View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Dec 21, 2014, 2:41 pm
#316
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: IAD/DCA
Posts: 31,797
camachinist - good news, thanks!
if there is an assumption that the majority of regular flyertalk users are regularly active on social media, im not sure that is necessarily the case, because there are probably a lot of regular flyertalk users who only joined flyertalk to keep up to date on details on status/awards/travel. also amount of time flyertalk has been around vs growth of social media.
i imagine there are many of us who do not have any interest in having our posts liked.
at least when people send friend requests, i just say i dont use social media. but i will never give likes, because i dont use social media, so some of those who do will apply that (statistical) criteria against me/others in a negative way.
if there is an assumption that the majority of regular flyertalk users are regularly active on social media, im not sure that is necessarily the case, because there are probably a lot of regular flyertalk users who only joined flyertalk to keep up to date on details on status/awards/travel. also amount of time flyertalk has been around vs growth of social media.
i imagine there are many of us who do not have any interest in having our posts liked.
at least when people send friend requests, i just say i dont use social media. but i will never give likes, because i dont use social media, so some of those who do will apply that (statistical) criteria against me/others in a negative way.
Last edited by Kagehitokiri; Dec 21, 2014 at 2:49 pm
Dec 21, 2014, 2:56 pm
#317
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO
Programs: Lifetime (for now) Gold MM, HH Gold, Giving Tootsie Pops to UA employees, & a retired hockey goalie
Posts: 28,878
Maybe not kipper's exact way of happening but if you have a system in place, F/t'ers will find a way to game it and what's that old saying-something about those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it?
Dec 21, 2014, 3:06 pm
#318
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVP, Hhonors Gold, National Executive, Identity Gold, MLife Gold
Posts: 2,687
However, to me the most useful aspect of having a "helpful" (far better term for FT than "like" IMO) button is so that I can later track the posts that I have found helpful. Sometimes you see a very useful piece of advice, which you don't need now but may need later. By flagging it as "helpful", you can then easily search it later from your own profile.
What you're looking for can easily be accomplished today, without any changes to FT, by using the Favorites capability in your browser.
Dec 21, 2014, 3:13 pm
#319
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,064
I don't normally get into this part of Flyertalk but punched the 'new posts' button, saw this thread and thought I'd share my experiences as a moderator of another forum (different content but on vBulletin) that has used the 'like' button for a couple years.
1. I haven't seen it cut down dramatically, or even a little, on '^^^^^ this!' type responses under full quotes of another post.
2. Our system shows the members who liked a post in a list at the bottom of the post and I've noted this to have become a method where often cliques exert political pressure on postings or threads, where one member of the clique posts up a missile at a fellow member and the others chime in with likes. A system which only shows number of likes and doesn't identify members visibly to other members could mitigate the politics of that somewhat, but not completely.
3. The use of the ignore list, in our software iteration and settings by the site owner, disallows a member from liking the post of another member they have on ignore but allows the ignored member to like their post. This arrangement has also been used to harass members, especially those who have like notifications turned on in their profile.
The subject matter is quite different than that of Flyertalk, and perhaps more potentially contentious or inflammatory but, if I had a button to take the like system off our forum today, I'd do it right now. I don't own the site so that won't happen.
Good luck in your choices.
1. I haven't seen it cut down dramatically, or even a little, on '^^^^^ this!' type responses under full quotes of another post.
2. Our system shows the members who liked a post in a list at the bottom of the post and I've noted this to have become a method where often cliques exert political pressure on postings or threads, where one member of the clique posts up a missile at a fellow member and the others chime in with likes. A system which only shows number of likes and doesn't identify members visibly to other members could mitigate the politics of that somewhat, but not completely.
3. The use of the ignore list, in our software iteration and settings by the site owner, disallows a member from liking the post of another member they have on ignore but allows the ignored member to like their post. This arrangement has also been used to harass members, especially those who have like notifications turned on in their profile.
The subject matter is quite different than that of Flyertalk, and perhaps more potentially contentious or inflammatory but, if I had a button to take the like system off our forum today, I'd do it right now. I don't own the site so that won't happen.
