Pre-boarders should be forced to sit in the back of the plane
Oct 13, 2016, 12:21 pm
#136
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
Most people are simply frustrated by the large number of people who pre-board, just to get a better seat. If you fly Southwest much you will often see entire family groups pre-board. Certainly many people take advantage of the opportunity to scam the system,. All you need to do is watch any airline who has assigned seating and count the number of pre-boarders, it is dramatically fewer than Southwest.
Unfortunately the rules don't allow the airline much leeway in inquiring into the nature of the disability nor requiring advance notice from passengers. If Southwest questioned anyone desiring pre-board you would likely see the aggrieved passenger on the internet complaining about Southwest's heartlessness. From past experience in those stories most of the people involved are simply shameless.
Unfortunately the rules don't allow the airline much leeway in inquiring into the nature of the disability nor requiring advance notice from passengers. If Southwest questioned anyone desiring pre-board you would likely see the aggrieved passenger on the internet complaining about Southwest's heartlessness. From past experience in those stories most of the people involved are simply shameless.
Oct 13, 2016, 9:30 pm
#138
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,246
Most people are simply frustrated by the large number of people who pre-board, just to get a better seat. If you fly Southwest much you will often see entire family groups pre-board. Certainly many people take advantage of the opportunity to scam the system,. All you need to do is watch any airline who has assigned seating and count the number of pre-boarders, it is dramatically fewer than Southwest.
Unfortunately the rules don't allow the airline much leeway in inquiring into the nature of the disability nor requiring advance notice from passengers. If Southwest questioned anyone desiring pre-board you would likely see the aggrieved passenger on the internet complaining about Southwest's heartlessness. From past experience in those stories most of the people involved are simply shameless.
Unfortunately the rules don't allow the airline much leeway in inquiring into the nature of the disability nor requiring advance notice from passengers. If Southwest questioned anyone desiring pre-board you would likely see the aggrieved passenger on the internet complaining about Southwest's heartlessness. From past experience in those stories most of the people involved are simply shameless.
On the other hand, I do have a problem with people who believe disabled people should not be afforded the same rights as able bodied passengers. Such as "make them sit in the back" or "make them sit in a middle seat" or "make them get off last". That last one though punishes not just the preboarder but anyone else stuck in their row so I don't think they are thinking that one through. Not sure why I would expect them to but there you go.
Oct 14, 2016, 12:10 am
#139
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
Let me try give an example.
I had a long time friend who passed away last year. He was an accomplished professional, martial artist and a great father to two wonderful daughters. In his 30's he contracted throat cancer. It was treated partially with radiation. In his early 60's he contracted flesh eating bacteria, probably as a result of the damage his earlier radiation treatment did to his immune system. He lost part of one leg below the knee. During the treatment of his infection is was discovered he had pancreatic cancer.
In his final months he traveled extensively to make visits to family and friends and to be with his family at their favorite places. I made a couple of those trips with him. He never asked for special treatment and boarded flights as a typical passenger, because he was able to get around as well as anyone else.
During this time I also observed a young man in his early 30's with a prosthesis similar to my friends in a Southwest gate. He was sitting in a wheelchair. I sat in a nearby seat y coincidence waiting for a GA. She eventually arrived and I was asked if I was pre-boarding, I guess I must look old. I said no. The GA asked him and he said he was waiting to pre-board. The odd thing was that despite the prosthesis he seemed perfectly able to get around and in fact was wearing a backpack with a tennis racquet on it. I later observed him in the baggage claim with a girl and carrying his checked baggage.
It is hard for me to reconcile the behavior of that strong young man with the behavior of my dying friend.
I had a long time friend who passed away last year. He was an accomplished professional, martial artist and a great father to two wonderful daughters. In his 30's he contracted throat cancer. It was treated partially with radiation. In his early 60's he contracted flesh eating bacteria, probably as a result of the damage his earlier radiation treatment did to his immune system. He lost part of one leg below the knee. During the treatment of his infection is was discovered he had pancreatic cancer.
In his final months he traveled extensively to make visits to family and friends and to be with his family at their favorite places. I made a couple of those trips with him. He never asked for special treatment and boarded flights as a typical passenger, because he was able to get around as well as anyone else.
During this time I also observed a young man in his early 30's with a prosthesis similar to my friends in a Southwest gate. He was sitting in a wheelchair. I sat in a nearby seat y coincidence waiting for a GA. She eventually arrived and I was asked if I was pre-boarding, I guess I must look old. I said no. The GA asked him and he said he was waiting to pre-board. The odd thing was that despite the prosthesis he seemed perfectly able to get around and in fact was wearing a backpack with a tennis racquet on it. I later observed him in the baggage claim with a girl and carrying his checked baggage.
