Pre-boarders should be forced to sit in the back of the plane
Jan 4, 2017, 5:22 am
#226
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,042
Resistance to a policy that asks pre-boarders to remain seated till others deplane seems to be motivated by the feeling that people with disabilities suffer enough and are entitled to be accommodated more than equally to compensate for it. It wouldn't be viable to enforce such a policy, but announcing it would help dissuade some who pre-board just to get a better choice of seats. Some handicapped people also believe that nobody else should use the handicapped stalls in the restrooms when there is no handicapped person present, just in case a handicapped person might show up and have to wait a minute. The ADA law is supposed to require reasonable accommodation to provide equal access, not better access.
Jan 4, 2017, 6:54 am
#227
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,461
We were on SW this past week. We planned to wait to exit after the others left due to my mother's need for a wheelchair (Note: We did not follow Kevin's "advice" and move all the way to the back so he could sit up front LOL!) The man in the window seat was having none of that and nearly had a nervous breakdown that we wouldn't hurry up and get off LOL!
Of course we got off and no one was behind us... We were not near as big a delay as the people with the overstuffed luggage in the overhead bins! (the man who was rushing us off the plane had two giant carry ons and of course was holding the entire plane up to get his stuff together... I turned and looked
Probably a friend of some of you on here!)
Of course we got off and no one was behind us... We were not near as big a delay as the people with the overstuffed luggage in the overhead bins! (the man who was rushing us off the plane had two giant carry ons and of course was holding the entire plane up to get his stuff together... I turned and looked
Probably a friend of some of you on here!)
Jan 4, 2017, 7:23 am
#228
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chicagoland, IL, USA
Programs: WN CP, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,193
Isn't the term "accommodation" sort of ambiguous? To say the least?
I am thinking maybe I am claustrophobic and must sit in a bulkhead seat from now on. And I have a fear of standing near strangers and have to be able to get off the plane first, with my support python in tow.
Where does this stuff end?
I am thinking maybe I am claustrophobic and must sit in a bulkhead seat from now on. And I have a fear of standing near strangers and have to be able to get off the plane first, with my support python in tow.
Where does this stuff end?
Jan 4, 2017, 7:31 am
#229
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 252
Resistance to a policy that asks pre-boarders to remain seated till others deplane seems to be motivated by the feeling that people with disabilities suffer enough and are entitled to be accommodated more than equally to compensate for it. It wouldn't be viable to enforce such a policy, but announcing it would help dissuade some who pre-board just to get a better choice of seats. Some handicapped people also believe that nobody else should use the handicapped stalls in the restrooms when there is no handicapped person present, just in case a handicapped person might show up and have to wait a minute. The ADA law is supposed to require reasonable accommodation to provide equal access, not better access.
Jan 4, 2017, 7:34 am
#230
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Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 252
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Jan 4, 2017, 7:48 am
#232
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hold it down for The Bay, reppin' Oakland
Programs: Lowly UA silver, Marriott Ambassador/Tit4Lyf, IHG Plat
Posts: 1,763
The second principle is the same reason a business cannot require certain people to drink from separate water fountains or sit in the back of the bus. Got it?
Last edited by lexdevil; Jan 4, 2017 at 8:26 am
Jan 4, 2017, 8:48 am
#233
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
Sidenote, I am a CASp. Although certification doesn't directly apply to boarding and airlines, the principles are generally the same.
Jan 4, 2017, 8:53 am
#234
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hold it down for The Bay, reppin' Oakland
Programs: Lowly UA silver, Marriott Ambassador/Tit4Lyf, IHG Plat
Posts: 1,763
That is not the basis for early boarding. There is no requirement for disabled to board first nor is there a requirement to get appropriate seating.
Sidenote, I am a CASp. Although certification doesn't directly apply to boarding and airlines, the principles are generally the same.
Sidenote, I am a CASp. Although certification doesn't directly apply to boarding and airlines, the principles are generally the same.
This post, from much earlier in this thread, does provide documentation that in the case of airlines without seat assignments, pre-boarding is legally required.
It links to 14 CFR Part 382: Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Disability in Air Travel, which is a fascinating read for those who are curious about the legal obligations of air carriers toward disabled passengers.
Further reading in the linked government doc makes it pretty clear that airlines are required to provide "appropriate seating"/seating accommodations to disabled passengers.
