View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people wont take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Dec 15, 2014 | 10:19 am
#196
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
It is unusual for TalkBoard to take any kind of lead on change, but FT has reached the level of goodness that we have to work harder to find improvements. Designing trial projects is one of our best tools IMHO. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Dec 15, 2014 | 10:24 am
#197
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO
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Posts: 29,074
I'd say this is more something that nsx wants & is going to do his best to get through. TB normally didn't push something when approximately 50% of FTers who did take the time to post were against it and when TB members themselves weren't all that supportive. I've certainly not seen TB do so when it was a normal FTer suggesting something that had approximate 50% no votes. As someone noted in a different motion, it's good to be a TB member 
.
Cheers.
.Cheers.
True but irrelevant. And I'm not asking TalkBoard to approve a permanent massive change. Only a minor temporary test.
It is unusual for TalkBoard to take any kind of lead on change, but FT has reached the level of goodness that we have to work harder to find improvements. Designing trial projects is one of our best tools IMHO. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
It is unusual for TalkBoard to take any kind of lead on change, but FT has reached the level of goodness that we have to work harder to find improvements. Designing trial projects is one of our best tools IMHO. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Dec 15, 2014 | 10:54 am
#198
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Uh wait, what? How about doing a member survey/poll BEFORE you even move forward with this idea to see if FT members really, really want a Like button. The fact that you're pushing this without seeking greater FT input basically says to me that you want it & you're going to get it; doesn't really matter what FTers think.
What do you mean the fact that you personally are pushing this is irrelevant. Of course it's relevant. To imply otherwise is insulting to both FTers and your fellow TB members. If you were a regular FTer asking for this & it had approx 50% against the idea, both among regular FTers & TB members, it wouldn't be moving forward. The fact that you're a TB member & can try to push it through is entirely relevant.
BTW - you might want to re-read the guidelines about how TB considers new forums (and I post this for others that might not know). It is not the norm that forums are created with the intention of sunsetting them shortly thereafter (aka, a trial run). That equally applies to this idea. You know that if it goes through the odds of it getting shut down are slim to zip. TB has only shut 3 forums (and one was folded into a larger forum) in its entire 13 year history.
Cheers.
BTW - you might want to re-read the guidelines about how TB considers new forums (and I post this for others that might not know). It is not the norm that forums are created with the intention of sunsetting them shortly thereafter (aka, a trial run). That equally applies to this idea. You know that if it goes through the odds of it getting shut down are slim to zip. TB has only shut 3 forums (and one was folded into a larger forum) in its entire 13 year history.
Cheers.
Dec 15, 2014 | 11:18 am
#199
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
Uh wait, what? How about doing a member survey/poll BEFORE you even move forward with this idea to see if FT members really, really want a Like button. The fact that you're pushing this without seeking greater FT input basically says to me that you want it & you're going to get it; doesn't really matter what FTers think.
What do you mean the fact that you personally are pushing this is irrelevant.
If you were a regular FTer asking for this & it had approx 50% against the idea, both among regular FTers & TB members, it wouldn't be moving forward.
Hey, people thought images would never be approved. People thought term limits could never reach 2/3. I want to find out if there's something we can try for reader feedback. Maybe it will reach 2/3 and maybe not. I haven't counted yet because I don't yet have all the necessary information to write the best proposal. At this point, it's premature to say that anything is "moving forward" or for that matter "moving backward". The proposal is being defined and nobody has been asked to support or oppose it yet.
Dec 15, 2014 | 11:24 am
#200
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
Here's the relevant part of my campaign platform:
I believe I'm doing exactly what I pledged to do: find the best available consensus approach. No more but no less.
This year I want to explore some form of member feedback on posts. It may be as simple as a "Like" button not tied to any further functionality. I want our members to be able to applaud especially good posts and therefore encourage more good posts. Other sites take many different approaches to achieve this goal.
We should pick a simple approach and try it. It's not as if we can't reverse course if necessary. It's true that an attempt many years ago demonstrated that a Dislike button could be abused. That feature should be excluded. It's also true that people feared the effects of implementing image capability in posts, and those fears were not realized. It's time to give this another try, after thinking long and hard about the best way to implement it.
