View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Dec 18, 2014, 10:11 am
#256
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Posts: 5,258
I voted 'support' because, one, I like IB's choice of word, if a word must be assigned to the function as opposed to an icon, and, two, I hope if the TalkBoard considers the addition of the feature, they'll carefully consider the value of maintaining 'helpful' votes as anonymous, much as the voting is here in this thread. My vote isn't anonymous because I made that choice but the poll defaults to the function of anonymity. Having created a lot of polls in vBulletin, I know they can identify voters or remain anonymous. Good luck with the voting and your decision!
Dec 18, 2014, 6:22 pm
#257
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I voted 'support' because, one, I like IB's choice of word, if a word must be assigned to the function as opposed to an icon, and, two, I hope if the TalkBoard considers the addition of the feature, they'll carefully consider the value of maintaining 'helpful' votes as anonymous, much as the voting is here in this thread. My vote isn't anonymous because I made that choice but the poll defaults to the function of anonymity. Having created a lot of polls in vBulletin, I know they can identify voters or remain anonymous. Good luck with the voting and your decision!
The "anonymous" rating/reputation feature -- not so "anonymous" really -- was part of what contributed to the attacks (and pack attacks) which led up to the pulling of the first FT rating system open to all posting-enabled FTers.
Dec 19, 2014, 6:43 am
#258
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
definitely
My vote is strongly in support of adding this feature.
Dec 19, 2014, 7:44 am
#259
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Posts: 71,114
As a TB member, I've linked this thread in my signature; perhaps doing so will give this discussion some more visibility (I hope!).
Agree a poll is a good start. It seems the perception on how may favor or are against this varies.
I think a plan is important - be it a test thread, poll, etc.
I think it seems some want the perception it's moving forward...
I think it's important to consider the negatives; as others have stated, MP definitely shows many "like" just for the sake of doing so. Of course, snark bleeds out regardless in many instances.
Agree a poll is a good start. It seems the perception on how may favor or are against this varies.
I think a plan is important - be it a test thread, poll, etc.
I think it seems some want the perception it's moving forward...
I think it's important to consider the negatives; as others have stated, MP definitely shows many "like" just for the sake of doing so. Of course, snark bleeds out regardless in many instances.
I don't normally get into this part of Flyertalk but punched the 'new posts' button, saw this thread and thought I'd share my experiences as a moderator of another forum (different content but on vBulletin) that has used the 'like' button for a couple years.
1. I haven't seen it cut down dramatically, or even a little, on '^^^^^ this!' type responses under full quotes of another post.
2. Our system shows the members who liked a post in a list at the bottom of the post and I've noted this to have become a method where often cliques exert political pressure on postings or threads, where one member of the clique posts up a missile at a fellow member and the others chime in with likes. A system which only shows number of likes and doesn't identify members visibly to other members could mitigate the politics of that somewhat, but not completely.
3. The use of the ignore list, in our software iteration and settings by the site owner, disallows a member from liking the post of another member they have on ignore but allows the ignored member to like their post. This arrangement has also been used to harass members, especially those who have like notifications turned on in their profile.
4. The subject matter is quite different than that of Flyertalk, and perhaps more potentially contentious or inflammatory but, if I had a button to take the like system off our forum today, I'd do it right now. I don't own the site so that won't happen.
Good luck in your choices.
1. I haven't seen it cut down dramatically, or even a little, on '^^^^^ this!' type responses under full quotes of another post.
2. Our system shows the members who liked a post in a list at the bottom of the post and I've noted this to have become a method where often cliques exert political pressure on postings or threads, where one member of the clique posts up a missile at a fellow member and the others chime in with likes. A system which only shows number of likes and doesn't identify members visibly to other members could mitigate the politics of that somewhat, but not completely.
3. The use of the ignore list, in our software iteration and settings by the site owner, disallows a member from liking the post of another member they have on ignore but allows the ignored member to like their post. This arrangement has also been used to harass members, especially those who have like notifications turned on in their profile.
4. The subject matter is quite different than that of Flyertalk, and perhaps more potentially contentious or inflammatory but, if I had a button to take the like system off our forum today, I'd do it right now. I don't own the site so that won't happen.
