the concept of "Kuwait not recognizing Israel" a bit too literally. This just seems like a reflexive stupidity on the part of the KU agent, which may or may not even be official airline policy.
It's not a one-off untrained agent issue, KU will not carry Israeli passport holders, nor will KU even sell them a ticket through any of its direct channels. (See the DOT complaint and lawsuit I posted upthread).

This fact is captured in TIMATIC as well

Admission and transit is refused to holders of Israeli travel document(s), even if not leaving the aircraft and proceeding by the same flight
It's well known that the government of Kuwait doesn't recognize Israel as a state, you can find any number of news articles about this.

See this for a list of various countries with the same or similar position.
84fiero is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 8:58 am
  #82  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by 84fiero
It's not a one-off untrained agent issue, KU will not carry Israeli passport holders, nor will KU even sell them a ticket through any of its direct channels. (See the DOT complaint and lawsuit I posted upthread).
KU sells Israeli-passport holders tickets through at least some of its direct channels. They don't seem to generally ask for passport details of the purchasing customer.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 9:04 am
  #83  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,679
Originally Posted by GUWonder
KU sells Israeli-passport holders tickets through at least some of its direct channels. They don't seem to generally ask for passport details of the purchasing customer.
I guess I meant their website, where they insist on selecting nationality from a drop-down box where Israel is not listed, before proceeding. This has been the basis of the DOT complaint, and others.
84fiero is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 10:20 am
  #84  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by 84fiero
I guess I meant their website, where they insist on selecting nationality from a drop-down box where Israel is not listed, before proceeding. This has been the basis of the DOT complaint, and others.
An Israeli-passport holder can buy a ticket on the airline's website, even absent the buyer being a dual-citizen.

The passenger for whom the Israeli passport holder buys the ticket on Kuwait Airways's website cannot use an Israeli passport, nor can the Israeli passport be entered there. But this doesn't stop an Israeli from being able to buy a ticket on the airline's own website for a passenger not using an Israeli passport for the journey.

The interesting thing is that the payment for the tickets purchased on Kuwait Airways' website went via an Australian website. It works for Israeli-passport users to be the ticket buyers but not to be the passenger.

Their website does not insist on the purchaser to enter the purchaser's passport details. Keep in mind that purchaser and passenger need not be the same person. So an Israeli can buy a ticket even on this airline's own website.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 10:30 am
  #85  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bangkok or San Francisco
Programs: United 1k, Marriott Lifetime PE, Former DL Gold, Former SQ Solitaire, HH Gold
Posts: 11,886
Originally Posted by mecabq
I think that you're taking the concept of "Kuwait not recognizing Israel" a bit too literally. This just seems like a reflexive stupidity on the part of the KU agent, which may or may not even be official airline policy.
I spent a couple of years in Kuwait. I've lived or worked in several of the largest Muslim countries. The poster you responded to is completely right. Countries like Kuwait literally believe that the nation of Israel does not exist. They view it as people illegally occupying someone else's land and issuing fake documents.

To use an analogy from their point of view, imagine if a survivalist group in the US that had declared its independence from the US (and there are several of those groups in existence now) started issuing "passports" from "The Sovereign Nation of Waco". No airline would accept that. Kuwait (and Saudi and many others) view an Israeli passport as the same thing: A completely invalid nonsensical piece of paper.
Tchiowa is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 10:40 am
  #86  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by Tchiowa
I spent a couple of years in Kuwait. I've lived or worked in several of the largest Muslim countries. The poster you responded to is completely right. Countries like Kuwait literally believe that the nation of Israel does not exist. They view it as people illegally occupying someone else's land and issuing fake documents.

