WN Asks Pax to Stop Recording BWI Ejection
Sep 29, 2017, 3:06 pm
#241
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
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ABC News and [@airlinewriter] AP Aviation writer David Koenig are "major news outlets."
It doesn't even matter whether Southwest lied about making the offer.
It matters that they require no advance notice for boarding medical/emotional service animals. Insane. Half the following day's flights could have dogs and nothing in WNs system could inform burdened passengers.
Sep 29, 2017, 3:51 pm
#242
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Totally agreed as someone with food allergies. She upped the ante by saying that her supposed allergies were too severe to fly and the dogs would have to be removed, had no documentation of her allergy whatoever and according to some reports, asked the crew for an EpiPen:
The fact that this woman asked the crew for an epinephrine autoinjector tells me a few things:
I can avoid eating on a plane or bring my own food/order a special meal, and I can wipe down a tray table with an alcohol based wipe to sanitize it.
Let's even assume the allergy is actually real and severe enough and that the passenger was woefully uneducated on what lifesaving medication does (and not carrying her own). Then she still shouldn't have been allowed to fly, because at the point at which animals being in the cabin is an issue and she is unable to present a doctor's note saying that it would be fine, it shouldn't be allowed. Not to mention the issue that de-boarding several passengers with service dogs would potentially pose an issue on the relevant laws with disabilities.
(By the way, anyone in the US on FT with severe allergies - I highly recommend Auvi-Q over EpiPen. $0 out of pocket expense for it if you have commercial insurance in the US, much smaller than EpiPen and it talks through the administration, which might be helpful if family/friend/a stranger has to administer it).
Food allergies generally don't pose a problem if someone else is eating them. The exceptions being cross contamination of cooking surfaces/utensils, or being at a place where it is cooked for certain foods (if you're allergic to seafood, you shouldn't go to a hibachi grill - beyond cross contamination, the smell of it cooking in front of you can be severe enough). Cross contamination or preparation doesn't apply on planes (although when I do fly international, I notify the crew of my allergy just to be safe), and I have no problem with someone eating an egg mcmuffin or a slice of pecan pie in the seat next to me, or even a salad with egg on it.
The other exception would be peanuts as peanut dust can go airborne and cause issues (which is why Texas Roadhouse posts a huge warning that those with peanut allergies should not enter, since they serve buckets of them to everyone, and why some families with severe food allergies will avoid Delta [peanuts are one of the free snack options, at least in the past.])
However, if you have such a severe environmental allergy that a service animal being in another seat on the plane is going to be a problem, then you aren't fit to fly, period.
I have gone without regular meals on international flights when my special meals didn't make it(vegan ticks the boxes to eliminate my allergies except pecans, which generally aren't in airplane meals), although the crew is usually willing to throw bagged/boxed snacks with ingredient lists at me in those cases. But in the worst case scenario, I can control my allergy by simply not eating on the plane.
The fact that this woman asked the crew for an epinephrine autoinjector tells me a few things:
- If she really had severe food allergies, she should be carrying her own. EpiPens are a prescription drug, you can't just hand them out like candy.
- You don't administer an EpiPen to prevent an allergic reaction from occurring. The only time you would use epinephrine in regards to an allergy is if someone is suffering severe anaphylaxis/going into anaphylactic shock.
- Even administering an EpiPen does not "solve" the problem of an allergic reaction. Epinephrine promotes opening of the airways/blood vessels so when your throat is swelling shut from a severe allergic reaction, you can continue breathing. It addresses the most severe and pressing symptom (not being able to breathe) on a temporary basis. EpiPens come in two packs for a reason, many patients have to administer a second dose before getting medical attention.
- Once you get to a hospital or ER, they basically administer antihistamines via IV and inject you with normal (non-autoinjector) shots of epinephrine until the allergic reaction subsides. This can take several hours.
I can avoid eating on a plane or bring my own food/order a special meal, and I can wipe down a tray table with an alcohol based wipe to sanitize it.
Let's even assume the allergy is actually real and severe enough and that the passenger was woefully uneducated on what lifesaving medication does (and not carrying her own). Then she still shouldn't have been allowed to fly, because at the point at which animals being in the cabin is an issue and she is unable to present a doctor's note saying that it would be fine, it shouldn't be allowed. Not to mention the issue that de-boarding several passengers with service dogs would potentially pose an issue on the relevant laws with disabilities.