Good luck in your choices.
2. And that could be a problem here as well, not to mention it takes up real estate when reading threads. I personally could care less about likes - the content of the post is what's important to me, not whether someone liked it or not - but I also don't want to have to read after each post how many likes it got & who did them, even if truncated. This is especially true when I'm reading on a mobile device. It's also one of the reasons that I don't frequent MP. Between the avatars & the likes it's just a big mess & makes it harder to read the actual post.
3. So, inadvertently a way to game the system. You do bring up an interesting point though, and one I'd like nsx or someone to ask IB. If by chance this moved ahead, is there the ability to disable seeing Like, as there is with turning off signatures??
4. Thanks for the input on you wish you could make Like go away on your other forum.
And right there you just demostrated the potential negative skewing effects of a like system.
Gather a clique of suporters and have them like your statements. Since most members won't use the feature, a small clique can upvote selected posts to stand out. If my posts all have 50 likes and your posts have just a few, it looks like my opinion is "the right one" and discussion will die down. Even though 50 likes are less than 0,01% of the member base.
I have found most posts in this thread to be informative or otherwise interesting. Would FT benefit more from me clicking like on everything I like, or from me engaging in debate on my own credentials?
Gather a clique of suporters and have them like your statements. Since most members won't use the feature, a small clique can upvote selected posts to stand out. If my posts all have 50 likes and your posts have just a few, it looks like my opinion is "the right one" and discussion will die down. Even though 50 likes are less than 0,01% of the member base.
I have found most posts in this thread to be informative or otherwise interesting. Would FT benefit more from me clicking like on everything I like, or from me engaging in debate on my own credentials?
I don't think software can prevent all possible gaming. I expect any trial to demonstrate that FlyerTalk members are a cut above and therefore will not play every game they can think of to abuse reader feedback.
FlyerTalk members are more mature than typical Internet users, so it makes sense to expect proper behavior.
FlyerTalk members are more mature than typical Internet users, so it makes sense to expect proper behavior.
)The previous rating system that FT put up and then pulled -- because it was "abused" even on FTer birthday posts -- brings into doubt the assertion that the FT point game players won't play games to score points for or against individuals even when there is no post content to criticize unless the point is to criticize the individual or appear to be a good or bad "gang" member.
The gaming behavior that goes on (or does not go on) in trial periods may be different than the gaming behavior that goes on later -- different in nature and quantity. And then you'll say the mods can deal with it or rules can be changed?
The gaming behavior that goes on (or does not go on) in trial periods may be different than the gaming behavior that goes on later -- different in nature and quantity. And then you'll say the mods can deal with it or rules can be changed?
That's a really good point, presuming social weight is assigned to likes and/or like totals, and brings up a couple more relevant comments:
1. On our forum, once a response to a posting has been placed, editing of any prior posting is disallowed, except by a moderator or administrator. That's very different from FlyerTalk. Even if a post doesn't follow, an existing post can only be user-edited for about 30 minutes and then it's essentially cast in stone. Any edits by moderation appear as notated at the bottom of the post similar to FT.
2. A member's 'like totals', both received and given, are displayed in their public profile and, when clicked on, a list of the precise postings they have been liked for or liked is returned and any member can peruse those postings. Experience varies but like totals can be or become a measure of social 'popularity' and the basis for political activities.
1. On our forum, once a response to a posting has been placed, editing of any prior posting is disallowed, except by a moderator or administrator. That's very different from FlyerTalk. Even if a post doesn't follow, an existing post can only be user-edited for about 30 minutes and then it's essentially cast in stone. Any edits by moderation appear as notated at the bottom of the post similar to FT.
2. A member's 'like totals', both received and given, are displayed in their public profile and, when clicked on, a list of the precise postings they have been liked for or liked is returned and any member can peruse those postings. Experience varies but like totals can be or become a measure of social 'popularity' and the basis for political activities.
2. Quite frankly I would HATE and totally be against like totals in a member's profile and I think others would as well. Heck, we have FTers who vote on TB elections who don't even want a I Voted icon. Which posts I've given likes to or gotten likes from is no one's business. And I know one current TB member who is super-hyper about privacy; I'm guessing that individual wouldn't like it either.
