Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > TravelBuzz
Reload this Page >

Alternatives when airline refuses to board due to passport's nationality.

Alternatives when airline refuses to board due to passport's nationality.

Old Sep 11, 2014, 6:24 pm
  #61  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 9,065
If I were Israeli I would regularly book cheap C class KU JFK-LHR and "upgrade" to BA.
erik123 is offline  
Old Sep 11, 2014, 6:38 pm
  #62  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New York, New York, United States
Programs: M&M, Priority Club, Delta, AA
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by erik123
If I were Israeli I would regularly book cheap C class KU JFK-LHR and "upgrade" to BA.
You will find it hard to believe, me being Israeli and all, all I want is live my life in peace and quite, focus on being productive, spend time with family and friends, and not to go over my head in tricking somebody/something giving me something worth a few thousand dollars.

I have to also tell you, that the feeling of being a second sort world citizen, was not pleasant at all and kept me away from enjoying my vacation for about 24 hours.

All well what ends well, but I will never, ever, ever book a flight from a Muslim country, prior to checking what is the up to date relationship status with Israel (as it changes once in a few years, once the government in these countries changes - everything is under question). If the price difference with a first world country is lower than $200, I wouldn't even bother checking. Not because I'm well financially, but because it's humiliating.

I appreciate the humor, but this time - I was not laughing.
Dinka is offline  
Old Sep 11, 2014, 6:46 pm
  #63  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: VPS
Programs: IHG Diamond, Delta PM, Hilton Gold, Accor Gold, Marriott Silver
Posts: 7,140
Originally Posted by nabeelj
I went through the steps the OP indicated (purchased through Kayak, sold by Priceline). The Kayak results page does indicate "Kuwait Airways operates flight xxxx" in small print, while the following page indicates it clearly. Nonetheless, I think the onus is on Priceline and/or Air India to make this right.
It also doesn't say if the flight is on Kuwait metal or Kuwait dba Air India under Air India colors. Given the spider's web of commuter airlines you get in the USA and how Aer Lingus runs some Virgin Atlantic short haul flights in the UK, and any number of other such arrangements out there, it's not a given whether it's a codeshare flight or a subcontracting deal from the screen.
beachmouse is online now  
Old Sep 11, 2014, 8:06 pm
  #64  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by erik123
If I were Israeli I would regularly book cheap C class KU JFK-LHR and "upgrade" to BA.
That is what I would pursue too. I would consider doing the same thing on other routes and on other airlines with such policies -- with regard to potential trips starting or ending in the US and for trips departing out of EC261/2004 countries. It would be my revenge for a repugnant policy.

I wouldn't use Harper's Canada after the RGN debacle.

Originally Posted by Dinka
You will find it hard to believe, me being Israeli and all, all I want is live my life in peace and quite, focus on being productive, spend time with family and friends, and not to go over my head in tricking somebody/something giving me something worth a few thousand dollars.

I have to also tell you, that the feeling of being a second sort world citizen, was not pleasant at all and kept me away from enjoying my vacation for about 24 hours.

All well what ends well, but I will never, ever, ever book a flight from a Muslim country, prior to checking what is the up to date relationship status with Israel (as it changes once in a few years, once the government in these countries changes - everything is under question). If the price difference with a first world country is lower than $200, I wouldn't even bother checking. Not because I'm well financially, but because it's humiliating.

I appreciate the humor, but this time - I was not laughing.
I can definitely empathize with the awful feeling of being treated as a second class person. I wish it happened to no free person. This is the very reason why I have found the US aviation-related blacklists -- some of which have been nationality-biased -- to be morally repugnant: they treat free persons as a second class person.

You should make sure you have a new ticket number (compared to before) and that the ticket was reissued properly. Just to make sure that the passenger (yourself or spouse?) doesn't face additional hassles at time of attempted check-in.

Last edited by GUWonder; Sep 11, 2014 at 8:19 pm
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 11, 2014, 8:20 pm
  #65  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Over the North Atlantic
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 494
Originally Posted by Dinka
You will find it hard to believe, me being Israeli and all, all I want is live my life in peace and quite, focus on being productive, spend time with family and friends, and not to go over my head in tricking somebody/something giving me something worth a few thousand dollars.