(By the way, anyone in the US on FT with severe allergies - I highly recommend Auvi-Q over EpiPen. $0 out of pocket expense for it if you have commercial insurance in the US, much smaller than EpiPen and it talks through the administration, which might be helpful if family/friend/a stranger has to administer it).
Food allergies generally don't pose a problem if someone else is eating them. The exceptions being cross contamination of cooking surfaces/utensils, or being at a place where it is cooked for certain foods (if you're allergic to seafood, you shouldn't go to a hibachi grill - beyond cross contamination, the smell of it cooking in front of you can be severe enough). Cross contamination or preparation doesn't apply on planes (although when I do fly international, I notify the crew of my allergy just to be safe), and I have no problem with someone eating an egg mcmuffin or a slice of pecan pie in the seat next to me, or even a salad with egg on it.
The other exception would be peanuts as peanut dust can go airborne and cause issues (which is why Texas Roadhouse posts a huge warning that those with peanut allergies should not enter, since they serve buckets of them to everyone, and why some families with severe food allergies will avoid Delta [peanuts are one of the free snack options, at least in the past.])
However, if you have such a severe environmental allergy that a service animal being in another seat on the plane is going to be a problem, then you aren't fit to fly, period.
I have gone without regular meals on international flights when my special meals didn't make it(vegan ticks the boxes to eliminate my allergies except pecans, which generally aren't in airplane meals), although the crew is usually willing to throw bagged/boxed snacks with ingredient lists at me in those cases. But in the worst case scenario, I can control my allergy by simply not eating on the plane.
Sep 29, 2017, 3:58 pm
#243
Join Date: May 2005
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That aside, I'm not sure my "weak position" is any weaker than you stating categorically that they did nothing to resolve the situation. At least I didn't try to pass my opinion as fact.
Sep 29, 2017, 6:20 pm
#244
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,323
I'm sure Southwest attempted to notify everyone, especially those who repeatedly proclaim their customer skills to be "piss-poor."
Sep 29, 2017, 6:43 pm
#245
Join Date: Oct 2001
Programs: LTP, PP
Posts: 8,700
2 last thoughts:
An honored saying in aviation, "better to be down on the ground here wishing you were up in the sky then up in the sky wishing you were down on the ground"
If WN had guts, and why not given there are 4 or less choices to fly today, calculate monetary the damages from the delay and mis-connects this caused and sue the nudnik to make a point even if they don't collect a cent. I think the public would stand for it and honestly, they have little choice...
An honored saying in aviation, "better to be down on the ground here wishing you were up in the sky then up in the sky wishing you were down on the ground"
If WN had guts, and why not given there are 4 or less choices to fly today, calculate monetary the damages from the delay and mis-connects this caused and sue the nudnik to make a point even if they don't collect a cent. I think the public would stand for it and honestly, they have little choice...
Sep 29, 2017, 9:34 pm
#246
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 297
So somebody with a service dog can't be asked any questions but a person with an allergy has to have medical documentation in advance? Does that make sense to anyone?
The plane should be cleared before a passenger is forcibly removed. I know it's going to create a lot of inconvenience but look at the crap that happens now. Once the person sees the plane is being cleared and they are not going to go anywhere anyway, pretty obviously they are also going to leave.
The plane should be cleared before a passenger is forcibly removed. I know it's going to create a lot of inconvenience but look at the crap that happens now. Once the person sees the plane is being cleared and they are not going to go anywhere anyway, pretty obviously they are also going to leave.
Sep 29, 2017, 10:12 pm
#247
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The plane should be cleared before a passenger is forcibly removed. I know it's going to create a lot of inconvenience but look at the crap that happens now. Once the person sees the plane is being cleared and they are not going to go anywhere anyway, pretty obviously they are also going to leave.
Sep 29, 2017, 10:33 pm
#248
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
See this "guidance" from DOT;
https://www.transportation.gov/sites...rix.6-28-6.pdf
Here are some quotes (emphasis added);
3. Request documentation for service animals other than emotional support animals: The law allows airline personnel to ask for documentation as a means of verifying that the animal is a service animal, but DOT urges carriers not to require documentation as a condition for permitting an individual to travel with his or her service animal in the cabin unless a passenger's verbal assurance is not credible.