Good luck in your choices.
Dec 22, 2014, 2:50 am
#320
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
Programs: UA, LY, BA, AA
Posts: 13,167
No one gets brownie points for liking other peoples' posts. It's about the likes they get, which is out of their control, barring writing something good or helpful
I'm not trying to be dense or argumentative - I really think I must be missing something on the downside/potential for abuse
Dec 22, 2014, 3:34 am
#321
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,064
But I really don't see the gaming part here. The likes are meant to identify helpful posters. Unlike post padding which people can do to "earn" higher post counts, people can't control their own likes (that they receive).
No one gets brownie points for liking other peoples' posts. It's about the likes they get, which is out of their control, barring writing something good or helpful
I'm not trying to be dense or argumentative - I really think I must be missing something on the downside/potential for abuse
No one gets brownie points for liking other peoples' posts. It's about the likes they get, which is out of their control, barring writing something good or helpful
I'm not trying to be dense or argumentative - I really think I must be missing something on the downside/potential for abuse
Dec 22, 2014, 7:22 am
#322
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,114
1. Why do people post things? Why do they give back to the community? Because people like to know that they're helping people. The people who post helpful answers on FlyerTalk are doing it for the satisfaction of knowing that they are helping people and the reputation in the community that brings.
2. I think this proposal has the potential to substantially increase the amount of helpful content posted. It has the potential to motivate some of those knowledgeable travelers who have sat on the sidelines of FT to actually take the time to post helpful answers, because now instead of a nebulous "I think I'm helping people," people can actually easily get acknowledgment of their helpful posts and a concrete and specific "thanks" for that content.
3. I know for sure receiving "helpful" votes would motivate me to make sure I'm posting the best, most comprehensive answers I can and taking the time to post where I might otherwise be lazy and say, "I'll leave it for someone else to answer."
2. You're sure imbibing like with a lot of power it doesn't necessarily have & also downplaying the current responses FTers receive such as thanks/agree/+1/or something written out. Why you think like counts more than the others in terms of feedback is a bit perplexing.
3. Well if it takes a like/helpful to get you to post to help others & not doing so simply because you feel you can contribute, that's just disappointing.
Cheers.
Dec 22, 2014, 9:41 am
#323
Join Date: Feb 2004
Programs: AA 'kettle', Marriott Gold, ICH Gld, Hertz 5*
Posts: 5,258
Since the forum functions fine for discussion without likes or post votes, there must be a reason why this issue was grown from the original post where a member opined that such a system could cut down on extraneous posts which do nothing more than like a previous post.
I won't speak for IB and don't know the political matrix of FT; in the case of our forum, our site owner initiated the like system and share system (scripts for sharing posts with social media) to grow the forum's commercial aspects, both to increase his incremental revenues from ads as well as to maintain and grow the forum's ranking in its class, as it is currently at or near (depends on reporting period) the highest search engine ranking in its subject matter.
If this is totally member-driven, please disregard. In our case, the members didn't care at all but, well, given a new toy, it got played with, some using it to build and others to tear down. Human nature I guess.
I won't speak for IB and don't know the political matrix of FT; in the case of our forum, our site owner initiated the like system and share system (scripts for sharing posts with social media) to grow the forum's commercial aspects, both to increase his incremental revenues from ads as well as to maintain and grow the forum's ranking in its class, as it is currently at or near (depends on reporting period) the highest search engine ranking in its subject matter.
If this is totally member-driven, please disregard. In our case, the members didn't care at all but, well, given a new toy, it got played with, some using it to build and others to tear down. Human nature I guess.
Dec 22, 2014, 10:07 am
#324
Community Director Emerita
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Anywhere warm
Posts: 33,755
I am the one who went to IB. I asked because of the discussion in this forum. I wanted to see if such a function was possible. Otherwise, there was a lot of needless discussion. IB said yes, there was an existing plug in. If we wanted it, we could have it. I asked if there was any value to IB. I was told no, at least not in its present form. So this is FTers deciding what would be best for FT with no input by our owners. It is the exception when IB imposes anything on FT. We are genuinely a member driven board.