Some of the fascinating stuff includes:
They can't discriminate (duh)
§ 382.7 General prohibition of
discrimination.
(a) A carrier shall not, directly or through
contractual, licensing, or other arrangements:
(1) Discriminate against any otherwise
qualified individual with a disability, by
reason of such disability, in the provision of
air transportation;
(2) Require a person with a disability to
accept special services (including, but not
limited to, preboarding) not requested by the
passenger;
(3) Exclude a qualified individual with a
disability from or deny the person the benefit
of any air transportation or related services
that are available to other persons, even if
there are separate or different services
available for persons with a disability except
when specifically permitted by another
section of this part; or,
(4) Take any action adverse to an
individual because of the individual’s
assertion, on his or her own behalf or through
or behalf of others, of rights protected by this
part or the Air Carrier Access Act.
discrimination.
(a) A carrier shall not, directly or through
contractual, licensing, or other arrangements:
(1) Discriminate against any otherwise
qualified individual with a disability, by
reason of such disability, in the provision of
air transportation;
(2) Require a person with a disability to
accept special services (including, but not
limited to, preboarding) not requested by the
passenger;
(3) Exclude a qualified individual with a
disability from or deny the person the benefit
of any air transportation or related services
that are available to other persons, even if
there are separate or different services
available for persons with a disability except
when specifically permitted by another
section of this part; or,
(4) Take any action adverse to an
individual because of the individual’s
assertion, on his or her own behalf or through
or behalf of others, of rights protected by this
part or the Air Carrier Access Act.
(1)(i) Aircraft with 30 or more passenger
seats on which passenger aisle seats have
armrests shall have movable aisle armrests on
at least one-half of passenger aisle seats.
seats on which passenger aisle seats have
armrests shall have movable aisle armrests on
at least one-half of passenger aisle seats.
(iii) For aircraft equipped with movable
aisle armrests as required by this paragraph,
carriers shall configure cabins, or establish
administrative systems, to ensure that
individuals with mobility impairments or
other persons with disabilities can readily
obtain seating in rows with movable aisle
armrests.
aisle armrests as required by this paragraph,
carriers shall configure cabins, or establish
administrative systems, to ensure that
individuals with mobility impairments or
other persons with disabilities can readily
obtain seating in rows with movable aisle
armrests.
(a) On request of an individual who selfidentifies
to a carrier as having a disability
specified in this paragraph, the carrier shall
provide the following seating accommodations, subject to the provisions of
this section:
(1) For a passenger who uses an aisle chair
to access the aircraft and who cannot readily
transfer over a fixed aisle armrest, the carrier
shall provide a seat in a row with a movable
aisle armrest.
(2) The carrier shall provide a seat next to a
passenger traveling with a disability for a
person assisting the individual in the
following circumstances:
(i) When an individual with a disability is
traveling with a personal care attendant who
will be performing a function for the
individual during the flight that airline
personnel are not required to perform (e.g.,
assistance with eating);
(ii) When an individual with a vision
impairment is traveling with a reader/assistant
who will be performing functions for the
individual during the flight; or
(iii) When an individual with a hearing
impairment is traveling with an interpreter
who will be performing functions for the
individual during the flight.
(3) For an individual traveling with a
service animal, the carrier shall provide, as
the individual requests, either a bulkhead seat
or a seat other than a bulkhead seat.
(4) For a person with a fused or
immobilized leg, the carrier shall provide a
bulkhead seat or other seat that provides
greater legroom than other seats, on the side
of an aisle that better accommodates the
individual’s disability.
to a carrier as having a disability
specified in this paragraph, the carrier shall
provide the following seating accommodations, subject to the provisions of
this section:
(1) For a passenger who uses an aisle chair
to access the aircraft and who cannot readily
transfer over a fixed aisle armrest, the carrier
shall provide a seat in a row with a movable
aisle armrest.
(2) The carrier shall provide a seat next to a
passenger traveling with a disability for a
person assisting the individual in the
following circumstances:
(i) When an individual with a disability is
traveling with a personal care attendant who
will be performing a function for the
individual during the flight that airline
personnel are not required to perform (e.g.,
assistance with eating);
(ii) When an individual with a vision
impairment is traveling with a reader/assistant
who will be performing functions for the
individual during the flight; or
(iii) When an individual with a hearing
impairment is traveling with an interpreter
who will be performing functions for the
individual during the flight.