Getting six TalkBoard members to agree on a proposal will be difficult. People thought nobody would ever get six votes for term limits, but I did it. Your votes will help convince TalkBoard members to Like this idea!
We should pick a simple approach and try it. It's not as if we can't reverse course if necessary. It's true that an attempt many years ago demonstrated that a Dislike button could be abused. That feature should be excluded. It's also true that people feared the effects of implementing image capability in posts, and those fears were not realized. It's time to give this another try, after thinking long and hard about the best way to implement it.
Getting six TalkBoard members to agree on a proposal will be difficult. People thought nobody would ever get six votes for term limits, but I did it. Your votes will help convince TalkBoard members to Like this idea!
Dec 15, 2014 | 11:28 am
#201
Moderator: Hilton Honors forums
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
Posts: 25,432
That is simply nothing more than my opinion...
Dec 15, 2014 | 11:44 am
#202
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
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Posts: 102,617
Thanks for the reassurance that we're not playing Whack-a-Mole here.
We didn't have a detailed road map of the sort you want when we tested allowing images in posts. The fact that the horrible situations we feared never happened was sufficient. Even though only a small minority of members used the new feature, the images they posted had indisputable value. Once it was clear that disaster would not occur, a wider rollout occurred, if I recall correctly, by the Community Director without TalkBoard involvement.
Reader feedback is a bit different than images, in that its value is not as obvious. So we have something to demonstrate beyond just avoiding disaster.
In my mind, if a feature pleases 10% of our members and doesn't bother the other 90%, it adds value to FlyerTalk. If a feature improves post quality without bothering members, it adds value. If a feature improves post quantity without degrading post quality, it adds value. These are the three ways in which I expect reader feedback to improve FlyerTalk. This is why I want to test it.
A member survey could address the question of whether members are aware of the new feature, and if so whether it pleases them, bothers them, or neither. That's an easy one.
Improvements in post quality will almost certainly be subtle and essentially invisible. I don't see any way to quantify that, but I'd like to hear any ideas.
Increases in post count will also be small, since reader feedback is such a minor change. We could measure post count, but I doubt the numbers would be meaningful. There is also the Hawthorne Effect to consider.
I want to make this proposal the best it can be, but there will be limits to our knowledge both before and after any trial. At that point we need to apply our own judgment. That's why TalkBoard exists.
A time-limited trial would add information. The only reason not to add information is if one's opinion is immovable no matter what the new information is.
I expect that TalkBoard will be able to see how IB's existing reader feedback capability looks soon. That may alleviate some concerns about a trial.
We didn't have a detailed road map of the sort you want when we tested allowing images in posts. The fact that the horrible situations we feared never happened was sufficient. Even though only a small minority of members used the new feature, the images they posted had indisputable value. Once it was clear that disaster would not occur, a wider rollout occurred, if I recall correctly, by the Community Director without TalkBoard involvement.
Reader feedback is a bit different than images, in that its value is not as obvious. So we have something to demonstrate beyond just avoiding disaster.
In my mind, if a feature pleases 10% of our members and doesn't bother the other 90%, it adds value to FlyerTalk. If a feature improves post quality without bothering members, it adds value. If a feature improves post quantity without degrading post quality, it adds value. These are the three ways in which I expect reader feedback to improve FlyerTalk. This is why I want to test it.
A member survey could address the question of whether members are aware of the new feature, and if so whether it pleases them, bothers them, or neither. That's an easy one.
Improvements in post quality will almost certainly be subtle and essentially invisible. I don't see any way to quantify that, but I'd like to hear any ideas.
Increases in post count will also be small, since reader feedback is such a minor change. We could measure post count, but I doubt the numbers would be meaningful. There is also the Hawthorne Effect to consider.
I want to make this proposal the best it can be, but there will be limits to our knowledge both before and after any trial. At that point we need to apply our own judgment. That's why TalkBoard exists.
A time-limited trial would add information. The only reason not to add information is if one's opinion is immovable no matter what the new information is.
I expect that TalkBoard will be able to see how IB's existing reader feedback capability looks soon. That may alleviate some concerns about a trial.
