View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Dec 12, 2014, 10:06 am
#166
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I also questioned in the private forum whether the Like button is indeed feasible and how high would be the time and resource requirements to do this. Furthermore, I questioned how easy it would be for the developers to make the Like button available for only one forum or indeed, for only some FT members if we were to recommend that only people meeting some post/time on FT requirement be able to use the Like button, of course only when logged into FT.
Last edited by MSPeconomist; Dec 12, 2014 at 10:13 am Reason: shorten quote
Dec 12, 2014, 10:20 am
#167
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
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Posts: 21,624
Many people seem to be concerned about IB's ease of implementation. I agree with this concern. TalkBoard should not ask for the Moon on the basis that maybe it will work and maybe it won't. Otherwise we lose our influence for crucial upgrades.
Accordingly, I need to find out exactly what IB can do with their existing software and what would need new coding. I pledge to do that and incorporate my findings and TalkBoard member preferences before any call for a vote.
I wanted to start with a sky is the limit discussion so as not to bias our thinking toward what IB already has. I think that has been accomplished. At this point I think it's OK to peek at what vBulletin can do for us and let that inform our preferences.
As to pushing a proposal, I have stated my objective: to find the best consensus proposal. If the best does not turn out to have 6 supporters, so be it. I have made no effort to count votes for drafts because I know I haven't yet addressed all concerns. I'm not even sure all the concerns have been mentioned yet. This process seems slow because it is slow. I want to measure many times before cutting.
Accordingly, I need to find out exactly what IB can do with their existing software and what would need new coding. I pledge to do that and incorporate my findings and TalkBoard member preferences before any call for a vote.
I wanted to start with a sky is the limit discussion so as not to bias our thinking toward what IB already has. I think that has been accomplished. At this point I think it's OK to peek at what vBulletin can do for us and let that inform our preferences.
As to pushing a proposal, I have stated my objective: to find the best consensus proposal. If the best does not turn out to have 6 supporters, so be it. I have made no effort to count votes for drafts because I know I haven't yet addressed all concerns. I'm not even sure all the concerns have been mentioned yet. This process seems slow because it is slow. I want to measure many times before cutting.
Dec 12, 2014, 10:25 am
#168
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,413
Many people seem to be concerned about IB's ease of implementation. I agree with this concern. TalkBoard should not ask for the Moon on the basis that maybe it will work and maybe it won't. Otherwise we lose our influence for crucial upgrades.
Accordingly, I need to find out exactly what IB can do with their existing software and what would need new coding. I pledge to do that and incorporate my findings and TalkBoard member preferences before any call for a vote.
I wanted to start with a sky is the limit discussion so as not to bias our thinking toward what IB already has. I think that has been accomplished. At this point I think it's OK to peek at what vBulletin can do for us and let that inform our preferences.
As to pushing a proposal, I have stated my objective: to find the best consensus proposal. If the best does not turn out to have 6 supporters, so be it. I have made no effort to count votes for drafts because I know I haven't yet addressed all concerns. I'm not even sure all the concerns have been mentioned yet. This process seems slow because it is slow. I want to measure many times before cutting.
Accordingly, I need to find out exactly what IB can do with their existing software and what would need new coding. I pledge to do that and incorporate my findings and TalkBoard member preferences before any call for a vote.
I wanted to start with a sky is the limit discussion so as not to bias our thinking toward what IB already has. I think that has been accomplished. At this point I think it's OK to peek at what vBulletin can do for us and let that inform our preferences.
As to pushing a proposal, I have stated my objective: to find the best consensus proposal. If the best does not turn out to have 6 supporters, so be it. I have made no effort to count votes for drafts because I know I haven't yet addressed all concerns. I'm not even sure all the concerns have been mentioned yet. This process seems slow because it is slow. I want to measure many times before cutting.
Dec 12, 2014, 11:49 am
#169
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,624
Agreed. Just as we had an extensive "sky is the limit" discussion, we will have a discussion of what is our best option within the set of capabilities IB can give us with little or no development effort.
Dec 12, 2014, 12:38 pm
#170
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Durham, NC (RDU/GSO/CLT)
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Posts: 33,857
Straw man argument. If IB says "we can either get you a Like Button OR a better mobile app" your argument would be compelling, but without actual proof that working on this (especially as nsx is hinting it wouldn't be difficult) is going to burden IB and take away from more active complaints, I don't think your argument holds water.
Dec 12, 2014, 1:48 pm
#171
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO
Programs: Lifetime (for now) Gold MM, HH Gold, Giving Tootsie Pops to UA employees, & a retired hockey goalie
Posts: 28,878
Many people seem to be concerned about IB's ease of implementation. I agree with this concern. TalkBoard should not ask for the Moon on the basis that maybe it will work and maybe it won't. Otherwise we lose our influence for crucial upgrades.