(3) For an individual traveling with a
service animal, the carrier shall provide, as
the individual requests, either a bulkhead seat
or a seat other than a bulkhead seat.
(4) For a person with a fused or
immobilized leg, the carrier shall provide a
bulkhead seat or other seat that provides
greater legroom than other seats, on the side
of an aisle that better accommodates the
individual’s disability.
(a) Carriers shall not exclude any qualified
individual with a disability from any seat in
an exit row or other location or require that a
qualified individual with a disability sit in any
particular seat, on the basis of disability,
except in order to comply with the
requirements of an FAA safety regulation or
as provided in this section.
individual with a disability from any seat in
an exit row or other location or require that a
qualified individual with a disability sit in any
particular seat, on the basis of disability,
except in order to comply with the
requirements of an FAA safety regulation or
as provided in this section.
(b) A carrier that provides advance seat
assignments shall comply with the
requirements of paragraph (a) of this section
by any of the following methods:
(1) The carrier may “block” an adequate
number of the seats used to provide the
seating accommodations required by this
section.
(i) The carrier shall not assign these seats to
passengers not needing seating
accommodations provided under this
paragraph until 24 hours before the scheduled
departure of the flight.
(ii) At any time up until 24 hours before the
scheduled departure of the flight, the carrier
shall assign a seat meeting the requirements
of this section to an individual who requests
it.
(2) The carrier may designate an adequate
number of the seats used to provide seating
accommodations required by this section as
“priority seats” for individuals with
disabilities.
(i) The carrier shall provide notice that all
passengers assigned these seats (other than
passengers with disabilities listed in
paragraph (a) of this section) are subject to
being reassigned to another seat if necessary
to provide a seating accommodation required
by this section. The carrier may provide this
notice through its computer reservation
system, verbal information provided by
reservation personnel, ticket notices, gate
announcements, counter signs, seat cards or
notices, frequent-flier literature, or other
appropriate means.
(ii) The carrier shall assign a seat meeting
the requirements of this section to an
individual who requests the accommodation
and checks in at least one hour before the
scheduled departure of the flight. If all
designated priority seats that would
accommodate the individual have been
assigned to other passengers, the carrier shall
reassign the seats of the other passengers as
needed to provide the requested
accommodation.
assignments shall comply with the
requirements of paragraph (a) of this section
by any of the following methods:
(1) The carrier may “block” an adequate
number of the seats used to provide the
seating accommodations required by this
section.
(i) The carrier shall not assign these seats to
passengers not needing seating
accommodations provided under this
paragraph until 24 hours before the scheduled
departure of the flight.
(ii) At any time up until 24 hours before the
scheduled departure of the flight, the carrier
shall assign a seat meeting the requirements
of this section to an individual who requests
it.
(2) The carrier may designate an adequate
number of the seats used to provide seating
accommodations required by this section as
“priority seats” for individuals with
disabilities.
(i) The carrier shall provide notice that all
passengers assigned these seats (other than
passengers with disabilities listed in
paragraph (a) of this section) are subject to
being reassigned to another seat if necessary
to provide a seating accommodation required
by this section. The carrier may provide this
notice through its computer reservation
system, verbal information provided by
reservation personnel, ticket notices, gate
announcements, counter signs, seat cards or
notices, frequent-flier literature, or other
appropriate means.
(ii) The carrier shall assign a seat meeting
the requirements of this section to an
individual who requests the accommodation
and checks in at least one hour before the
scheduled departure of the flight. If all
designated priority seats that would
accommodate the individual have been
assigned to other passengers, the carrier shall
reassign the seats of the other passengers as
needed to provide the requested
accommodation.
(d) A carrier that does not provide advance
seat assignments shall provide seating
accommodations for persons described in
paragraphs (a) and (c) of this section by
allowing them to board the aircraft before
other passengers, including other “preboarded”
passengers, so that the individuals
needing seating accommodations can select
seats that best meet their needs if they have
taken advantage of the opportunity to preboard.
