Aggressive tip requests
May 14, 2012 | 11:19 am
#166
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 13,595
I actually NEVER said that it is okay for them to do that, and I don't believe that it is. But it is very common practice, and it would be naive to believe otherwise.
And the fact is, it is foolhardy to expect the same level of professionalism from a waiter who might earn $3 an hour, with an expectation of tripling or quadrupling that from gratuities which they then find that they did not receive from a particular customer, and a doctor who earns hundreds of dollars for performing a single patient procedure. No doubt many servers do not actually mistreat the food of poor tipping customers, but a very significant number DO do this. Claiming otherwise is either naive or misleading in the extreme.
And the fact is, it is foolhardy to expect the same level of professionalism from a waiter who might earn $3 an hour, with an expectation of tripling or quadrupling that from gratuities which they then find that they did not receive from a particular customer, and a doctor who earns hundreds of dollars for performing a single patient procedure. No doubt many servers do not actually mistreat the food of poor tipping customers, but a very significant number DO do this. Claiming otherwise is either naive or misleading in the extreme.
In thousands of hours serving / bar tending, I never once tampered with food or drink, despite earning quite a bit below current minimum wages. I also never saw anyone tamper with food deliberately because of customer attitude (poor handling not directed at a specific customer is another matter) much as we may have joked about wanting to do so (there was many a time I mentally pondered emptying the contents of the beer drip trays and squeezing out the bar cloths into a glass, but neither I nor anyone else I worked with, ever did. Well we did, but only as 'stag do hazing' for one of our managers!!! But he was fully aware!!!)
Besides which, you give far too much credit to an individual in a bar / restaurant. The servers will only remember outstandingly bad behaviour, leaving a low tip is pretty run of the mill, and chances are you are just another face, likely to be forgotten, especially if it is weeks / months between visits. Certainly only shocking stories are worthy of being shared among co-workers.
May 14, 2012 | 11:26 am
#167
Join Date: Dec 2011
Programs: UA 1P
Posts: 545
They are not "beggars."
May 14, 2012 | 12:52 pm
#168
In Memoriam
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Easton, CT, USA
Programs: ua prem exec, Former hilton diamond
Posts: 31,801
Yes they are working.
Leaving an envelope stating it's for you to tip Maria for all her hard work in cleaning your room is begging for a tip.
Just like any other employee is begging when they stand there with their hand out.
Working and begging are not mutually exclusive things.
Leaving an envelope stating it's for you to tip Maria for all her hard work in cleaning your room is begging for a tip.
Just like any other employee is begging when they stand there with their hand out.
Working and begging are not mutually exclusive things.
May 14, 2012 | 3:30 pm
#169
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: トロント
Programs: IHG Platinum
Posts: 4,856
Does anyone tip when ordering from a take out counter? Or picking up a phone order?
Was recently in LAS and I would go downstairs and place an order at a burger restaurant and wait on a bench for my order to be made. The order is punched in, when it was ready, someone from the kitchen which was 20-25 steps away from me would deliver it to the counter and I would be on my way.
Every time I would sign for the receipt (went twice) there was an option for a tip which I would always cross out. The cashier would roll his eyes at me.
As I walked by the restaurant one day, I noticed all of the workers in the restaurant; cashier, waiters, bartenders etc, were wearing t shirts saying, "Be kind, don't forget to tip your server"
I usually tip well but why would anyone tip in this situation?
Was recently in LAS and I would go downstairs and place an order at a burger restaurant and wait on a bench for my order to be made. The order is punched in, when it was ready, someone from the kitchen which was 20-25 steps away from me would deliver it to the counter and I would be on my way.
Every time I would sign for the receipt (went twice) there was an option for a tip which I would always cross out. The cashier would roll his eyes at me.
As I walked by the restaurant one day, I noticed all of the workers in the restaurant; cashier, waiters, bartenders etc, were wearing t shirts saying, "Be kind, don't forget to tip your server"
I usually tip well but why would anyone tip in this situation?
I would never consider returning to any restaurant, bar or establishment where the staff walked around like that.