4.Require documentation for emotional support animals: With respect to an animal used for emotional support (which need not have specific training for that function), airline personnel may require current documentation (i.e.,not more than one year old) on letterhead from a mental health professional stating (1) that the passenger has a mental health-related disability; (2) that having the animal accompany the passenger is necessary to the passenger's mental health or treatment or to assist the passenger (with his or her disability); and (3) that the individual providing the assessment of the passenger is a licensed mental health professional and the passenger is under his or her professional care. Airline personnel may require this documentation as a condition of permitting the animal to accompany the passenger in the cabin. The purpose of this provision is to prevent abuse by passengers that do not have a medical need for an emotional support animal and to ensure that passengers who have a legitimate need for emotional support animals are permitted to travel with their service animals on the aircraft. Airlines are not permitted to require the documentation to specify the type of mental health disability, e.g., panic attacks.
If you Google "Service Animals" you will get on the first page several "Registries" for Service and Support Animals. No registration is really required. These tend to be groups to provide documentation of ESA's including unneeded accessories like vests.
Last edited by rsteinmetz70112; Sep 29, 2017 at 10:57 pm
Sep 29, 2017, 10:38 pm
#249
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Under the ACAA, emotional support animals are recognized as service animals. However, DOT regulations permit carriers to request verbal assurances and documentation that the service animal is in fact a service animal. Further information can be found here:
https://www.transportation.gov/sites...rix.6-28-6.pdf
DOT suggests five steps to determine whether an animal is a service animal or pet – (1) obtain credible verbal assurance; (2) look for physical indicators on the animal (e.g., harnesses, vests); (3) request documentation for service animals if passenger’s verbal assurance is not credible; (4) request documentation for emotional support and psychiatric service animals; and (5) observe behavior of animal.
To obtain credible verbal assurances carriers are permitted to ask the following: Is this your pet? What tasks or functions does your animal perform for you?" “What has it been trained to do for you?” “Would you describe how the animal performs this task (or function) for you?” Carriers cannot ask about the person’s disability.
If a passenger seeks to travel with an animal that is used as an emotional support or psychiatric service animal, carriers are not required to accept the animal for transportation in the cabin unless the passenger provides you current documentation (i.e., no older than one year from the date of the passenger's scheduled initial flight) on the letterhead of a licensed mental health professional (e.g., psychiatrist, psychologist, licensed clinical social worker including a medical doctor specifically treating the passenger's mental or emotional disability) stating the following: (1) The passenger has a mental or emotional disability recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders--Fourth Edition (DSM IV); (2) The passenger needs the emotional support or psychiatric service animal as an accommodation for air travel and/or for activity at the passenger's destination; (3) The individual providing the assessment is a licensed mental health professional, and the passenger is under his or her professional care; and (4) The date and type of the mental health professional's license and the state or other jurisdiction
Sep 29, 2017, 11:13 pm
#250
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
Improperly identifying an "ESA" as a "Service Animal", may have consequences, especially since ADA does not recognize "ESAs", for example ESAs may be barred for from food service establishments or other venues while "Service Animals", as defined by ADA may not be.
Certain types of ESAs may not be carried on Aircraft including rodents, snakes or spiders which under the Fair Housing Act must be accommodated.
Sep 30, 2017, 5:27 pm
#252
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,525
Do you really think the flight crew was informed by this woman that she had a life-threatening allergy and they immediately called the cops? Please!
Sep 30, 2017, 8:02 pm
#254
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Mid-MO
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Posts: 66
I travel with a service animal. A real one, with real training.
Under the law, I am not required to notify the airline ahead of time. I dont n have to present any paperwork,
The person in question here was in the wrong. Any real allergy sufferer travels with an Epi-pen and Benadry.
Under the law, I am not required to notify the airline ahead of time. I dont n have to present any paperwork,
The person in question here was in the wrong. Any real allergy sufferer travels with an Epi-pen and Benadry.
Sep 30, 2017, 9:31 pm
#255
Join Date: Feb 2007
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There is only one way to crack down on this BS of a "comfort animal".
The airlines need to fund enforcement of the laws prohibiting "mental health" licensees from diagnosing and prescribing without actually meeting and diagnosing the patient. That is illegal in all US jurisdictions.
This is real easy for investigators to prove.
The animal insult on commercial aircraft would almost cease if licensed persons were threatened.
The airlines need to fund enforcement of the laws prohibiting "mental health" licensees from diagnosing and prescribing without actually meeting and diagnosing the patient. That is illegal in all US jurisdictions.
This is real easy for investigators to prove.
The animal insult on commercial aircraft would almost cease if licensed persons were threatened.