View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Dec 13, 2014 | 1:05 pm
#181
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Who is talking conspiracy? IB doing things to its own properties that may help it make more money is no conspiracy. It would sound like a business doing what is right for its business and having its destiny in its own hands.
Dec 13, 2014 | 2:20 pm
#182
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Posts: 52,783
Dec 13, 2014 | 4:42 pm
#183
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
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I've no horse in this race, but find the discussions interesting (and agree our previous attempts at reputation didn't work; our CD has said we are "much larger and less personal" than in those days, so FT is a somewhat different environment).
Here's Mark Zuckerberg on why a "Like" (but not other) button is available on Facebook:
YouTube video, and his prefatory comment.
Here's Mark Zuckerberg on why a "Like" (but not other) button is available on Facebook:
YouTube video, and his prefatory comment.
Originally Posted by Mark Zuckerberg
Here’s a video from our Townhall Q&A today at Facebook HQ, where I answer the top voted question about why we don’t have a dislike button on Facebook.
For today’s Q&A, people flew in and submitted videos from around the world to ask questions ranging from our plans for improving search and why we update our privacy policy to how Facebook can help create stronger communities.
I appreciate the time so many of you put into asking questions and traveling to speak with us. Open discussions like this are an important part of our community, and a good opportunity for us to learn how to make Facebook better.
For today’s Q&A, people flew in and submitted videos from around the world to ask questions ranging from our plans for improving search and why we update our privacy policy to how Facebook can help create stronger communities.
I appreciate the time so many of you put into asking questions and traveling to speak with us. Open discussions like this are an important part of our community, and a good opportunity for us to learn how to make Facebook better.
Dec 13, 2014 | 5:30 pm
#184
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 52,783
I've no horse in this race, but find the discussions interesting (and agree our previous attempts at reputation didn't work; our CD has said we are "much larger and less personal" than in those days, so FT is a somewhat different environment).
Here's Mark Zuckerberg on why a "Like" (but not other) button is available on Facebook:
YouTube video, and his prefatory comment.
Here's Mark Zuckerberg on why a "Like" (but not other) button is available on Facebook:
YouTube video, and his prefatory comment.
That said, I still don't think it is a good idea.
Dec 13, 2014 | 9:09 pm
#185
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
Airlines have to guess whether RR redemptions displace or substitute for cash ticket sales. There is no good way to know, except if cash sales drop precipitously.
We might be limited to running a member opinion survey after the test.
Dec 14, 2014 | 4:56 am
#186
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 52,783
It's a good question and I am thinking about it. I'm not sure there is a way to measure it. Sometimes only a disaster is apparent.
Airlines have to guess whether RR redemptions displace or substitute for cash ticket sales. There is no good way to know, except if cash sales drop precipitously.
We might be limited to running a member opinion survey after the test.
Airlines have to guess whether RR redemptions displace or substitute for cash ticket sales. There is no good way to know, except if cash sales drop precipitously.
We might be limited to running a member opinion survey after the test.
What good is the member opinion survey if the results are split the same, or if people don't participate in that?
I really think this is a solution in search of a problem.
Dec 14, 2014 | 7:55 am
#187
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Posts: 74,088
Dec 14, 2014 | 9:02 am
#188
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
As to "solution in search of a problem": Why do we we need to wait for complaints before we try to improve the member experience?
Any business that doesn't constantly seek out improvements becomes an ex-business. We are running this site on the oldest active version of vBulletin, which is itself the oldest major supplier of forum software. Furthermore, forum discussion has in many areas been supplanted by other forms of online interaction. We can play ostrich and pretend that this is the best of all possible FlyerTalks, but I find that very hard to believe.
A reader feedback button is a small step, and it might fail. But if we don't try even small steps, the online world will eventually pass us by.
Dec 14, 2014 | 9:33 am
#189
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 52,783
A survey with mixed results would be disappointing. That is one possibility.
As to "solution in search of a problem": Why do we we need to wait for complaints before we try to improve the member experience?
Any business that doesn't constantly seek out improvements becomes an ex-business. We are running this site on the oldest active version of vBulletin, which is itself the oldest major supplier of forum software. Furthermore, forum discussion has in many areas been supplanted by other forms of online interaction. We can play ostrich and pretend that this is the best of all possible FlyerTalks, but I find that very hard to believe.
