View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Dec 16, 2014, 9:50 am
#211
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,417
I think it's VERY IMPORTANT to consider carefully how any question(s) in a poll will be worded and what alternatative responses will be offered. Carelessly worded polls can give very misleading conclusions.
Dec 16, 2014, 10:13 am
#212
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,625
What if anything would you like TalkBoard to do about an "I found this post helpful" button or a similar form of reader feedback?
1. Nothing. Reader feedback will not improve FlyerTalk.
2. Experiment with reader feedback for a limited time and/or in selected forums.
3. Just add the button. It will improve FlyerTalk.
1. Nothing. Reader feedback will not improve FlyerTalk.
2. Experiment with reader feedback for a limited time and/or in selected forums.
3. Just add the button. It will improve FlyerTalk.
Dec 16, 2014, 10:19 am
#213
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
/Mod hat off, merely asking for consideration on a broader basis
There's the other thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...-feedback.html), which I'd refer people to, which moots about a somewhat similar feature: a "Helpful post" or like feedback counter, as opposed to what in my opinion is a much more ambiguous and broadly interpreted "Like".
Just what does it imply when I "Like" a post? Good, useful information, clearly presented? Great humor? Is this post fun or clever? Do I like this poster? Am I merely "Liking" another's "like" whilst attempting to give further "likeness" to another post?
How does a feedback mechanism reflect the purpose and values of FlyerTalk? MP is, IMO, a good reference point for what "Like" might bring.
There's the other thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...-feedback.html), which I'd refer people to, which moots about a somewhat similar feature: a "Helpful post" or like feedback counter, as opposed to what in my opinion is a much more ambiguous and broadly interpreted "Like".
Just what does it imply when I "Like" a post? Good, useful information, clearly presented? Great humor? Is this post fun or clever? Do I like this poster? Am I merely "Liking" another's "like" whilst attempting to give further "likeness" to another post?
How does a feedback mechanism reflect the purpose and values of FlyerTalk? MP is, IMO, a good reference point for what "Like" might bring.
Last edited by JDiver; Dec 16, 2014 at 10:33 am
Dec 16, 2014, 10:23 am
#214
Join Date: Feb 2004
Programs: AA 'kettle', Marriott Gold, ICH Gld, Hertz 5*
Posts: 5,258
I don't normally get into this part of Flyertalk but punched the 'new posts' button, saw this thread and thought I'd share my experiences as a moderator of another forum (different content but on vBulletin) that has used the 'like' button for a couple years.
1. I haven't seen it cut down dramatically, or even a little, on '^^^^^ this!' type responses under full quotes of another post.
2. Our system shows the members who liked a post in a list at the bottom of the post and I've noted this to have become a method where often cliques exert political pressure on postings or threads, where one member of the clique posts up a missile at a fellow member and the others chime in with likes. A system which only shows number of likes and doesn't identify members visibly to other members could mitigate the politics of that somewhat, but not completely.
3. The use of the ignore list, in our software iteration and settings by the site owner, disallows a member from liking the post of another member they have on ignore but allows the ignored member to like their post. This arrangement has also been used to harass members, especially those who have like notifications turned on in their profile.
The subject matter is quite different than that of Flyertalk, and perhaps more potentially contentious or inflammatory but, if I had a button to take the like system off our forum today, I'd do it right now. I don't own the site so that won't happen.
Good luck in your choices.
1. I haven't seen it cut down dramatically, or even a little, on '^^^^^ this!' type responses under full quotes of another post.
2. Our system shows the members who liked a post in a list at the bottom of the post and I've noted this to have become a method where often cliques exert political pressure on postings or threads, where one member of the clique posts up a missile at a fellow member and the others chime in with likes. A system which only shows number of likes and doesn't identify members visibly to other members could mitigate the politics of that somewhat, but not completely.