May 14, 2012 | 3:33 pm
#170
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,312
I've been thinking on this one. A bottle of wine in a regular mid- to high-end restaurant requires very little work - the glasses are already on the table, all they have to do it fetch the bottle, open it and pour. So the diner had 2 bottles of wine. Had the table been drinking e.g. Coke, the server would have had to place the order in the bar, collect drinks, bring them to the table, and then check for and replenish drinks as necessary. In most instances, people have refills on soft drinks (they may drink more wine, but that is chargable), so the workload for a Coke is greater than the wine. The Coke may cost $3, unlimited refills, the wine more like $60 for an inexpensive bottle at a mid- or high-end restaurant. Why would you tip $12 / bottle for the wine ($24), but only 60 cents for the one that requires more work? The more I think on this, the more drink tipping doesn't make sense. Maybe we should tip on the food, but accept that a $300 bottle of wine takes a similar amount of effort to the $3 Coke, and just not tip on the drink portion of a restaurant bill. Certainly in a bar, I was always told by US friends, $1 a drink is what you tip - maybe apply that if you are not comfortable with no tip.
It's not like anyone ever says "you know, the waiter does more work in filling up my Coke than a bottle of wine, maybe I should tip him more than 60 cents. Maybe I'll tip $12 like I do the bottle of wine".
Or what about tipping based on water service?
And by your reasoning one ordering a house salad for an entree should tip the same as one who orders a steak for an entree. They both require the same amount of work.
The idea of tipping based on "how much work the server is doing" would never work in a restaurant. At a bar it works.
May 14, 2012 | 3:55 pm
#171
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: La Jolla, California
Programs: KrisFlyer Gold, SWA CP
Posts: 1,132
----- FLAME WAR in TravelBuzz !!!!!! -----
My goodness. I wandered over here from my lounge chair in the 'Luxury Hotels' section and ended up here. It's gonna take me hours to wipe the spittle and froth off of my keyboard and monitor ....
May 14, 2012 | 4:02 pm
#172
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 13,595
Yup bringing a salad and a steak do require the same effort, you are right, the tip should be the same on both.
I pay for the food - the price is on the menu. I am not permitted to go and fetch that food from the kitchen, nor does the kitchen see any of any tip. Thus, logically, if I cannot get it myself, the bringing of the food to the table must be a part of it, and thus is not optional (as a tip is). Ditto drinks.
So if the bringing of the food and drink is not optional, the optional tip cannot be for the bringing of food and drink.
So if we are not rewarding effort for the mandatory part (the food and drinks) surely we must be rewarding 'above and beyond' service. The smile, good attitude, attentive, prompt service, etc. As those things are not tied to the cost of the food or drink why arbitrarily link the two together? I've had better, quicker, more professional service at an IHOP, so why shouldn't I reward that more, in dollar terms, than mediocre service with mediocre food at a high end restaurant. How can you tell me poor service + high prices should = more than great service + low prices?
At a bar I understand your rational even less (and I bartended for several years). I pour a pint of beer, correctly, per the beer brand standard. I put it in front of the customer. In no way shape or form could I do any less work, nor do I need to do more (the customer cannot pour it himself, he doesn't need Parmesan cheese or ketchup, I don't check back to see if it is cooked to his liking etc). In a slow bar, I should be checking back as he gets to the bottom to see if he would like anything else, etc. In a busy bar I should be professional and serve customers in turn, working methodically to ensure no one waits 'too' long. I worked hundred of nights where the bar was 5 deep, we treated customers fairly. We did not serve only the customers who 'bribed' us with tips. The customers respected our system, waited without fuss as we did the best we could pulling multiple pints or opening multiple bottles at once, calculating totals in our heads, etc. to reduce waits. My job was the same, to be fair to all customers and give the best experience possible, which meant smiling, making chit chat, keeping a friendly atmosphere, regardless of tips / bribery, and it worked darn well.
Why is that people always justify leaving LESS of a tip?
It's not like anyone ever says "you know, the waiter does more work in filling up my Coke than a bottle of wine, maybe I should tip him more than 60 cents. Maybe I'll tip $12 like I do the bottle of wine".
Or what about tipping based on water service?