Accordingly, I need to find out exactly what IB can do with their existing software and what would need new coding. I pledge to do that and incorporate my findings and TalkBoard member preferences before any call for a vote.
I wanted to start with a sky is the limit discussion so as not to bias our thinking toward what IB already has. I think that has been accomplished. At this point I think it's OK to peek at what vBulletin can do for us and let that inform our preferences.
As to pushing a proposal, I have stated my objective: to find the best consensus proposal. If the best does not turn out to have 6 supporters, so be it. I have made no effort to count votes for drafts because I know I haven't yet addressed all concerns. I'm not even sure all the concerns have been mentioned yet. This process seems slow because it is slow. I want to measure many times before cutting.
Accordingly, I need to find out exactly what IB can do with their existing software and what would need new coding. I pledge to do that and incorporate my findings and TalkBoard member preferences before any call for a vote.
I wanted to start with a sky is the limit discussion so as not to bias our thinking toward what IB already has. I think that has been accomplished. At this point I think it's OK to peek at what vBulletin can do for us and let that inform our preferences.
As to pushing a proposal, I have stated my objective: to find the best consensus proposal. If the best does not turn out to have 6 supporters, so be it. I have made no effort to count votes for drafts because I know I haven't yet addressed all concerns. I'm not even sure all the concerns have been mentioned yet. This process seems slow because it is slow. I want to measure many times before cutting.
Straw man argument. If IB says "we can either get you a Like Button OR a better mobile app" your argument would be compelling, but without actual proof that working on this (especially as nsx is hinting it wouldn't be difficult[/B]) is going to burden IB and take away from more active complaints, I don't think your argument holds water.
Dec 12, 2014, 2:28 pm
#172
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,051
Straw man argument. If IB says "we can either get you a Like Button OR a better mobile app" your argument would be compelling, but without actual proof that working on this (especially as nsx is hinting it wouldn't be difficult) is going to burden IB and take away from more active complaints, I don't think your argument holds water.
Dec 12, 2014, 3:06 pm
#173
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,624
Yes. I shouldn't have used a loaded term like inside information to refer to what was merely knowledge that some relevant capabilities do exist within vBulletin. I don't yet know what they are, but I'm sure many users of vBulletin do.
When I learn more specifically what capabilities exist I am confident that IB will have no problem with discussion of those capabilities here. After all, these are features available to any customers of the forum software.
Discussion of what IB might or might not want to develop just for us would probably be proprietary. That's where the TalkBoard might have to just document our wishes.
When I learn more specifically what capabilities exist I am confident that IB will have no problem with discussion of those capabilities here. After all, these are features available to any customers of the forum software.
Discussion of what IB might or might not want to develop just for us would probably be proprietary. That's where the TalkBoard might have to just document our wishes.
Dec 12, 2014, 3:28 pm
#174
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO
Programs: Lifetime (for now) Gold MM, HH Gold, Giving Tootsie Pops to UA employees, & a retired hockey goalie
Posts: 28,878
Yes. I shouldn't have used a loaded term like inside information to refer to what was merely knowledge that some relevant capabilities do exist within vBulletin. I don't yet know what they are, but I'm sure many users of vBulletin do.
When I learn more specifically what capabilities exist I am confident that IB will have no problem with discussion of those capabilities here. After all, these are features available to any customers of the forum software.
Discussion of what IB might or might not want to develop just for us would probably be proprietary. That's where the TalkBoard might have to just document our wishes.
When I learn more specifically what capabilities exist I am confident that IB will have no problem with discussion of those capabilities here. After all, these are features available to any customers of the forum software.
Discussion of what IB might or might not want to develop just for us would probably be proprietary. That's where the TalkBoard might have to just document our wishes.
and are you saying that TalkBoard gets to know but the members whom TalkBoard represents don't get to know and the members have to take TalkBoard's word for it? Doesn't seem very transparent, does it?
Dec 12, 2014, 7:21 pm
#175
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
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I have gotten some information and Carol's permission to share it. IB's existing software has a reader feedback plug-in that apparently only needs to be configured and turned on. Because it already exists, it will not delay other developments, such as the mobile improvements we all crave.
That's the good news. The bad news is that it can be turned on by categories of members (like access to The Coupon Connection or OMNI) but it cannot be enabled or disabled forum by forum. That's disappointing to me.
Carol decided on her own (I didn't even think of asking her) to turn this feature on for moderators to get their reactions on how it looks and works in the moderators' private forum. If IB can easily give the same capability to non-moderator TalkBoard members, that would be even better.
After getting initial reactions, Carol could proceed on her own to turn the feature on for more users, shut the thing down, or ask TalkBoard for advice.
TalkBoard could provide advice on whether an FT-wide trial should take place, its duration, membership requirements (posts and tenure) to use the reader feedback button, the wording of the button, and any other configurable features (of which I do not yet have a list). Since there's no hurry, I think TalkBoard should stand by on these questions until the internal trial occurs.
