View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Dec 11, 2014, 1:43 pm
#136
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Dec 11, 2014, 1:45 pm
#137
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
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As to the choice of test forum, we could run the trial in some really contentious forum, but that carries more risk than Trip Reports. I do believe if we decide to proceed to a second trial forum it should be the most challenging one we can think of. Then we will have the necessary evidence to kill the experiment if that's what needs to happen.
This whole process of finding out what actually works best for our members might take a couple years. I'm in no hurry, since we've been taking about this feature many years with no action except one poorly designed effort.
This whole process of finding out what actually works best for our members might take a couple years. I'm in no hurry, since we've been taking about this feature many years with no action except one poorly designed effort.
I understand that some people are certain the feature will have no value. What I have trouble understanding is some people also are so sure of their assessment that they oppose a trial to gather more information, information which could surprise all of us.
Last edited by nsx; Dec 11, 2014 at 1:51 pm
Dec 11, 2014, 2:04 pm
#138
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Well one of my concerns is that the button will make Flyertalk into more of a popularity contest. I think an airline forum might sharpen my fears without showing me the button's usefulness. That seems to be less of an issue in hotel forums and travel safety & security though so I'd be more inclined to start it there.
Dec 11, 2014, 2:21 pm
#139
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Here's what I posted in the private forum about that:
If the other TalkBoard members would prefer to go directly to the trial by fire, I would support that. I just think working out any glaring problems in Trip Reports first is a safer way to proceed. But you are absolutely correct that we need the trial by fire at some point.
I understand that some people are certain the feature will have no value. What I have trouble understanding is some people also are so sure of their assessment that they oppose a trial to gather more information, information which could surprise all of us.
If the other TalkBoard members would prefer to go directly to the trial by fire, I would support that. I just think working out any glaring problems in Trip Reports first is a safer way to proceed. But you are absolutely correct that we need the trial by fire at some point.
I understand that some people are certain the feature will have no value. What I have trouble understanding is some people also are so sure of their assessment that they oppose a trial to gather more information, information which could surprise all of us.
While I don't think FT needs any kind of "reader feedback" mechanism, if that's what the overwhelming majority of FTers want, I would not oppose simply because of my own thoughts on the matter.
Dec 11, 2014, 2:29 pm
#140
Ambassador, New England
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Maineiac, USA
Programs: Amtrak, WN RR, Choice
Posts: 2,655
Would it be possible, perhaps via a site-wide announcement from the CD, to conduct a poll of FT users on whether this feature would be wanted? This thread and the other one are just a very small sample of FT membership.
Dec 11, 2014, 2:31 pm
#141
Moderator: Hilton Honors forums
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
Posts: 24,997
While not a perfect mechanism for gauging what members of FlyerTalk want, it does give a quick visual idea on helping to decide how to proceed, in my opinion...
Dec 11, 2014, 2:35 pm
#142
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,059
Dec 11, 2014, 5:12 pm
#143
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO
Programs: Lifetime (for now) Gold MM, HH Gold, Giving Tootsie Pops to UA employees, & a retired hockey goalie
Posts: 28,878
Well one of my concerns is that the button will make Flyertalk into more of a popularity contest. I think an airline forum might sharpen my fears without showing me the button's usefulness. That seems to be less of an issue in hotel forums and travel safety & security though so I'd be more inclined to start it there.
Assuming members actually participate in the poll and read this (and the "informative button" threads" as opposed to posting "hey, I just noticed this button thingy! When did that happen"
Originally Posted by nsx
Here's what I posted in the private forum about that:
If the other TalkBoard members would prefer to go directly to the trial by fire, I would support that. I just think working out any glaring problems in Trip Reports first is a safer way to proceed. But you are absolutely correct that we need the trial by fire at some point.
I understand that some people are certain the feature will have no value. What I have trouble understanding is some people also are so sure of their assessment that they oppose a trial to gather more information, information which could surprise all of us.
If the other TalkBoard members would prefer to go directly to the trial by fire, I would support that. I just think working out any glaring problems in Trip Reports first is a safer way to proceed. But you are absolutely correct that we need the trial by fire at some point.
I understand that some people are certain the feature will have no value. What I have trouble understanding is some people also are so sure of their assessment that they oppose a trial to gather more information, information which could surprise all of us.
*We could ask CMK10
**COdbaUA has done and is notorious for doing that and some of us know how that works out
Dec 11, 2014, 5:35 pm
#144
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,059
Bolding mine: Agreed ^ and how does the like/helpful button stay honest? Or in other words, what's to stop someone from liking/helfulling a post "just because they wanted to (or even if the post content is flat out wrong and thus not helpful). What does that do for folks who see a post marked as liked/helpful where it's obviously not helpful?