And by your reasoning one ordering a house salad for an entree should tip the same as one who orders a steak for an entree. They both require the same amount of work.
The idea of tipping based on "how much work the server is doing" would never work in a restaurant. At a bar it works.
I pay for the food - the price is on the menu. I am not permitted to go and fetch that food from the kitchen, nor does the kitchen see any of any tip. Thus, logically, if I cannot get it myself, the bringing of the food to the table must be a part of it, and thus is not optional (as a tip is). Ditto drinks.
So if the bringing of the food and drink is not optional, the optional tip cannot be for the bringing of food and drink.
So if we are not rewarding effort for the mandatory part (the food and drinks) surely we must be rewarding 'above and beyond' service. The smile, good attitude, attentive, prompt service, etc. As those things are not tied to the cost of the food or drink why arbitrarily link the two together? I've had better, quicker, more professional service at an IHOP, so why shouldn't I reward that more, in dollar terms, than mediocre service with mediocre food at a high end restaurant. How can you tell me poor service + high prices should = more than great service + low prices?
At a bar I understand your rational even less (and I bartended for several years). I pour a pint of beer, correctly, per the beer brand standard. I put it in front of the customer. In no way shape or form could I do any less work, nor do I need to do more (the customer cannot pour it himself, he doesn't need Parmesan cheese or ketchup, I don't check back to see if it is cooked to his liking etc). In a slow bar, I should be checking back as he gets to the bottom to see if he would like anything else, etc. In a busy bar I should be professional and serve customers in turn, working methodically to ensure no one waits 'too' long. I worked hundred of nights where the bar was 5 deep, we treated customers fairly. We did not serve only the customers who 'bribed' us with tips. The customers respected our system, waited without fuss as we did the best we could pulling multiple pints or opening multiple bottles at once, calculating totals in our heads, etc. to reduce waits. My job was the same, to be fair to all customers and give the best experience possible, which meant smiling, making chit chat, keeping a friendly atmosphere, regardless of tips / bribery, and it worked darn well.
I've been thinking on this one. A bottle of wine in a regular mid- to high-end restaurant requires very little work - the glasses are already on the table, all they have to do it fetch the bottle, open it and pour. So the diner had 2 bottles of wine. Had the table been drinking e.g. Coke, the server would have had to place the order in the bar, collect drinks, bring them to the table, and then check for and replenish drinks as necessary. In most instances, people have refills on soft drinks (they may drink more wine, but that is chargable), so the workload for a Coke is greater than the wine. The Coke may cost $3, unlimited refills, the wine more like $60 for an inexpensive bottle at a mid- or high-end restaurant. Why would you tip $12 / bottle for the wine ($24), but only 60 cents for the one that requires more work? The more I think on this, the more drink tipping doesn't make sense. Maybe we should tip on the food, but accept that a $300 bottle of wine takes a similar amount of effort to the $3 Coke, and just not tip on the drink portion of a restaurant bill. Certainly in a bar, I was always told by US friends, $1 a drink is what you tip - maybe apply that if you are not comfortable with no tip.
It's not like anyone ever says "you know, the waiter does more work in filling up my Coke than a bottle of wine, maybe I should tip him more than 60 cents. Maybe I'll tip $12 like I do the bottle of wine".
Or what about tipping based on water service?
And by your reasoning one ordering a house salad for an entree should tip the same as one who orders a steak for an entree. They both require the same amount of work.
The idea of tipping based on "how much work the server is doing" would never work in a restaurant. At a bar it works.
May 14, 2012 | 4:03 pm
#173
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 13,595
May 14, 2012 | 5:16 pm
#174
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 68
Yup bringing a salad and a steak do require the same effort, you are right, the tip should be the same on both.
I pay for the food - the price is on the menu. I am not permitted to go and fetch that food from the kitchen, nor does the kitchen see any of any tip. Thus, logically, if I cannot get it myself, the bringing of the food to the table must be a part of it, and thus is not optional (as a tip is). Ditto drinks.
So if the bringing of the food and drink is not optional, the optional tip cannot be for the bringing of food and drink.