To use an analogy from their point of view, imagine if a survivalist group in the US that had declared its independence from the US (and there are several of those groups in existence now) started issuing "passports" from "The Sovereign Nation of Waco". No airline would accept that. Kuwait (and Saudi and many others) view an Israeli passport as the same thing: A completely invalid nonsensical piece of paper.
Kuwait views the Israeli passports much like they view passports from the ironically-called "Islamic State" (of ISIS/ISIL) which has issued some passports in Syria and/or Iraq: not valid for travel. But that Kuwaiti view is ridiculous and not comparable, as the Israeli passport -- unlike the ISIS/ISIL passport -- is accepted as valid by the governmental authorities in the countries sending and receiving the passenger.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 12:15 pm
  #87  
Formerly known as FTRox87
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: TX
Programs: AA/US 1M, AS, BA, CX, EK, EY, JL, KE, LH, NH, OS, QF, QR, TG, UA/CO | *$G
Posts: 1,428
Originally Posted by GUWonder
Kuwait views the Israeli passports much like they view passports from the ironically-called "Islamic State" (of ISIS/ISIL) which has issued some passports in Syria and/or Iraq: not valid for travel. But that Kuwaiti view is ridiculous and not comparable, as the Israeli passport -- unlike the ISIS/ISIL passport -- is accepted as valid by the governmental authorities in the countries sending and receiving the passenger.
it doesnt matter... I'll give you another example... say KU had a fifth freedom route from Toronto to LA (which departed from Pearson's intl gate so no Pre-Clearnace)... say you were american and if you tried to check in with your california drivers license, you'd have the same result as the OP... its a legal, valid travel document cause both CAN and obv the US recognize it. for ex you can rent a car in CAN among other things just based on your american drivers license. but KU wont accept that at check in, will they?

same issue as the OP. KU wont accept it cause its not valid as far as they are concerned.

and before you respond about how this wont work for AA or AC either these days, well back in the day before 9/11 that's how it used to be. but hopefully you get the bigger picture I'm trying to paint about an airline cant check you in with travel documents it doesnt recognize regardless of O&D recognition.
FTR 787 is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 12:47 pm
  #88  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by FTRox87
it doesnt matter...
Who can and cannot buy and who can and cannot fly are the crux of the matter in validating or invalidating a claim made about what the airline allows or doesn't allow.

AA and AC do recognize US driving licenses as valid ID, but the US Government requires airlines to generally require passports for passengers entering or exiting the US on flights serving the US. The US DLs are valid ID in the eyes of the US and Canadian airlines and the governments but the airlines are generally restricted (by the US Government) from transporting passengers cross-border with valid ID unless the valid ID is a valid passport.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 1:03 pm
  #89  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,679
Originally Posted by GUWonder
An Israeli-passport holder can buy a ticket on the airline's website, even absent the buyer being a dual-citizen.

The passenger for whom the Israeli passport holder buys the ticket on Kuwait Airways's website cannot use an Israeli passport, nor can the Israeli passport be entered there. But this doesn't stop an Israeli from being able to buy a ticket on the airline's own website for a passenger not using an Israeli passport for the journey.

The interesting thing is that the payment for the tickets purchased on Kuwait Airways' website went via an Australian website. It works for Israeli-passport users to be the ticket buyers but not to be the passenger.

Their website does not insist on the purchaser to enter the purchaser's passport details. Keep in mind that purchaser and passenger need not be the same person. So an Israeli can buy a ticket even on this airline's own website.
I didn't say it asked for anyone's passport information - only nationality (of the passenger) at that point.

I didn't have third party payer situations or other technicalities in mind, but yes, obviously if a third party sits at the computer and makes the purchase for the passenger, it is the passenger's information being requested.

In any case the point was that mecabq's post implying this was just an individual agent acting improperly/on a whim, is not the case...KU does not carry Israeli passengers (aside from those traveling on another passport) and makes that pretty clear from the start of the process.
84fiero is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 3:11 pm
  #90  
Formerly known as FTRox87
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: TX
Programs: AA/US 1M, AS, BA, CX, EK, EY, JL, KE, LH, NH, OS, QF, QR, TG, UA/CO | *$G
Posts: 1,428
Originally Posted by GUWonder
Who can and cannot buy and who can and cannot fly are the crux of the matter in validating or invalidating a claim made about what the airline allows or doesn't allow.

AA and AC do recognize US driving licenses as valid ID, but the US Government requires airlines to generally require passports for passengers entering or exiting the US on flights serving the US. The US DLs are valid ID in the eyes of the US and Canadian airlines and the governments but the airlines are generally restricted (by the US Government) from transporting passengers cross-border with valid ID unless the valid ID is a valid passport.
way to completely miss the point. I just get the feeling you like arguing for arguing sake... oh well.
FTR 787 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.