View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
Signed in members with 90 days / 90 posts can edit this Wikipost; wiki contents may be printed by using the 
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Nov 9, 2014, 11:11 am
#91
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CHA, MAN;
Programs: Delta DM 1 MM; Hz PC
Posts: 11,169
Nov 9, 2014, 1:24 pm
#92
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,194
May I make a reference to a recent post that touches on this topic: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23812047-post86549.html
Nov 9, 2014, 2:08 pm
#93
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CHA, MAN;
Programs: Delta DM 1 MM; Hz PC
Posts: 11,169
May I make a reference to a recent post that touches on this topic: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23812047-post86549.html
Nov 10, 2014, 12:55 am
#95
Join Date: Nov 2014
Programs: DL FO, DL Reserve, AMEX Plat, Priority Pass, Global Entry
Posts: 248
And now here I come too, the guilty party behind the post that brought Gralistair and jackal back here. Allow me please to better explain my post.
First, I don't have a Facebook account, so I don't really know what "Likes" on facebook are about.
However, I do participate on forums that use forum software almost identical to, if not exactly like, the forum software this forum uses.
In this forum software, the word "like" is not the word used to approve a post. In fact, the word "approve" is used. In another forum software that has a different format than this forum, the word "like" is used.
Nevertheless, in both cases... the "approval" is bestowed to the post, not the poster. The reward is directed to the specific instance of behavior, not the perceived general character or likeability of the poster.
On these other forums I participate in, that are related to the industry in which I work, I have found myself in debate with another member who I entirely disagree with, but I will still "like" his post that rips my argument to shreds, because of the salient points he made in his argument.
Even though he disagrees with me, and I remain unconvinced and unmoved by his points, I will still "approve" of his post because of the strength of his argument. Why would I do that? Because THAT is the kind of forum I want to return to. That is the kind of forum that I want to engage in.
Now, had the person whose points I disagreed with resorted to name calling or snide remarks, then no, I woudn't like or approve his/her post, and perhaps no other mature adult would either. And the absence of approval sends the message that no one cares for that kind of name calling, or no one cares one way or another about the post period. Which happens more often than not.
But when a post is approved, by more then one person, that encourages the poster to return to the forum with more quality contributions. With more useful information. With more engaging debate, where the position is challenged, not the poster.
I think it is a nice system, but have seen it abused. I've also observed that there are counter measures to that abuse that are automated in the forum software, but not being a forum administrator, I cannot speak to exactly how those counter measures work.
Anyway, it is just a suggestion whose intent was to give forum readers another way to encourage quality posts that are helpful to the members who read them. This in turn benefits the poster who took the time and trouble to author a good post, because she or he can see the feedback of approval. This in turn, helps new members get an idea of how helpful or informative various posters have been during their tenure on the forums. This encourages more people to be conscious of their verbal behavior on the forum. This in turn makes a better forum, which brings more eyeballs and traffic to the site, which I imagine will lead to the financial payback that allows the forum to continue to serve the members.
Ok, then I woke up.
I realize that no system is perfect, just as no community is. But let me close with one more thought...
I've been trying to read through the 108 page DYKWIA thread on the Delta board. Really amazing stories found there. Reading that thread has helped me become a better flyer already. Just being aware of the extremes that GAs and FAs have to endure from passengers, particularly Medallion members, makes me want to hide my BP and board in Zone 4. While I have never done what I've read about in that thread, now that I've read quite a bit of that thread, I resolve never to even mention status to a an airline employee, for any reason, no matter what status they grant me. I don't ever want to be lumped into that DYKWIA pile of work woes in their minds.
Without that thread, without the insight of stories that I never witnessed, without the knowledge of these anecdotal examples of what is good human behavior and what is really, really awful... I can see how one can drift away from recognizing ones own faux pas that step on the mental toes of others.
Rather than scolding for what is bad, rewarding for what is good is an encouraging way to raise the expectations of better behavior. Sometimes, we just need a little insight from others to steer straighter. At least I do.
Nov 10, 2014, 9:49 am
#96
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CHA, MAN;
Programs: Delta DM 1 MM; Hz PC
Posts: 11,169
-------
In these other forums I participate in, that are related to the industry in which I work, I have found myself in debate with another member who I entirely disagree with, but I will still "like" his post that rips my argument to shreds, because of the salient points he made in his argument.