A reader feedback button is a small step, and it might fail. But if we don't try even small steps, the online world will eventually pass us by.
As to "solution in search of a problem": Why do we we need to wait for complaints before we try to improve the member experience?
Any business that doesn't constantly seek out improvements becomes an ex-business. We are running this site on the oldest active version of vBulletin, which is itself the oldest major supplier of forum software. Furthermore, forum discussion has in many areas been supplanted by other forms of online interaction. We can play ostrich and pretend that this is the best of all possible FlyerTalks, but I find that very hard to believe.
A reader feedback button is a small step, and it might fail. But if we don't try even small steps, the online world will eventually pass us by.
I'm all in favor of improvements, but I think this is a step that isn't viewed as an improvement by many, has not been thought out, and is being pushed far too much when there isn't a clear consensus that it is wanted or needed.
Just because it is something new does not mean it is an improvement. A solution in search of a problem is not always an improvement. To make an improvement, one should have a clear concept of how to define success of the improvement. This lacks that.
I might reconsider where I stand on this if there was a clear plan for how to define success and failure, what happens if it's still split 50-50 at the end of the trial, and what happens if this is tried out sitewide and found to be a disaster very quickly. I see the complaints about the Premium Deals forum, and I'm not convinced that if this is found to be a disaster, TB would reconsider quickly.
Please, define a clear plan before moving forward!
Dec 14, 2014 | 10:19 am
#190
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO
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Airlines have to guess whether RR redemptions displace or substitute for cash ticket sales. There is no good way to know, except if cash sales drop precipitously.
We might be limited to running a member opinion survey after the test.
So, if it isn't a disaster, it sounds like you at least will declare it a success, and even with about 50% of the people not wanting it, will proceed?
What good is the member opinion survey if the results are split the same, or if people don't participate in that?
I really think this is a solution in search of a problem.
What good is the member opinion survey if the results are split the same, or if people don't participate in that?
I really think this is a solution in search of a problem.
Dec 15, 2014 | 7:40 am
#191
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I'm all in favor of improvements, but I think this is a step that isn't viewed as an improvement by many, has not been thought out, and is being pushed far too much when there isn't a clear consensus that it is wanted or needed.
Just because it is something new does not mean it is an improvement. A solution in search of a problem is not always an improvement.
Dec 15, 2014 | 8:57 am
#192
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
I might reconsider where I stand on this if there was a clear plan for how to define success and failure, what happens if it's still split 50-50 at the end of the trial, and what happens if this is tried out sitewide and found to be a disaster very quickly. I see the complaints about the Premium Deals forum, and I'm not convinced that if this is found to be a disaster, TB would reconsider quickly.
We didn't have a detailed road map of the sort you want when we tested allowing images in posts. The fact that the horrible situations we feared never happened was sufficient. Even though only a small minority of members used the new feature, the images they posted had indisputable value. Once it was clear that disaster would not occur, a wider rollout occurred, if I recall correctly, by the Community Director without TalkBoard involvement.
Reader feedback is a bit different than images, in that its value is not as obvious. So we have something to demonstrate beyond just avoiding disaster.
In my mind, if a feature pleases 10% of our members and doesn't bother the other 90%, it adds value to FlyerTalk. If a feature improves post quality without bothering members, it adds value. If a feature improves post quantity without degrading post quality, it adds value. These are the three ways in which I expect reader feedback to improve FlyerTalk. This is why I want to test it.
A member survey could address the question of whether members are aware of the new feature, and if so whether it pleases them, bothers them, or neither. That's an easy one.
Improvements in post quality will almost certainly be subtle and essentially invisible. I don't see any way to quantify that, but I'd like to hear any ideas.
Increases in post count will also be small, since reader feedback is such a minor change. We could measure post count, but I doubt the numbers would be meaningful. There is also the Hawthorne Effect to consider.
I want to make this proposal the best it can be, but there will be limits to our knowledge both before and after any trial. At that point we need to apply our own judgment. That's why TalkBoard exists.
A time-limited trial would add information. The only reason not to add information is if one's opinion is immovable no matter what the new information is.
I expect that TalkBoard will be able to see how IB's existing reader feedback capability looks soon. That may alleviate some concerns about a trial.
Dec 15, 2014 | 9:14 am
#193
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Thanks for the reassurance that we're not playing Whack-a-Mole here.