I would have preferred a single-forum public trial, but we will not get that unless someone at IB decides to write some code just for us. I do intend to find out how much effort that would be for them. I will ask permission to share that information with Carol and TalkBoard and our members in this forum.
That's the good news. The bad news is that it can be turned on by categories of members (like access to The Coupon Connection or OMNI) but it cannot be enabled or disabled forum by forum. That's disappointing to me.
Carol decided on her own (I didn't even think of asking her) to turn this feature on for moderators to get their reactions on how it looks and works in the moderators' private forum. If IB can easily give the same capability to non-moderator TalkBoard members, that would be even better.
After getting initial reactions, Carol could proceed on her own to turn the feature on for more users, shut the thing down, or ask TalkBoard for advice.
TalkBoard could provide advice on whether an FT-wide trial should take place, its duration, membership requirements (posts and tenure) to use the reader feedback button, the wording of the button, and any other configurable features (of which I do not yet have a list). Since there's no hurry, I think TalkBoard should stand by on these questions until the internal trial occurs.
I would have preferred a single-forum public trial, but we will not get that unless someone at IB decides to write some code just for us. I do intend to find out how much effort that would be for them. I will ask permission to share that information with Carol and TalkBoard and our members in this forum.
Dec 12, 2014, 8:32 pm
#176
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I for one am not against someone posting how he or she feels in response to what someone else posted — even if it is a only a ^, a 
, or a +1.
In my opinion, feedback is a gift. If someone is willing to take the time and effort to post something — whether it is in agreement or in opposition in response to content which was posted by a fellow FlyerTalk member — I find that far more valuable than a “like”; and the person can also express himself or herself in virtually any way he or she chooses.
In viewing the “like” system over at Milepoint — which has been in place for almost four years now — the amount of “likes” the content receives does not sway my opinion about the content of what was “liked”; so I find it to have little value.
, or a +1.In my opinion, feedback is a gift. If someone is willing to take the time and effort to post something — whether it is in agreement or in opposition in response to content which was posted by a fellow FlyerTalk member — I find that far more valuable than a “like”; and the person can also express himself or herself in virtually any way he or she chooses.
In viewing the “like” system over at Milepoint — which has been in place for almost four years now — the amount of “likes” the content receives does not sway my opinion about the content of what was “liked”; so I find it to have little value.
It had entertainment value but then it became a distraction and left the place seemingly full of cliques (friendly as they were/are) but not much else in the way of information or even entertainment.
Indeed. If these kind of things are to be "tested", a larger scale trial by fire would perhaps -- if done over a longer period -- provide a better window into what may happen as a result of such things. Not that I am in favor of even that.
Dec 12, 2014, 9:23 pm
#177
Moderator: Hilton Honors forums
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
Posts: 24,997
The Delta Forum Lounge thread is currently an experiment that is on a trial basis for 60 days starting from the date of the first milepost and is supported by the majority of FlyerTalk moderators and the TalkBoard president. It is an idea that, to my knowledge, has not been officially tried, so the guidelines posted above may change whenever necessary as this thread commences.
Dec 13, 2014, 11:54 am
#178
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If users need the opinionated, over-simplified assessment/communication of others to make up their own mind about any given post, then I'm not sure how that adds value to my reading experience on FT. Popularity contests don't really float my boat, but I'm sure they float the boat for others. I'm just not sure how it would improve the reading experience of those who don't need or want another popularity contest on FT when reading FT.
It had entertainment value but then it became a distraction and left the place seemingly full of cliques (friendly as they were/are) but not much else in the way of information or even entertainment.
It had entertainment value but then it became a distraction and left the place seemingly full of cliques (friendly as they were/are) but not much else in the way of information or even entertainment.
And of the folk who have posted in the two threads in this forum, 50% are against having a Like feature yet it seems to be moving forward. Heck, even some of the TB members are against it yet it seems to be moving forward. Neither a poll nor sitewide announcement has been done to garner further input, yet it seems to be moving forward.
Dec 13, 2014, 12:01 pm
#179
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Agree with both.
And of the folk who have posted in the two threads in this forum, 50% are against having a Like feature yet it seems to be moving forward. Heck, even some of the TB members are against it yet it seems to be moving forward. Neither a poll nor sitewide announcement has been done to garner further input, yet it seems to be moving forward.
And of the folk who have posted in the two threads in this forum, 50% are against having a Like feature yet it seems to be moving forward. Heck, even some of the TB members are against it yet it seems to be moving forward. Neither a poll nor sitewide announcement has been done to garner further input, yet it seems to be moving forward.
Dec 13, 2014, 12:56 pm
#180
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
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I guarantee you there's no conspiracy. IB is not pushing this, nor is the CD. I am. I want to find out if it will help or not. Period.