Also, what about post quantity? Would you say that more posts are necessarily an "improvement"?
On MP, the like feature clearly resulted in a lot of nonsense posts that weren't even fun or amusing in any way, just "hi" and similar wastes of space and people's time. Also on MP, some of the people with many many likes admittedly almost never travel, don't participate in FF or other frequent guest programs, aren't knowledgeable or even trying to learn about airlines, hotels, etc. One wonders why they even joined let alone post on MP but all those likes seem to draw them in for ego gratification or something. It's not helpful to the site other than adding to the counts of members and posts; no information is added either directly or indirectly as a result of all the liking activity.
Dec 15, 2014 | 11:56 am
#203
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
How do you define or measure improvements in post quality? I hope not by the number of likes!
Also, what about post quantity? Would you say that more posts are necessarily an "improvement"?
On MP, the like feature clearly resulted in a lot of nonsense posts that weren't even fun or amusing in any way, just "hi" and similar wastes of space and people's time.
Also, what about post quantity? Would you say that more posts are necessarily an "improvement"?
On MP, the like feature clearly resulted in a lot of nonsense posts that weren't even fun or amusing in any way, just "hi" and similar wastes of space and people's time.
Dec 15, 2014 | 12:03 pm
#204
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
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I fear that once we try a test period, it will be difficult to go back. Certain bells cannot be un-rung easily.
Dec 15, 2014 | 12:15 pm
#205
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
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I was in favor of a test forum, but now that that can't be done, I'm hesitant. I don't see much support here and I think the people who are vocal against the idea, are making some really good points. This means a lot to nsx and I think he believes it's in the best interest of Flyertalk. But until we can define what constitutes success and until I really see that people want this, I don't think this should go forward.
Dec 15, 2014 | 12:55 pm
#206
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
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This approach would set member expectations consistently with using the trial purely as an information gathering exercise.
Dec 15, 2014 | 12:56 pm
#207
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
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Posts: 15,184
...
In my mind, if a feature pleases 10% of our members and doesn't bother the other 90%, it adds value to FlyerTalk. If a feature improves post quality without bothering members, it adds value. If a feature improves post quantity without degrading post quality, it adds value. These are the three ways in which I expect reader feedback to improve FlyerTalk. This is why I want to test it.
...
In my mind, if a feature pleases 10% of our members and doesn't bother the other 90%, it adds value to FlyerTalk. If a feature improves post quality without bothering members, it adds value. If a feature improves post quantity without degrading post quality, it adds value. These are the three ways in which I expect reader feedback to improve FlyerTalk. This is why I want to test it.
...
a) at least a small minority like it and majority of users are not bothered
and/or
b) increased post quantity with post quality unchanged
and/or
c) increase post quality without bothering members
and the suggested way to do it is by adding a "like" button with the resulting like-count attached to posts and/or a list of members liking the post?and/or
b) increased post quantity with post quality unchanged
and/or
c) increase post quality without bothering members
You said that users sometimes does not know what they want until you show it to them. That is very true. But it is also true that users may not know and understand the long term effects of what they are shown. They see only he surface of what you show them. Continuing on the Jobs analogy, when shown new laptops without anti-reflex coating, they users loved the new high contrast displays but didn't understand it would be difficult to use them in a lit setting. When shown the original ipod with polished steel backs they adored the new shiny toy without understanding how easy it was to scratch it.
Some things demos very well. It doesn't mean they are certain to add value.
One recent example is the new premium deals forum. The major change to the structure has apparent and immediate positive effects and many like what they see. Others are very bothered with it. As for the large majority of members I'd guess they are not bothered with the change as they either never saw it or never used it. By your evaluation this is a success and even though some major issues have been raised, it is clear that TB won't even listen to a remodel/take down call for several months, if ever.
My personal view is that quality of posts in that forum have gone down considerably and that the long term effect on the forum, despite all the positive effects, is declining relevance when fewer good deals get posted. If that is what really is happening long term, did that change really add value to FT?
This is why I have an issue with the criteria "doesn't bother others". Sure, I am not bothered with the like-button itself. I can overlook it and never click it. But I am bothered with the long term effects.