Carol
Community Director
Carol
Community Director
Dec 22, 2014, 10:34 am
#325
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Intermountain West
Programs: Too many to list
Posts: 12,089
I don't see a need, or benefit, for this 'button'.
Dec 22, 2014, 12:00 pm
#326
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,196
2. You're sure imbibing like with a lot of power it doesn't necessarily have & also downplaying the current responses FTers receive such as thanks/agree/+1/or something written out. Why you think like counts more than the others in terms of feedback is a bit perplexing.
I simply made a statement of fact of how it works in real life for me. I guess you can be disappointed with me all you want, but you know first-hand that I'm a pretty helpful poster, so I think I'm allowed to say that sometimes I don't feel like putting the energy into making a post. And if receiving some concrete appreciation for making a post would help me to overcome that, then how is that a disappointing or bad thing?
By the way, I don't think I'm alone in making that statement.
Dec 22, 2014, 3:25 pm
#327
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Since the forum functions fine for discussion without likes or post votes, there must be a reason why this issue was grown from the original post where a member opined that such a system could cut down on extraneous posts which do nothing more than like a previous post.
I won't speak for IB and don't know the political matrix of FT; in the case of our forum, our site owner initiated the like system and share system (scripts for sharing posts with social media) to grow the forum's commercial aspects, both to increase his incremental revenues from ads as well as to maintain and grow the forum's ranking in its class, as it is currently at or near (depends on reporting period) the highest search engine ranking in its subject matter.
If this is totally member-driven, please disregard. In our case, the members didn't care at all but, well, given a new toy, it got played with, some using it to build and others to tear down. Human nature I guess.
I won't speak for IB and don't know the political matrix of FT; in the case of our forum, our site owner initiated the like system and share system (scripts for sharing posts with social media) to grow the forum's commercial aspects, both to increase his incremental revenues from ads as well as to maintain and grow the forum's ranking in its class, as it is currently at or near (depends on reporting period) the highest search engine ranking in its subject matter.
If this is totally member-driven, please disregard. In our case, the members didn't care at all but, well, given a new toy, it got played with, some using it to build and others to tear down. Human nature I guess.
Speaking of human nature on FT, I have no doubt that this tool will turn out to be very "helpful" for exacerbating the challenges that already take place on FT, as between the following types of groups: company apologists vs non-apologists; DHS/TSA apologists vs non-DHS apologists; other Party A vs Party B.
Last edited by GUWonder; Dec 22, 2014 at 3:34 pm
Dec 22, 2014, 3:36 pm
#328
Community Director Emerita
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Anywhere warm
Posts: 33,755
I am the one who went to IB. I asked because of the discussion in this forum. I wanted to see if such a function was possible. Otherwise, there was a lot of needless discussion. IB said yes, there was an existing plug in. If we wanted it, we could have it. I asked if there was any value to IB. I was told no, at least not in its present form. So this is FTers deciding what would be best for FT with no input by our owners. It is the exception when IB imposes anything on FT. We are genuinely a member driven board.
Carol
Community Director
Carol
Community Director
Dec 22, 2014, 4:28 pm
#329
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: IAD/DCA
Posts: 31,797
jackal, what do you think of having a button, but posters not have counts?
Dec 22, 2014, 4:44 pm
#330
Join Date: Feb 2004
Programs: AA 'kettle', Marriott Gold, ICH Gld, Hertz 5*
Posts: 5,258
Thanks for the clarification. I did note the like counter had gone away this morning so figured there was a back-end change.
I would vote for members to not have a counter, at least not a publicly visible one which could be drilled down to individual posts, but my understanding is that change is a hack rather than something canned, so some non-standard coding is required. I base that on interactions at vB.org because I was trying to sell our site owner on doing away with the counters!
I would vote for members to not have a counter, at least not a publicly visible one which could be drilled down to individual posts, but my understanding is that change is a hack rather than something canned, so some non-standard coding is required. I base that on interactions at vB.org because I was trying to sell our site owner on doing away with the counters!