(e) A carrier may comply with the
requirements of this section through an
alternative method not specified in paragraphs
(b) through (d) of this section. A carrier
wishing to do so shall obtain the written
concurrence of the Department of
Transportation (Office of the Secretary)
before implementing the alternative method.
seat assignments shall provide seating
accommodations for persons described in
paragraphs (a) and (c) of this section by
allowing them to board the aircraft before
other passengers, including other “preboarded”
passengers, so that the individuals
needing seating accommodations can select
seats that best meet their needs if they have
taken advantage of the opportunity to preboard.
(e) A carrier may comply with the
requirements of this section through an
alternative method not specified in paragraphs
(b) through (d) of this section. A carrier
wishing to do so shall obtain the written
concurrence of the Department of
Transportation (Office of the Secretary)
before implementing the alternative method.
(c) Carriers shall not restrict the movements
of persons with a disability in terminals or
require them to remain in a holding area or
other location in order to be provided
transportation, to receive assistance, or for
other purposes, or otherwise mandate separate
treatment for persons with a disability, except
as permitted or required in this part.
of persons with a disability in terminals or
require them to remain in a holding area or
other location in order to be provided
transportation, to receive assistance, or for
other purposes, or otherwise mandate separate
treatment for persons with a disability, except
as permitted or required in this part.
Last edited by lexdevil; Jan 4, 2017 at 9:46 am
Jan 4, 2017, 9:03 am
#235
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
The passenger determines if add'l time/assistance is required, not the airline.
Jan 4, 2017, 9:12 am
#236
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chicagoland, IL, USA
Programs: WN CP, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,193
WaPo article on the subject of assistance animals. No idea if these people know what they are talking about.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...at-behind-you/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...at-behind-you/
Jan 4, 2017, 9:20 am
#237
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
This post, from much earlier in this thread, does provide documentation that in the case of airlines without seat assignments, pre-boarding is legally required.
It links to 14 CFR Part 382: Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Disability in Air Travel, which is a fascinating read for those who are curious about the legal obligations of air carriers toward disabled passengers.
It links to 14 CFR Part 382: Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Disability in Air Travel, which is a fascinating read for those who are curious about the legal obligations of air carriers toward disabled passengers.
So, disabled are allowed to pre-board to select seats (when seats are not reserved in advanced).However, the primary issue is whether or not disabled that pre-board, should deplane last. I think disabled that pre-board should deplane last. After all, if this was discussed on the UA forum (where seat assignment is a non-issue), basis of early boarding is to provide add'l time/assistance. And if a passenger needs add'l time/assistance to board, said passenger would also need add'l time/assistance to deplane.
Jan 4, 2017, 9:28 am
#238
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,461
Thanks, very interesting indeed...air travel is not part of CASp certification So, disabled are allowed to pre-board to select seats (when seats are not reserved in advanced).
However, the primary issue is whether or not disabled that pre-board, should deplane last. I think disabled that pre-board should deplane last. After all, if this was discussed on the UA forum (where seat assignment is a non-issue), basis of early boarding is to provide add'l time/assistance. And if a passenger needs add'l time/assistance to board, said passenger would also need add'l time/assistance to deplane.
So, disabled are allowed to pre-board to select seats (when seats are not reserved in advanced).However, the primary issue is whether or not disabled that pre-board, should deplane last. I think disabled that pre-board should deplane last. After all, if this was discussed on the UA forum (where seat assignment is a non-issue), basis of early boarding is to provide add'l time/assistance. And if a passenger needs add'l time/assistance to board, said passenger would also need add'l time/assistance to deplane.
Jan 4, 2017, 9:31 am
#239
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
So you are willing to sit in your window seat and wait? Because there's no requirement that person took the window. I always put my mother in the aisle so she can go to the restroom without causing problems. I don't think she should have to move to another row because your "new" requirement now creates a delay for you.
Not sure what you're referring to....Why would I wait in my window seat?
I didn't suggest your mother move to another row.
Jan 4, 2017, 10:01 am
#240
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 252
They're basically saying that if a disabled person is occupying the aisle seat (which they normally are), and an able bodied person is in the window next to them, the able bodied person is unable to deplane because the disabled person will be sitting patiently in the aisle seat until it is their time to leave.
And it's really very simple. The disabled person can stand up (just as they would if they had to go to the bathroom or if they had to let the person in the aisle go to the bathroom), allow the aisle person to get out, and then sit back down.
Not difficult.