I have to also tell you, that the feeling of being a second sort world citizen, was not pleasant at all and kept me away from enjoying my vacation for about 24 hours.

All well what ends well, but I will never, ever, ever book a flight from a Muslim country, prior to checking what is the up to date relationship status with Israel (as it changes once in a few years, once the government in these countries changes - everything is under question). If the price difference with a first world country is lower than $200, I wouldn't even bother checking. Not because I'm well financially, but because it's humiliating.

I appreciate the humor, but this time - I was not laughing.
Well said! I was not aware of this issue before but now I do plan to write letters to both Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand about this issue. I think this need to be resolved legislatively rather going through the judicial system. It makes no sense that carriers here are allowed to refuse to carry a person between two ports, in which both recognize the person's passport.
muishkin is offline  
Old Sep 11, 2014, 9:40 pm
  #66  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by muishkin
It makes no sense that carriers here are allowed to refuse to carry a person between two ports, in which both recognize the person's passport.
^^ for lobbying against the US aviation blacklists (e.g., no-fly list) too. Lots of those blacklisted persons also have valid passports recognized by the embarkation and disembarkation ports' immigration authorities but the carriers refuse to transport them -- and some of them are even US citizens.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 12, 2014, 12:27 pm
  #67  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Danville, CA, USA;
Programs: UA 1MM, WN CP, Marriott LT Plat, Hilton Gold, IC Plat
Posts: 15,575
Originally Posted by BearX220
Match.com, Tinder, etc. have no idea what their clients' criminal histories, weird fetishes, nasty bathroom habits, etc. are and are certainly not responsible for pairings that give offense to one party or the other. If -- to circle back to the OP's situation -- Match.com connects a Jewish client with a client who is quietly but virulently anti-semitic, and the date goes south, nobody gets to sue Match.com.
You're going way OT, aviation law is a complex area subject to multilateral international treaties, federal law and occasionaly state law to the extent not preempted. Online "dating" apps are subject to a whole host of federal and state laws, and in fact victims who were raped have sued these companies for not pre-screening customers. Many now do. As far as I know most do not discriminate except for eharmony.com, which I think has also been sued by atheists or non-Christians.

Originally Posted by GUWonder
Whatever the COC states, the airline is still discriminating based on citizenship/nationality because a passport accepted by the governments for travel between these two countries is being refused merely because the passport is issued by Israel. That is prima facie evidence of discrimination based on citizenship/nationality. Whether the discrimination is legal or not, it's still discrimination and I find this discrimination to be morally repugnant when the sending and receiving countries have agreed the person is cleared for travel.
Exactly. Most companies that are accused of unlawful discriminate will come up with some pre-textual reason to support their argument. This does not get them off the hook. Courts generally look to the effect of the policy to see if it results in discrimination, as well as evidence of intent.

Originally Posted by Tchiowa
I don't want to simply argue with you but I'm trying to make one point and I hope it will be accepted. They didn't not discriminate against the OP. Not on race, nation, or anything else. They have the same requirement for international carriage as virtually every airline: Passenger must be in possession of a valid passport. Since Kuwait doesn't recognize Israel their passports aren't considered valid. Fair? Not in my mind, no. Legal? Yes.
Incorrect. As noted above, the traveler did have a valid passport under both US and UK law. End of story. Kuwait law is irrelevant to this situation.

Originally Posted by waxearwings
Priceline's response is absolutely shameful.
Agree - this is the typical form letter response from priceline's ICC. THIS IS WHY NOBODY SHOULD USE PRICELINE FOR AIRLINE BOOKINGS. The savings is not worth it if you have a problem.