Agree.
I hope if the TalkBoard considers the addition of the feature, they'll carefully consider the value of maintaining 'helpful' votes as anonymous, much as the voting is here in this thread. Having created a lot of polls in vBulletin, I know they can identify voters or remain anonymous.
"Helpful" or "like", it's still a rating system.
The "anonymous" rating/reputation feature -- not so "anonymous" really -- was part of what contributed to the attacks (and pack attacks) which led up to the pulling of the first FT rating system open to all posting-enabled FTers.
The "anonymous" rating/reputation feature -- not so "anonymous" really -- was part of what contributed to the attacks (and pack attacks) which led up to the pulling of the first FT rating system open to all posting-enabled FTers.
Cheers.
Dec 19, 2014, 9:50 am
#260
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO
Programs: Lifetime (for now) Gold MM, HH Gold, Giving Tootsie Pops to UA employees, & a retired hockey goalie
Posts: 28,878
Sharon-
Thou art wise ^
Thou art wise ^
Dec 19, 2014, 10:15 am
#261
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Posts: 71,114
Dec 19, 2014, 11:26 am
#262
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On the road somewhere
Programs: DL, National, Marriott, Hilton
Posts: 4,304
I don't think a "helpful" button would be useful.
Maybe a "like" button like Facebook would be nice. You can only "like" a post, but it is not a numerical rating of the post. What would be different is that it doesn't display who liked it.
In theory it would say "4 users have liked this post"... instead of on facebook: "ABC, DEF, and 4 other people like this"
It would be that way to not copy the way that other sites have their system and make it be more about whether you like it or not versus a numerical rating (which could be negative).
Maybe a "like" button like Facebook would be nice. You can only "like" a post, but it is not a numerical rating of the post. What would be different is that it doesn't display who liked it.
In theory it would say "4 users have liked this post"... instead of on facebook: "ABC, DEF, and 4 other people like this"
It would be that way to not copy the way that other sites have their system and make it be more about whether you like it or not versus a numerical rating (which could be negative).
Dec 19, 2014, 11:38 am
#263
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Last edited by Kagehitokiri; Dec 19, 2014 at 2:53 pm
Dec 19, 2014, 11:44 am
#264
Join Date: Jan 2014
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I'm worried about like-chasing and similar effects. I'm also not a fan of things like this without a "dislike" option (one of my biggest beefs with Facebook's version) since this biases towards the positive...and frankly, there are plenty of times when a non-positive reaction is merited (I'm imagining some post announcing increased baggage fees ending up with a hundred likes).
As odd as it sounds, I suspect that being able to weigh in in such a manner would reduce some of the flak our company reps get when a program does something they don't like (they'd get a few complaints and a bunch of "dislikes" in lieu of some of the posts). Only having a "like" button of some sort seems inclined to get people to "turn up the heat" in opposition to the easy "liking".
As odd as it sounds, I suspect that being able to weigh in in such a manner would reduce some of the flak our company reps get when a program does something they don't like (they'd get a few complaints and a bunch of "dislikes" in lieu of some of the posts). Only having a "like" button of some sort seems inclined to get people to "turn up the heat" in opposition to the easy "liking".
Last edited by GrayAnderson; Dec 19, 2014 at 11:51 am
Dec 19, 2014, 11:55 am
#265
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I'm worried about like-chasing and similar effects. I'm also not a fan of things like this without a "dislike" option (one of my biggest beefs with Facebook's version) since this biases towards the positive...and frankly, there are plenty of times when a non-positive reaction is merited (I'm imagining some post announcing increased baggage fees ending up with a hundred likes).
As odd as it sounds, I suspect that being able to weigh in in such a manner would reduce some of the flak our company reps get when a program does something they don't like (they'd get a few complaints and a bunch of "dislikes" in lieu of some of the posts). Only having a "like" button of some sort seems inclined to get people to "turn up the heat" in opposition to the easy "liking".
As odd as it sounds, I suspect that being able to weigh in in such a manner would reduce some of the flak our company reps get when a program does something they don't like (they'd get a few complaints and a bunch of "dislikes" in lieu of some of the posts). Only having a "like" button of some sort seems inclined to get people to "turn up the heat" in opposition to the easy "liking".