3. The use of the ignore list, in our software iteration and settings by the site owner, disallows a member from liking the post of another member they have on ignore but allows the ignored member to like their post. This arrangement has also been used to harass members, especially those who have like notifications turned on in their profile.
The subject matter is quite different than that of Flyertalk, and perhaps more potentially contentious or inflammatory but, if I had a button to take the like system off our forum today, I'd do it right now. I don't own the site so that won't happen.
Good luck in your choices.
Dec 16, 2014, 10:35 am
#215
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
Thanks for weighing in with your experiences and views, carmachinist.
Dec 16, 2014, 10:53 am
#216
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,062
Agreed. I'd like to compile a list of alternatives for a poll so we don't exclude anyone's preferred option. Here is a partial list of iterms:
I don't think it's practical to explore opinions on features and functions (e.g., I think we have to set aside any "dislike" button for this poll). But I want to make sure that the poll is complete to maximize its usefulness to TalkBoard.
I don't think it's practical to explore opinions on features and functions (e.g., I think we have to set aside any "dislike" button for this poll). But I want to make sure that the poll is complete to maximize its usefulness to TalkBoard.
I'd limit the scope of the poll to:
Nothing
Trial for 1 month (or whatever amount of time), and then reevaluate
Dec 16, 2014, 11:00 am
#217
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,625
In short, I don't regard the limited scope trial as off the table just because some coding is needed. If it's the right answer we should pursue it.
Dec 16, 2014, 11:03 am
#218
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,625
The use of the ignore list, in our software iteration and settings by the site owner, disallows a member from liking the post of another member they have on ignore but allows the ignored member to like their post. This arrangement has also been used to harass members, especially those who have like notifications turned on in their profile.
Your experience on abuse of the visible identities of voters is especially helpful. I never would have imagined that one. Apparently even simple reader feedback can be complicated.
Dec 16, 2014, 11:17 am
#219
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,062
I intend this week to check out IB's ability and willingness to implement a restriction of the feature to selected forums. To me, a limited time sitewide test would be a distant second choice compared to a test forum or two. If implementing that change is a small job, and if TalkBoard wants to do a limited scope trial, I'd press IB to write the necessary code for us.
In short, I don't regard the limited scope trial as off the table just because some coding is needed. If it's the right answer we should pursue it.
In short, I don't regard the limited scope trial as off the table just because some coding is needed. If it's the right answer we should pursue it.
I have gotten some information and Carol's permission to share it. IB's existing software has a reader feedback plug-in that apparently only needs to be configured and turned on. Because it already exists, it will not delay other developments, such as the mobile improvements we all crave.
That's the good news. The bad news is that it can be turned on by categories of members (like access to The Coupon Connection or OMNI) but it cannot be enabled or disabled forum by forum. That's disappointing to me.
Carol decided on her own (I didn't even think of asking her) to turn this feature on for moderators to get their reactions on how it looks and works in the moderators' private forum. If IB can easily give the same capability to non-moderator TalkBoard members, that would be even better.
After getting initial reactions, Carol could proceed on her own to turn the feature on for more users, shut the thing down, or ask TalkBoard for advice.
TalkBoard could provide advice on whether an FT-wide trial should take place, its duration, membership requirements (posts and tenure) to use the reader feedback button, the wording of the button, and any other configurable features (of which I do not yet have a list). Since there's no hurry, I think TalkBoard should stand by on these questions until the internal trial occurs.
I would have preferred a single-forum public trial, but we will not get that unless someone at IB decides to write some code just for us. I do intend to find out how much effort that would be for them. I will ask permission to share that information with Carol and TalkBoard and our members in this forum.
That's the good news. The bad news is that it can be turned on by categories of members (like access to The Coupon Connection or OMNI) but it cannot be enabled or disabled forum by forum. That's disappointing to me.
Carol decided on her own (I didn't even think of asking her) to turn this feature on for moderators to get their reactions on how it looks and works in the moderators' private forum. If IB can easily give the same capability to non-moderator TalkBoard members, that would be even better.