Assuming members actually participate in the poll and read this (and the "informative button" threads" as opposed to posting "hey, I just noticed this button thingy! When did that happen"
Bolding mine: What I have trouble with is a proposal which folks are hellbent on pushing thru and then lo and behold, there's a lot of opposition to it so let's take the easy way out and try and sneak it in via a back/side or lower traffic door as imho, THAT is taking the easy way out. Now for sake of argument, let's say the trial gets moved, seconded voted on and passed-is there a time limit as to "the trial"*, how do you propose closing the trial because it didn't work, how do you prose to roll it out if the trial succeeds? I personally think that hoemwork should be done by the folks who want to see this happen and not put F/t'ers in as the beta testers**. And as I posed above, how does the like/helpful button stay honest? Or in other words, what's to stop someone from liking/helfulling a post "just because they wanted to (or even if the post content is flat out wrong and thus not helpful). What does that do for folks who see a post marked as liked/helpful where it's obviously not helpful?
*We could ask CMK10
**COdbaUA has done and is notorious for doing that and some of us know how that works out
Assuming members actually participate in the poll and read this (and the "informative button" threads" as opposed to posting "hey, I just noticed this button thingy! When did that happen"
Bolding mine: What I have trouble with is a proposal which folks are hellbent on pushing thru and then lo and behold, there's a lot of opposition to it so let's take the easy way out and try and sneak it in via a back/side or lower traffic door as imho, THAT is taking the easy way out. Now for sake of argument, let's say the trial gets moved, seconded voted on and passed-is there a time limit as to "the trial"*, how do you propose closing the trial because it didn't work, how do you prose to roll it out if the trial succeeds? I personally think that hoemwork should be done by the folks who want to see this happen and not put F/t'ers in as the beta testers**. And as I posed above, how does the like/helpful button stay honest? Or in other words, what's to stop someone from liking/helfulling a post "just because they wanted to (or even if the post content is flat out wrong and thus not helpful). What does that do for folks who see a post marked as liked/helpful where it's obviously not helpful?
*We could ask CMK10
**COdbaUA has done and is notorious for doing that and some of us know how that works out
Dec 11, 2014, 6:14 pm
#145
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
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As to goalie's request for a time limit on the test I don't object to that if the other TalkBoard members prefer it that way.
goalie would you prefer a two phase test or a single trial by fire? I don't mind that two phases will take longer but i suppose there is entertainment value in a quick and spectacular failure.
Dec 11, 2014, 6:14 pm
#146
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
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And btw, to Goalie, one of my suggestions was not allowing people to use the "Like" feature unless they met similar qualifications to posting in OMNI/CC. I figured that might help a little.
Dec 11, 2014, 6:30 pm
#147
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
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As to goalie's other request to set out a rollout plan, that's premature. With images we had plenty of concerns and no such plan. It was step by step as I recall. In that case results were surprisingly trouble-free. I hope for that outcome but nobody knows yet. The current TalkBoard should not pretend it can tie the hands of future TalkBoards or the Community Director who will have better information after any trial.
So in summary ideally it will work like images did. Time will tell.
So in summary ideally it will work like images did. Time will tell.
Dec 11, 2014, 6:35 pm
#148
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
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CMK10 I intend to poll TalkBoard members on each feature and put the most favored features together before voting on anything.
By the way regardless of whether anything happens on this idea I hope this thread serves as a good example of how to take our time developing the best available consensus. That's a large part of why I'm doing this on the public forum almost exclusively. What you see here is very nearly exactly what normally happens in the private forum.
By the way regardless of whether anything happens on this idea I hope this thread serves as a good example of how to take our time developing the best available consensus. That's a large part of why I'm doing this on the public forum almost exclusively. What you see here is very nearly exactly what normally happens in the private forum.
Dec 11, 2014, 6:41 pm
#149
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Either the community director or the TalkBoard of this year or next. Probably the CD since she has a more complete picture. However the TalkBoard isn't approving expansion until after hearing from the CD and voting on a new proposal.
As to goalie's request for a time limit on the test I don't object to that if the other TalkBoard members prefer it that way.
goalie would you prefer a two phase test or a single trial by fire? I don't mind that two phases will take longer but i suppose there is entertainment value in a quick and spectacular failure.
As to goalie's request for a time limit on the test I don't object to that if the other TalkBoard members prefer it that way.
goalie would you prefer a two phase test or a single trial by fire? I don't mind that two phases will take longer but i suppose there is entertainment value in a quick and spectacular failure.
As to goalie's other request to set out a rollout plan, that's premature. With images we had plenty of concerns and no such plan. It was step by step as I recall. In that case results were surprisingly trouble-free. I hope for that outcome but nobody knows yet. The current TalkBoard should not pretend it can tie the hands of future TalkBoards or the Community Director who will have better information after any trial.
So in summary ideally it will work like images did. Time will tell.
So in summary ideally it will work like images did. Time will tell.
Dec 11, 2014, 6:55 pm
#150
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
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No. Read the working draft. If approved in that form it puts TalkBoard on record as making no recommendation about wider use of reader feedback. In other words I am speaking of a proposal in which TalkBoard will speak for itself.