Dec 19, 2014, 1:36 pm
#266
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
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I appreciate it when I get 'helpful' votes on TripAdvisor.
I like that I can see how many 'helpful' votes I have gotten.
I like that I can see how many 'helpful' votes I have gotten.
Dec 19, 2014, 2:16 pm
#267
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NYC, MSY
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+1
I think the place that it brings the most outsized value is when there are contradictory posts. It can be made clear to newbies or to those who don't know the answer, which of the contradictory posts is correct.
But in general, I just like positive feedback. I think it incentivizes quality content. If I receive 10 Likes for a post, it makes me more likely to take the time to contribute quality content in the future. It's just human nature that we like having our efforts appreciated. And appreciated in a way that doesn't sidetrack and clutter the thread.
I think the place that it brings the most outsized value is when there are contradictory posts. It can be made clear to newbies or to those who don't know the answer, which of the contradictory posts is correct.
But in general, I just like positive feedback. I think it incentivizes quality content. If I receive 10 Likes for a post, it makes me more likely to take the time to contribute quality content in the future. It's just human nature that we like having our efforts appreciated. And appreciated in a way that doesn't sidetrack and clutter the thread.
Dec 19, 2014, 2:31 pm
#268
Join Date: Jan 2008
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I don't believe it has any real value here.
This board is for questions and answers as well as information exchange not who likes who, which IMO, is how it will quickly evolve. If you want to be liked, use FB or become a TWIT. If you want to communicate information, use FT.
Additionally, if you have a "like" you should have a "dislike" as a counterbalance. While you're at it, how about an IBTL button.
I dislike a lot of the misinformation that's posted and would welcome a way to indicate it with a simple button, equivalent to a -1. Maybe you could label it BS.
You can accomplish the same thing with the use of a -1 in addition to the +1. Also, will the "like" or "dislike" count as a post? If not, the post count padders won't use it.
I probably got a little carried away but that's FT. If you don't like what I wrote, don't "like" it!
This board is for questions and answers as well as information exchange not who likes who, which IMO, is how it will quickly evolve. If you want to be liked, use FB or become a TWIT. If you want to communicate information, use FT.
Additionally, if you have a "like" you should have a "dislike" as a counterbalance. While you're at it, how about an IBTL button.
I dislike a lot of the misinformation that's posted and would welcome a way to indicate it with a simple button, equivalent to a -1. Maybe you could label it BS.
You can accomplish the same thing with the use of a -1 in addition to the +1. Also, will the "like" or "dislike" count as a post? If not, the post count padders won't use it.
I probably got a little carried away but that's FT. If you don't like what I wrote, don't "like" it!
Dec 19, 2014, 2:41 pm
#269
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I don't think a "helpful" button would be useful.
Maybe a "like" button like Facebook would be nice. You can only "like" a post, but it is not a numerical rating of the post. What would be different is that it doesn't display who liked it.
In theory it would say "4 users have liked this post"... instead of on facebook: "ABC, DEF, and 4 other people like this"
It would be that way to not copy the way that other sites have their system and make it be more about whether you like it or not versus a numerical rating (which could be negative).
Maybe a "like" button like Facebook would be nice. You can only "like" a post, but it is not a numerical rating of the post. What would be different is that it doesn't display who liked it.
In theory it would say "4 users have liked this post"... instead of on facebook: "ABC, DEF, and 4 other people like this"
It would be that way to not copy the way that other sites have their system and make it be more about whether you like it or not versus a numerical rating (which could be negative).
This seems set to be just what I said it would be: an opportunity for popularity contests and cliques to play games. Could be fun for a while but it's not going to add to my idea of an improved user experience but perhaps for its fleeting entertainment value and to see who is more popular than whom on FT.
Last edited by GUWonder; Dec 19, 2014 at 3:04 pm
Dec 19, 2014, 2:44 pm
#270
Join Date: Dec 2010
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I think it is a good idea as threads can quickly get clogged up with members compliments. A like button will potentially remove this so I am in favour.