Even though he disagrees with me, and I remain unconvinced and unmoved by his points, I will still "approve" of his post because of the strength of his argument. Why would I do that? Because THAT is the kind of forum I want to return to. That is the kind of forum that I want to engage in.
Now, had the person whose points I disagreed with resorted to name calling or snide remarks, then no, I woudn't like or approve his/her post, and perhaps no other mature adult would either. And the absence of approval sends the message that no one cares for that kind of name calling, or no one cares one way or another about the post period. Which happens more often than not.
But when a post is approved, by more then one person, that encourages the poster to return to the forum with more quality contributions. With more useful information. With more engaging debate, where the position is challenged, not the poster.
I think it is a nice system, but have seen it abused. I've also observed that there are counter measures to that abuse that are automated in the forum software, but not being a forum administrator, I cannot speak to exactly how those counter measures work.
Anyway, it is just a suggestion whose intent was to give forum readers another way to encourage quality posts that are helpful to the members who read them. This in turn benefits the poster who took the time and trouble to author a good post, because she or he can see the feedback of approval. This in turn, helps new members get an idea of how helpful or informative various posters have been during their tenure on the forums. This encourages more people to be conscious of their verbal behavior on the forum. This in turn makes a better forum, which brings more eyeballs and traffic to the site, which I imagine will lead to the financial payback that allows the forum to continue to serve the members.
Ok, then I woke up.
I realize that no system is perfect, just as no community is. But let me close with one more thought...
I've been trying to read through the 108 page DYKWIA thread on the Delta board. Really amazing stories found there. Reading that thread has helped me become a better flyer already. Just being aware of the extremes that GAs and FAs have to endure from passengers, particularly Medallion members, makes me want to hide my BP and board in Zone 4. While I have never done what I've read about in that thread, now that I've read quite a bit of that thread, I resolve never to even mention status to a an airline employee, for any reason, no matter what status they grant me. I don't ever want to be lumped into that DYKWIA pile of work woes in their minds.
Without that thread, without the insight of stories that I never witnessed, without the knowledge of these anecdotal examples of what is good human behavior and what is really, really awful... I can see how one can drift away from recognizing ones own faux pas that step on the mental toes of others.
Rather than scolding for what is bad, rewarding for what is good is an encouraging way to raise the expectations of better behavior. Sometimes, we just need a little insight from others to steer straighter. At least I do.
In these other forums I participate in, that are related to the industry in which I work, I have found myself in debate with another member who I entirely disagree with, but I will still "like" his post that rips my argument to shreds, because of the salient points he made in his argument.
Even though he disagrees with me, and I remain unconvinced and unmoved by his points, I will still "approve" of his post because of the strength of his argument. Why would I do that? Because THAT is the kind of forum I want to return to. That is the kind of forum that I want to engage in.
Now, had the person whose points I disagreed with resorted to name calling or snide remarks, then no, I woudn't like or approve his/her post, and perhaps no other mature adult would either. And the absence of approval sends the message that no one cares for that kind of name calling, or no one cares one way or another about the post period. Which happens more often than not.
But when a post is approved, by more then one person, that encourages the poster to return to the forum with more quality contributions. With more useful information. With more engaging debate, where the position is challenged, not the poster.
I think it is a nice system, but have seen it abused. I've also observed that there are counter measures to that abuse that are automated in the forum software, but not being a forum administrator, I cannot speak to exactly how those counter measures work.
Anyway, it is just a suggestion whose intent was to give forum readers another way to encourage quality posts that are helpful to the members who read them. This in turn benefits the poster who took the time and trouble to author a good post, because she or he can see the feedback of approval. This in turn, helps new members get an idea of how helpful or informative various posters have been during their tenure on the forums. This encourages more people to be conscious of their verbal behavior on the forum. This in turn makes a better forum, which brings more eyeballs and traffic to the site, which I imagine will lead to the financial payback that allows the forum to continue to serve the members.
Ok, then I woke up.
I realize that no system is perfect, just as no community is. But let me close with one more thought...
I've been trying to read through the 108 page DYKWIA thread on the Delta board. Really amazing stories found there. Reading that thread has helped me become a better flyer already. Just being aware of the extremes that GAs and FAs have to endure from passengers, particularly Medallion members, makes me want to hide my BP and board in Zone 4. While I have never done what I've read about in that thread, now that I've read quite a bit of that thread, I resolve never to even mention status to a an airline employee, for any reason, no matter what status they grant me. I don't ever want to be lumped into that DYKWIA pile of work woes in their minds.