It is hard for me to reconcile the behavior of that strong young man with the behavior of my dying friend.
Oct 16, 2016, 3:55 am
#140
Join Date: May 2015
Location: South Florida
Programs: DL Skymiles KE Skypass
Posts: 2,363
I came to this thread based on the MyFlyertalk email highlighting threads or I would never have seen this.
I have never flown Southwest, so my comments are just what if's.
I have seen some comments mention delaying able body people from exiting a row of seats because someone who is disabled or needing to preboard would "block" them from doing so. How did they get in the seat in the first place? I would think they climbed over the person in the aisle who had preboarded and could not move/stand up to let them in. They could just as easily climbed over the person in the aisle to get out. If they couldn't, why would they select those seats when boarding when there are many other rows further back? If they were already on the plane from the earlier continuing flight and saw the disabled person approaching, they could change their seats/move their carry-ons before general boarding ensues.
OR, they were preboarders themselves who took the window/middle before the other took the aisle. They would need to wait as well as those who needed assistance getting off the plane as well. They would not be delayed any further than others that preboarded unless they were fakers to get on board first.
I have flown international with my wife only and if I can't get a seat in the back of the plane where it changes from a three abreast to two abreast due to the curvature of the fuselage, we take a window/middle (she is small sized 5', 120lbs). We have learned to climb over a person in the aisle who may be sleeping without waking them, and I (a large sized person weighing close to 275 lbs.) am able to do so as well. I guess I am lucky to be so nimble at my size to do so.
So the argument continues about "blocking" people from deplaning due to a person sitting in an aisle who cannot move.
I have never flown Southwest, so my comments are just what if's.
I have seen some comments mention delaying able body people from exiting a row of seats because someone who is disabled or needing to preboard would "block" them from doing so. How did they get in the seat in the first place? I would think they climbed over the person in the aisle who had preboarded and could not move/stand up to let them in. They could just as easily climbed over the person in the aisle to get out. If they couldn't, why would they select those seats when boarding when there are many other rows further back? If they were already on the plane from the earlier continuing flight and saw the disabled person approaching, they could change their seats/move their carry-ons before general boarding ensues.
OR, they were preboarders themselves who took the window/middle before the other took the aisle. They would need to wait as well as those who needed assistance getting off the plane as well. They would not be delayed any further than others that preboarded unless they were fakers to get on board first.
I have flown international with my wife only and if I can't get a seat in the back of the plane where it changes from a three abreast to two abreast due to the curvature of the fuselage, we take a window/middle (she is small sized 5', 120lbs). We have learned to climb over a person in the aisle who may be sleeping without waking them, and I (a large sized person weighing close to 275 lbs.) am able to do so as well. I guess I am lucky to be so nimble at my size to do so.
So the argument continues about "blocking" people from deplaning due to a person sitting in an aisle who cannot move.
Oct 16, 2016, 12:49 pm
#141
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: USA
Programs: Chase Sapphire Reserve, WFBF
Posts: 1,573
Ultimately, this is a tradeoff between assigned seating and open seating. There are pluses and minuses to both systems. One of the big negatives of open seating is it invites "cheating" the system to try to get a better seat. Unfortunately, any of the suggestions that would reduce cheating would also harm those with a real need for pre-boarding.
But I wanted to chime in to make two observations:
1. Pre-boarders cannot sit in the exit row. So, at least there is that.
2. Even someone who cheats and pre-boards may not get a seat in the front. I have been on through flights where the first available seat was in the back.
We consumers also make tradeoffs. If it is very important to you to sit in a particular place (or to avoid a particular place), you should choose an airline that offers assigned seating. There are of course benefits of open seating (quick boarding is a big ^).
Finally, even if everything works well, sometimes the airline may force you to switch seats (for example, for weight and balance reasons, to accommodate someone with a disability, or equipment substitution-- all three have happened to me). Ultimately, when flying commercial it is really to get you from A to B and that's all you're ever guaranteed.
But I wanted to chime in to make two observations:
1. Pre-boarders cannot sit in the exit row. So, at least there is that.
2. Even someone who cheats and pre-boards may not get a seat in the front. I have been on through flights where the first available seat was in the back.
We consumers also make tradeoffs. If it is very important to you to sit in a particular place (or to avoid a particular place), you should choose an airline that offers assigned seating. There are of course benefits of open seating (quick boarding is a big ^).