After getting initial reactions, Carol could proceed on her own to turn the feature on for more users, shut the thing down, or ask TalkBoard for advice.
TalkBoard could provide advice on whether an FT-wide trial should take place, its duration, membership requirements (posts and tenure) to use the reader feedback button, the wording of the button, and any other configurable features (of which I do not yet have a list). Since there's no hurry, I think TalkBoard should stand by on these questions until the internal trial occurs.
I would have preferred a single-forum public trial, but we will not get that unless someone at IB decides to write some code just for us. I do intend to find out how much effort that would be for them. I will ask permission to share that information with Carol and TalkBoard and our members in this forum.
Dec 16, 2014, 11:27 am
#220
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,417
Agreed. I'd like to compile a list of alternatives for a poll so we don't exclude anyone's preferred option. Here is a partial list of iterms:
I don't think it's practical to explore opinions on features and functions (e.g., I think we have to set aside any "dislike" button for this poll). But I want to make sure that the poll is complete to maximize its usefulness to TalkBoard.
I don't think it's practical to explore opinions on features and functions (e.g., I think we have to set aside any "dislike" button for this poll). But I want to make sure that the poll is complete to maximize its usefulness to TalkBoard.
Dec 16, 2014, 11:37 am
#221
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,625
"Dislike" is sufficiently disliked (even by me) that I'm happy to drop further consideration of it. I mentioned its exclusion as an example of how the poll would not be able to accommodate opinions on all facets of reader feedback.
Dec 16, 2014, 11:59 am
#222
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,182
Gather a clique of suporters and have them like your statements. Since most members won't use the feature, a small clique can upvote selected posts to stand out. If my posts all have 50 likes and your posts have just a few, it looks like my opinion is "the right one" and discussion will die down. Even though 50 likes are less than 0,01% of the member base.
I have found most posts in this thread to be informative or otherwise interesting. Would FT benefit more from me clicking like on everything I like, or from me engaging in debate on my own credentials?
Dec 16, 2014, 12:11 pm
#223
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,625
But I do understand your point. We don't want upvotes to become a game rather than merely encouraging valuable posts.
Dec 16, 2014, 12:47 pm
#224
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,182
Dec 16, 2014, 1:17 pm
#225
Join Date: Feb 2004
Programs: AA 'kettle', Marriott Gold, ICH Gld, Hertz 5*
Posts: 5,258
I didn't read the whole thread so am unclear on the exact system being suggested here; our system only allows a member to like a post, and later unlike (take their like away) a post. Posts cannot be 'voted down', meaning 'dislikes' being tallied publicly. Members on moderation (postings reviewed by moderation) can still access the like system. Members on temporary or permanent suspension (access to the site as a posting member removed) cannot access the like system.
There is a 'like tally' which floats at the top right of each thread, showing the number of likes that posts in a particular thread have received. What I find interesting is, generally like FT, hardly anyone uses the "Rate this thread" feature (the star system).
In our case we didn't have a debate period prior to the system starting. It simply showed up one day. We have a much smaller forum, only about .38MM members and about 5.2MM posts, and don't have the large management structure that FT has. IMO, input and discussion can be helpful in such matters.
If FT were to implement such a system, my vote would be for an anonymous " ^
" type system similar to that of youtube and other sites.
There is a 'like tally' which floats at the top right of each thread, showing the number of likes that posts in a particular thread have received. What I find interesting is, generally like FT, hardly anyone uses the "Rate this thread" feature (the star system).
In our case we didn't have a debate period prior to the system starting. It simply showed up one day. We have a much smaller forum, only about .38MM members and about 5.2MM posts, and don't have the large management structure that FT has. IMO, input and discussion can be helpful in such matters.
If FT were to implement such a system, my vote would be for an anonymous " ^
" type system similar to that of youtube and other sites.
Last edited by camachinist; Dec 16, 2014 at 1:33 pm Reason: Rechecked member/post stats and updated