Without that thread, without the insight of stories that I never witnessed, without the knowledge of these anecdotal examples of what is good human behavior and what is really, really awful... I can see how one can drift away from recognizing ones own faux pas that step on the mental toes of others.
Rather than scolding for what is bad, rewarding for what is good is an encouraging way to raise the expectations of better behavior. Sometimes, we just need a little insight from others to steer straighter. At least I do.
)
Nov 16, 2014, 9:54 pm
#97
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On the road somewhere
Programs: DL, National, Marriott, Hilton
Posts: 4,304
I don't think a "Like" or "Thanks" button would help anyone. Too much like Facebook (and MilePoint).
A reputation system could work where people up/down a post, however that may not be the best option IMO.
A reputation system could work where people up/down a post, however that may not be the best option IMO.
Nov 17, 2014, 11:58 am
#98
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Wanting First. Buying First.
Programs: Lifetime Executive Diamond Platinum VIP with Braniff, Eastern, Midway, National & Pan Am
Posts: 17,492
Nov 17, 2014, 12:59 pm
#99
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,194
Nov 17, 2014, 8:26 pm
#100
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Durham, NC (RDU/GSO/CLT)
Programs: AA EXP/MM, DL GM, UA Platinum, HH DIA, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Platinum, Marriott Titanium, Hertz PC
Posts: 33,857
Nov 18, 2014, 12:10 am
#101
Join Date: Nov 2014
Programs: DL FO, DL Reserve, AMEX Plat, Priority Pass, Global Entry
Posts: 248
I'm often surprised when my (more often that not TOO wordy) posts are "liked" on the few forums I have frequented. The affirmation helps me know that there is at least some resonating frequency in common with others who feel the same way, even though they may not have had the time to articulate them.
I am equally edified (well, maybe more like mortified) when, after posting something I feel strongly about, and took great pains to advocate... is met with crickets.
It is interesting to discover those areas of ambivalence, as well as alignment, even if in anonymity.
As for the "dumbing down" of the internet, nothing is "dumber" than the ridicule and name calling that is so easily spewed and enabled by anonymity. I was surprised to find that in some forums on flyertalk, but even more surprised to find it on a retiree forum I frequent. Experts say we revert to children again as we age... well by gum they're right!
Any measure that is taken to reward respect, civility, and maturity in conversation makes for a more sustainable online community. I'm sure both the proponents and opponents share that goal in considering (or vetoing) some type of reward system for useful posts (aka "likes").
Nov 18, 2014, 8:30 am
#102
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Durham, NC (RDU/GSO/CLT)
Programs: AA EXP/MM, DL GM, UA Platinum, HH DIA, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Platinum, Marriott Titanium, Hertz PC
Posts: 33,857
Well said. I'm also worried that the like button turns the website into a popularity contest. I'm certainly guilty of writing posts for Facebook I know will get a lot of "likes". I don't want people to think the same way about posts for FT.
Nov 18, 2014, 10:14 am
#103
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,624
These are not rhetorical questions. We need to fully understand people's opinions on this subject before we can hope to find a proposal that will make sense to all. Otherwise we are just talking past each other.
Nov 18, 2014, 1:12 pm
#104
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Durham, NC (RDU/GSO/CLT)
Programs: AA EXP/MM, DL GM, UA Platinum, HH DIA, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Platinum, Marriott Titanium, Hertz PC
Posts: 33,857
Having spent a lot of time in the Delta forum, I tend to have a negative view of trying to increase the entertainment value of their posts. I could link a lot of posts that I think reflected badly on Flyertalk as a whole. I like our sense of community but I don't want Flyertalk to turn into a cliquish place with everyone trying to one up each other on being funny and getting likes. I want this to stay a place where we talk about miles/points/travel etc. and focus most on that.
Nov 18, 2014, 1:19 pm
#105
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,624
Having spent a lot of time in the Delta forum, I tend to have a negative view of trying to increase the entertainment value of their posts. I could link a lot of posts that I think reflected badly on Flyertalk as a whole. I like our sense of community but I don't want Flyertalk to turn into a cliquish place with everyone trying to one up each other on being funny and getting likes. I want this to stay a place where we talk about miles/points/travel etc. and focus most on that.