So if we are not rewarding effort for the mandatory part (the food and drinks) surely we must be rewarding 'above and beyond' service. The smile, good attitude, attentive, prompt service, etc. As those things are not tied to the cost of the food or drink why arbitrarily link the two together? I've had better, quicker, more professional service at an IHOP, so why shouldn't I reward that more, in dollar terms, than mediocre service with mediocre food at a high end restaurant. How can you tell me poor service + high prices should = more than great service + low prices?
At a bar I understand your rational even less (and I bartended for several years). I pour a pint of beer, correctly, per the beer brand standard. I put it in front of the customer. In no way shape or form could I do any less work, nor do I need to do more (the customer cannot pour it himself, he doesn't need Parmesan cheese or ketchup, I don't check back to see if it is cooked to his liking etc). In a slow bar, I should be checking back as he gets to the bottom to see if he would like anything else, etc. In a busy bar I should be professional and serve customers in turn, working methodically to ensure no one waits 'too' long. I worked hundred of nights where the bar was 5 deep, we treated customers fairly. We did not serve only the customers who 'bribed' us with tips. The customers respected our system, waited without fuss as we did the best we could pulling multiple pints or opening multiple bottles at once, calculating totals in our heads, etc. to reduce waits. My job was the same, to be fair to all customers and give the best experience possible, which meant smiling, making chit chat, keeping a friendly atmosphere, regardless of tips / bribery, and it worked darn well.
I pay for the food - the price is on the menu. I am not permitted to go and fetch that food from the kitchen, nor does the kitchen see any of any tip. Thus, logically, if I cannot get it myself, the bringing of the food to the table must be a part of it, and thus is not optional (as a tip is). Ditto drinks.
So if the bringing of the food and drink is not optional, the optional tip cannot be for the bringing of food and drink.
So if we are not rewarding effort for the mandatory part (the food and drinks) surely we must be rewarding 'above and beyond' service. The smile, good attitude, attentive, prompt service, etc. As those things are not tied to the cost of the food or drink why arbitrarily link the two together? I've had better, quicker, more professional service at an IHOP, so why shouldn't I reward that more, in dollar terms, than mediocre service with mediocre food at a high end restaurant. How can you tell me poor service + high prices should = more than great service + low prices?
At a bar I understand your rational even less (and I bartended for several years). I pour a pint of beer, correctly, per the beer brand standard. I put it in front of the customer. In no way shape or form could I do any less work, nor do I need to do more (the customer cannot pour it himself, he doesn't need Parmesan cheese or ketchup, I don't check back to see if it is cooked to his liking etc). In a slow bar, I should be checking back as he gets to the bottom to see if he would like anything else, etc. In a busy bar I should be professional and serve customers in turn, working methodically to ensure no one waits 'too' long. I worked hundred of nights where the bar was 5 deep, we treated customers fairly. We did not serve only the customers who 'bribed' us with tips. The customers respected our system, waited without fuss as we did the best we could pulling multiple pints or opening multiple bottles at once, calculating totals in our heads, etc. to reduce waits. My job was the same, to be fair to all customers and give the best experience possible, which meant smiling, making chit chat, keeping a friendly atmosphere, regardless of tips / bribery, and it worked darn well.
I don't mean this disrespectfully towards wait staff or hotel porters, but the whole tipping idea to me seems like giving a dog a treat for doing something good. If you tell the dog to sit and he does it, you give him a treat. But if he just expects a treat for coming up to you and sitting down, then you don't reward him for that and you just give him a pat on the head and say "good boy".
If you ask a waiter or a porter to get something for you or to go out of their way to help you, that service deserves to be recognised properly, especially if done promptly and efficiently. Just coming up and asking "is everything ok" or some other meaningless gesture is not worthy of a reward, it is only worthy of a thank you. I did not ask you to come over and perform a task for me, so why should you be rewarded for just doing your job?
You can't just tip someone because it is what normally happens. The person has to earn their money, just like everyone else. Bringing my plate of food is implied when I order. No extra effort is required to do that, so it should not be rewarded. Getting me a special sauce or other condiment is a service, as it is extra to the meal itself. That should be rewarded.