We didn't have a detailed road map of the sort you want when we tested allowing images in posts. The fact that the horrible situations we feared never happened was sufficient. Even though only a small minority of members used the new feature, the images they posted had indisputable value. Once it was clear that disaster would not occur, a wider rollout occurred, if I recall correctly, by the Community Director without TalkBoard involvement.
Reader feedback is a bit different than images, in that its value is not as obvious. So we have something to demonstrate beyond just avoiding disaster.
In my mind, if a feature pleases 10% of our members and doesn't bother the other 90%, it adds value to FlyerTalk. If a feature improves post quality without bothering members, it adds value. If a feature improves post quantity without degrading post quality, it adds value. These are the three ways in which I expect reader feedback to improve FlyerTalk. This is why I want to test it.
A member survey could address the question of whether members are aware of the new feature, and if so whether it pleases them, bothers them, or neither. That's an easy one.
Improvements in post quality will almost certainly be subtle and essentially invisible. I don't see any way to quantify that, but I'd like to hear any ideas.
Increases in post count will also be small, since reader feedback is such a minor change. We could measure post count, but I doubt the numbers would be meaningful. There is also the Hawthorne Effect to consider.
I want to make this proposal the best it can be, but there will be limits to our knowledge both before and after any trial. At that point we need to apply our own judgment. That's why TalkBoard exists.
A time-limited trial would add information. The only reason not to add information is if one's opinion is immovable no matter what the new information is.
I expect that TalkBoard will be able to see how IB's existing reader feedback capability looks soon. That may alleviate some concerns about a trial.
We didn't have a detailed road map of the sort you want when we tested allowing images in posts. The fact that the horrible situations we feared never happened was sufficient. Even though only a small minority of members used the new feature, the images they posted had indisputable value. Once it was clear that disaster would not occur, a wider rollout occurred, if I recall correctly, by the Community Director without TalkBoard involvement.
Reader feedback is a bit different than images, in that its value is not as obvious. So we have something to demonstrate beyond just avoiding disaster.
In my mind, if a feature pleases 10% of our members and doesn't bother the other 90%, it adds value to FlyerTalk. If a feature improves post quality without bothering members, it adds value. If a feature improves post quantity without degrading post quality, it adds value. These are the three ways in which I expect reader feedback to improve FlyerTalk. This is why I want to test it.
A member survey could address the question of whether members are aware of the new feature, and if so whether it pleases them, bothers them, or neither. That's an easy one.
Improvements in post quality will almost certainly be subtle and essentially invisible. I don't see any way to quantify that, but I'd like to hear any ideas.
Increases in post count will also be small, since reader feedback is such a minor change. We could measure post count, but I doubt the numbers would be meaningful. There is also the Hawthorne Effect to consider.
I want to make this proposal the best it can be, but there will be limits to our knowledge both before and after any trial. At that point we need to apply our own judgment. That's why TalkBoard exists.
A time-limited trial would add information. The only reason not to add information is if one's opinion is immovable no matter what the new information is.
I expect that TalkBoard will be able to see how IB's existing reader feedback capability looks soon. That may alleviate some concerns about a trial.
Dec 15, 2014 | 10:05 am
#194
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Bolding mine: Reader feedback is a lot different as opposed to "a bit different"than images and you've got an awful lot of "if's" and your "if's" only refer to a positive outcome. I'd like to see you view it from the other side of the fence with "if's" from a negative outcome as you seem 99 44/100ths sure that this is is a good thing and what the members want
.Cheers.
Dec 15, 2014 | 10:12 am
#195
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
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On your other point, a negative outcome would be a large positive correlation of the "vote" totals with the snarkiness of posts. That to me would qualify as a disaster. Now that I've said that, I have provided any opponents of low integrity a means to sabotage the trial, but such people don't need me to point out what will be obvious to them.
Another negative outcome would be if members find the feature useless or nearly so and it consumes significant screen space. (I don't yet know whether IB's implementation uses any screen space that is not currently empty.)
Another negative outcome would be if posters complain that their good posts are getting no feedback while others' snarky or otherwise deleterious posts are getting positive feedback.
I think it's unlikely to be a difficult decision to call the test a success or a failure. Failure will be especially apparent. In the absence of failure, a member survey will tell us the answer.