Originally Posted by GUWonder
I can definitely empathize with the awful feeling of being treated as a second class person. I wish it happened to no free person. This is the very reason why I have found the US aviation-related blacklists -- some of which have been nationality-biased -- to be morally repugnant: they treat free persons as a second class person.
+1 The blacklists disgust me, and even worse that there is no legal process to get removed from the list. Thankfully the courts are finally beginning to recognize and address this problem, though the USG will not go down without a fight.
Boraxo is offline  
Old Sep 12, 2014, 1:38 pm
  #68  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 9,065
Originally Posted by Dinka
You will find it hard to believe, me being Israeli and all, all I want is live my life in peace and quite, focus on being productive, spend time with family and friends, and not to go over my head in tricking somebody/something giving me something worth a few thousand dollars.

I have to also tell you, that the feeling of being a second sort world citizen, was not pleasant at all and kept me away from enjoying my vacation for about 24 hours.

All well what ends well, but I will never, ever, ever book a flight from a Muslim country, prior to checking what is the up to date relationship status with Israel (as it changes once in a few years, once the government in these countries changes - everything is under question). If the price difference with a first world country is lower than $200, I wouldn't even bother checking. Not because I'm well financially, but because it's humiliating.

I appreciate the humor, but this time - I was not laughing.
While tongue in cheek it is not meant with disrespect. KU lost money on you which is good - and could lose even more if you pursue this case.

It would be a good media event to book a 100 Israelis on the same JFK-LHR flight and see how they handle that one.
erik123 is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2014, 1:09 pm
  #69  
:D!
Hilton Contributor BadgeIHG Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: NW London and NW Sydney
Programs: BA Diamond, Hilton Bronze, A3 Diamond, IHG *G
Posts: 6,282
This may be a stupid question but why, when the OP was rebooked on AA for JFK-LHR, did the airline agents not rebook the return flight as well?

Would the aircraft be considered as Kuwaiti territory when over international waters? If Israeli citizens are not permitted to enter Kuwait, does this extend to the aircraft? If an Israeli citizen is born on board a Kuwait flight over the Atlantic, would Kuwait be obliged to issue a birth certificate?
:D! is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2014, 3:38 pm
  #70  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by :D!
This may be a stupid question but why, when the OP was rebooked on AA for JFK-LHR, did the airline agents not rebook the return flight as well?

Would the aircraft be considered as Kuwaiti territory when over international waters? If Israeli citizens are not permitted to enter Kuwait, does this extend to the aircraft? If an Israeli citizen is born on board a Kuwait flight over the Atlantic, would Kuwait be obliged to issue a birth certificate?
Kuwait's laws and regulations applicable to Kuwaiti planes most probably apply to Kuwaiti flights over international waters too. Whether those Kuwaiti laws/regs broadly oblige Kuwaitis to behave as agents of the government and exclude doing any and all business with Israelis, not sure; however, Kuwait's investments arms do involve doing business with some people the Kuwaiti government knows to be Israelis.

Dual-Israeli citizens have flown to/from Kuwait or otherwise on Kuwaiti flights and are not generally denied admission if using a non-Israeli travel doc for admission to Kuwait.

Birth certificates can be issued even when the child is not a citizen of the country in which they are born. Kuwait routinely issues birth certificates even for people born within its jurisdiction who do not qualify for Kuwaiti citizenship and whose citizenship, if any, is unclear at the time of birth and sometimes even long after the birth. It's possible to be born in Kuwait as a stateless person.

Last edited by GUWonder; Sep 13, 2014 at 3:46 pm
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2014, 5:07 pm
  #71  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New York, New York, United States
Programs: M&M, Priority Club, Delta, AA
Posts: 138
They booked one way because then start quote "its going to be London's issue"
Dinka is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2014, 11:53 pm
  #72  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Traveling the World
Posts: 6,063
k
Originally Posted by Dinka
Hi,

I booked a flight on price line, JFK-london direct air India. It turned out that the flight is code share with Kuwait airlines (which I discovered only when I got to the airport). Kuwait airlines didn't board me, as I have an Israeli passport and as explained Kuwait government doesn't recognize Israel as a state. They were kind enough to book me a ticket on British airways instead. But my ticket back is still Kuwait airlines. Air India are not picking up the phone. Priceline have no idea what to do. What do you think I should do in order to increase my chances of getting back to NYC in 4 days as planned with minimal financial damage? I'm boarding the BA flight to London in a few minutes.