And the idea of a percentage of the bill deciding the tip amount is ludicrous. As people have said already, opening a bottle requires no more effort or skill in a fancy restaurant as opposed to an ordinary one. It's the same task.
It should be dependent upon what you as a consumer think the service is worth to you. Having someone say "Oh, you didn't give me enough" when the amount of a tip is my choice, well that just seems like they should carry a list of how much each of their services cost so I know in advance.
If I tip $5, I tip $5. I don't care what they think they deserve because of all the "tasks" they believe they have done. Some of the tasks are perfunctory and some are completely unnecessary for me to have had a good dining experience.
If they want to be a bully and demand a certain amount of what is in fact a gratuity (as in I don't have to give you any if I don't want to), then they need to pull their head in really.
May 14, 2012 | 6:25 pm
#176
Join Date: Jul 2008
Programs: I am a lowly ant
Posts: 1,756
At a restaurant in Marathon, FL, we had an ok meal, but then the dessert was delivered 'to-go' without our requesting (because they wanted to go home, at 9pm), they followed up by adding about 18% on the hand-written bill without asking, when I queried this I was told 'I guess that's the gratuity'.
I couldn't be bothered to argue, but delivered a 1* tripadvisor review that same night....
From reading the other reviews, it seems they had done this to a British tourist before.
Yesterday, in Venice, Italy, we ate in a place so infested with foreign tourists, that they decided our €120.50 bill was to be rounded up to €130, and was delivered as such. This on top of the usual (for Italy) per person cover charge.
Another 1* tripadvisor review.
I couldn't be bothered to argue, but delivered a 1* tripadvisor review that same night....
From reading the other reviews, it seems they had done this to a British tourist before.
Yesterday, in Venice, Italy, we ate in a place so infested with foreign tourists, that they decided our €120.50 bill was to be rounded up to €130, and was delivered as such. This on top of the usual (for Italy) per person cover charge.
Another 1* tripadvisor review.
May 14, 2012 | 7:39 pm
#177
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: DFW
Posts: 8,233
Taking a charter boat from St. Maarten to Anguilla (flew into SXM, transport by sea to Anguilla). They took our bags and loaded them onto the boat. A guy comes running up to me, "You have to tip the porter for taking your bags. I'm the porter, you have to tip me!" "No, I don't. I don't tip anyone who demands money from me." "No, you have to tip the porter!" "No, I don't and I'm not going to." He went all the way back down the pier, took the bags off the boat and brought them back to me. That was fine by me...he did twice the work for nothing!
May 14, 2012 | 8:19 pm
#178
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: jfk area
Programs: AA platinum; 2MM AA, Delta Diamond, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 10,291
This is one reason (especially in Las Vegas) when I carry lots of small bills, and I travel light so I don't put anything in the trunk of a taxi.
May 14, 2012 | 8:30 pm
#179
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: jfk area
Programs: AA platinum; 2MM AA, Delta Diamond, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 10,291
in computing a tip. many people just double the tax on the bill (=17.75%).
May 14, 2012 | 8:33 pm
#180
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 233
I was connecting in a large airport, think it was MSP. I took one of those little vans, whatever they are called, to move from one place to another.
The driver asked me to sit in front with him, and said would be pleased to tell me aout the airport and its history. I boringly listened. Included with the airport history, came he fact that his free service was really useful and people could pay whatever they thought was fair... He was pretty arrogant, though I cant blame him if his employer underpays.
I gave him five dollars, and suggested to find another job, because his reliance on tips was annoying to passengers and humliaimg for him. He agreed.
The tip system is simply absurd. Either employees should strike against it, or we consumers should strike against it by mot tipping. Both unlikely. Fortunately this is not in every country.
The driver asked me to sit in front with him, and said would be pleased to tell me aout the airport and its history. I boringly listened. Included with the airport history, came he fact that his free service was really useful and people could pay whatever they thought was fair... He was pretty arrogant, though I cant blame him if his employer underpays.
I gave him five dollars, and suggested to find another job, because his reliance on tips was annoying to passengers and humliaimg for him. He agreed.
The tip system is simply absurd. Either employees should strike against it, or we consumers should strike against it by mot tipping. Both unlikely. Fortunately this is not in every country.