Dec 15, 2014 | 3:16 pm
#208
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO
Programs: Lifetime (for now) Gold MM, HH Gold, Giving Tootsie Pops to UA employees, & a retired hockey goalie
Posts: 29,074
Uh wait, what? How about doing a member survey/poll BEFORE you even move forward with this idea to see if FT members really, really want a Like button. The fact that you're pushing this without seeking greater FT input basically says to me that you want it & you're going to get it; doesn't really matter what FTers think.
What do you mean the fact that you personally are pushing this is irrelevant. Of course it's relevant. To imply otherwise is insulting to both FTers and your fellow TB members. If you were a regular FTer asking for this & it had approx 50% against the idea, both among regular FTers & TB members, it wouldn't be moving forward. The fact that you're a TB member & can try to push it through is entirely relevant.
BTW - you might want to re-read the guidelines about how TB considers new forums (and I post this for others that might not know). It is not the norm that forums are created with the intention of sunsetting them shortly thereafter (aka, a trial run). That equally applies to this idea. You know that if it goes through the odds of it getting shut down are slim to zip. TB has only shut 3 forums (and one was folded into a larger forum) in its entire 13 year history.
Cheers.
What do you mean the fact that you personally are pushing this is irrelevant. Of course it's relevant. To imply otherwise is insulting to both FTers and your fellow TB members. If you were a regular FTer asking for this & it had approx 50% against the idea, both among regular FTers & TB members, it wouldn't be moving forward. The fact that you're a TB member & can try to push it through is entirely relevant.
BTW - you might want to re-read the guidelines about how TB considers new forums (and I post this for others that might not know). It is not the norm that forums are created with the intention of sunsetting them shortly thereafter (aka, a trial run). That equally applies to this idea. You know that if it goes through the odds of it getting shut down are slim to zip. TB has only shut 3 forums (and one was folded into a larger forum) in its entire 13 year history.
Cheers.
Dec 15, 2014 | 3:58 pm
#209
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN A-list preferred, United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 22,848
Dec 16, 2014 | 6:15 am
#210
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Posts: 10,188
Bolding mine: Does this mean that TalkBoard has already decided how to vote on this/is ready to approved this?
...
As to the the first part, TalkBoard SHOULD be on on record as to "what comes next" be it shut it down, extend the trial period or close it down-Time to take some responsibility!
[/I]*
...
As to the the first part, TalkBoard SHOULD be on on record as to "what comes next" be it shut it down, extend the trial period or close it down-Time to take some responsibility!
[/I]*
Agree with both.
And of the folk who have posted in the two threads in this forum, 50% are against having a Like feature yet it seems to be moving forward. Heck, even some of the TB members are against it yet it seems to be moving forward. Neither a poll nor sitewide announcement has been done to garner further input, yet it seems to be moving forward.
And of the folk who have posted in the two threads in this forum, 50% are against having a Like feature yet it seems to be moving forward. Heck, even some of the TB members are against it yet it seems to be moving forward. Neither a poll nor sitewide announcement has been done to garner further input, yet it seems to be moving forward.
On your other point, a negative outcome would be a large positive correlation of the "vote" totals with the snarkiness of posts. That to me would qualify as a disaster. Now that I've said that, I have provided any opponents of low integrity a means to sabotage the trial, but such people don't need me to point out what will be obvious to them.
Another negative outcome would be if members find the feature useless or nearly so and it consumes significant screen space. (I don't yet know whether IB's implementation uses any screen space that is not currently empty.)
Another negative outcome would be if posters complain that their good posts are getting no feedback while others' snarky or otherwise deleterious posts are getting positive feedback.
I think it's unlikely to be a difficult decision to call the test a success or a failure. Failure will be especially apparent. In the absence of failure, a member survey will tell us the answer.
Another negative outcome would be if members find the feature useless or nearly so and it consumes significant screen space. (I don't yet know whether IB's implementation uses any screen space that is not currently empty.)
Another negative outcome would be if posters complain that their good posts are getting no feedback while others' snarky or otherwise deleterious posts are getting positive feedback.
I think it's unlikely to be a difficult decision to call the test a success or a failure. Failure will be especially apparent. In the absence of failure, a member survey will tell us the answer.