Any thoughts will be appreciated. Please avoid any comments suggesting me being dumb, naive, deserving it or whatever that is not helping me to get back to NYC, like happened in a similar thread on flyertalk back in 2003.

Thank you for your help,
Dina
Shalom Dinka,

I think the airlines should be responsible for letting you know when you purchase your ticket where it would verify your nationality. If your passport does not conform with the ticket then it should not let the purchase go through.

If an airline is codeshared with Kuwait Airlines but is flown via another carrier like Air India and you did not stop in a restricted country then why were you denied boarding . You could claim you were discriminated against due to your nationality because you were on a legitimate flight from what is sounds like.

BTW Do you have an American Passport? If so you could have just used this for your flight.

I think you should get a full refund because you only knew it was a Kuwait Airlines Flight and or they should have gotten you to your final destination for no extra cost. Your intention was to go on an itinerary in which your Israeli Passport would be accepted.

I wish you all the best.

Daniel

Last edited by danielonn; Sep 14, 2014 at 12:02 am
danielonn is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 12:02 am
  #73  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Traveling the World
Posts: 6,063
Originally Posted by 84fiero
They do not require it, at least not prior to authorizing the purchase and charge to the credit card.

I think it's poor of Priceline to utilize an airline (not sure if this is the only one) that has a practice of not boarding citizens from some nations, for its blind bidding service. Its T&Cs make no mention of any such possibility. There is a link during the process to "partner" airlines - which ends up being characterized as a "sample" and not all-inclusive. KU isn't among the sample list in any event.

All that said, Often1's advice is the most cogent to the immediate problem for the OP. I can't think of anything else to add to that.
If I one a bid with Priceline and found out that I would be denied boarding on the basis of my nationality you can be sure I would be disputing this with my Credit Card right away.

I would get all the documentation and send it to Priceline using the TIMATIC System. All I would do is go to a local travel agency with access to the TIMATIC system which tells you what are the entry/exit/in transit requirements of the country.

Some countries will make you get a Visa even if you are there for a couple of hours. Some countries will waive the Visa if you are there for less than 24 hours and do not exit the In Transit Zone.

In my opinion the airline should have just worked with you and sent you to a sterile In Transit Lounge and processed you on to India. I mean you were not even entering the country they had in question.

A Direct Flight means the airline will stop on the way. I Would want to know where the flight stops and not use Priceline on such an itinerary. In fact I would book a flight via LHR,CDG or another European Country or go via Singapore. Either way Priceline had to disclose the information as your Travel Agent and allow you to rebook and perhaps even cover the price difference for the new itinerary/
danielonn is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 12:05 am
  #74  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Traveling the World
Posts: 6,063
Originally Posted by nabeelj
I sympathize with the OP, it's a ridiculous policy for Kuwait Airways not to transport Israeli passengers when the flight is not destined to a country that does not recognize an Israeli passport.

I went through the steps the OP indicated (purchased through Kayak, sold by Priceline). The Kayak results page does indicate "Kuwait Airways operates flight xxxx" in small print, while the following page indicates it clearly. Nonetheless, I think the onus is on Priceline and/or Air India to make this right.



Notice how it says"Operated By Kuwait Airlines" This means Air India is marketing the flight and selling seats under its Ticket Fare Basis but Kuwait Airlines is the operating carrier thus the OP is on the terms of Kuwait Airlines.
danielonn is offline  
Old Sep 14, 2014, 12:56 am
  #75  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by danielonn
Notice how it says"Operated By Kuwait Airlines" This means Air India is marketing the flight and selling seats under its Ticket Fare Basis but Kuwait Airlines is the operating carrier thus the OP is on the terms of Kuwait Airlines.
The airlines probably have language that indicates the operating carrier's rules apply too.

The passenger was transported for no additional cost on a carrier better for earning useful airline miles.

This was not a ticket bid for on Priceline. It was a regular ticket booked via Priceline where the customer knows the marketing and operating carrier in advance of paying.
GUWonder is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.