Finally, even if everything works well, sometimes the airline may force you to switch seats (for example, for weight and balance reasons, to accommodate someone with a disability, or equipment substitution-- all three have happened to me). Ultimately, when flying commercial it is really to get you from A to B and that's all you're ever guaranteed.
Oct 16, 2016, 12:52 pm
#142
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,246
I came to this thread based on the MyFlyertalk email highlighting threads or I would never have seen this.
I have never flown Southwest, so my comments are just what if's.
I have seen some comments mention delaying able body people from exiting a row of seats because someone who is disabled or needing to preboard would "block" them from doing so. How did they get in the seat in the first place? I would think they climbed over the person in the aisle who had preboarded and could not move/stand up to let them in.
So the argument continues about "blocking" people from deplaning due to a person sitting in an aisle who cannot move.
I have never flown Southwest, so my comments are just what if's.
I have seen some comments mention delaying able body people from exiting a row of seats because someone who is disabled or needing to preboard would "block" them from doing so. How did they get in the seat in the first place? I would think they climbed over the person in the aisle who had preboarded and could not move/stand up to let them in.
So the argument continues about "blocking" people from deplaning due to a person sitting in an aisle who cannot move.
But once again, someone with no personal knowledge of traveling with a disable passenger is making assumptions.
The people in the middle/window seats got into them most likely by the disabled passenger standing up and getting out of the way. Not necessarily the easiest thing for the disabled passenger but that's what they have to deal with if they need to preboard. When they do get up to let someone in, it's a little different than at the end of the flight when everyone is in the aisle and there's some jostling going on.
And not everyone wants to climb over or be climbed over. If everyone's ok with it, then sure, go for it. But not everyone is so there will be occasions where the passengers in the middle/window are delayed from deplaning. For whatever reason they might have been some of the last on the plane or they knew they had a tight connection and those were the only seats near the front of the plane. They are entitled to deplane as quickly as any other passenger and it's not really fair to them to hold them up.
The person I travel with will, if it doesn't inconvenience other people, wait till there's a break in the action to get off. We try to be as considerate as our situation allows. My biggest beef with these arguments is not that there are other ways of doing it, it's the attitude from some posters that disabled passengers should be treated like second-class citizens and are just an inconvenience to everyone else so they should stay home.
Oct 16, 2016, 4:04 pm
#143
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,246
Ultimately, this is a tradeoff between assigned seating and open seating. There are pluses and minuses to both systems. One of the big negatives of open seating is it invites "cheating" the system to try to get a better seat. Unfortunately, any of the suggestions that would reduce cheating would also harm those with a real need for pre-boarding.
But I wanted to chime in to make two observations:
1. Pre-boarders cannot sit in the exit row. So, at least there is that.
2. Even someone who cheats and pre-boards may not get a seat in the front. I have been on through flights where the first available seat was in the back.
We consumers also make tradeoffs. If it is very important to you to sit in a particular place (or to avoid a particular place), you should choose an airline that offers assigned seating. There are of course benefits of open seating (quick boarding is a big ^).
Finally, even if everything works well, sometimes the airline may force you to switch seats (for example, for weight and balance reasons, to accommodate someone with a disability, or equipment substitution-- all three have happened to me). Ultimately, when flying commercial it is really to get you from A to B and that's all you're ever guaranteed.
But I wanted to chime in to make two observations:
1. Pre-boarders cannot sit in the exit row. So, at least there is that.
2. Even someone who cheats and pre-boards may not get a seat in the front. I have been on through flights where the first available seat was in the back.
We consumers also make tradeoffs. If it is very important to you to sit in a particular place (or to avoid a particular place), you should choose an airline that offers assigned seating. There are of course benefits of open seating (quick boarding is a big ^).
Finally, even if everything works well, sometimes the airline may force you to switch seats (for example, for weight and balance reasons, to accommodate someone with a disability, or equipment substitution-- all three have happened to me). Ultimately, when flying commercial it is really to get you from A to B and that's all you're ever guaranteed.
Also, for the most part a "better seat" is very subjective. Certainly there are physical advantages to some of the exit row seats (and some physical disadvantages so even those aren't perfect) and sometimes bulkhead seats. Other than that, the biggest difference for like seats is just front or back of the aircraft.
Some people like the back. Some people like the front. Some people like wherever there are enough seats that their party can sit together.
Oct 16, 2016, 6:09 pm
#144
Join Date: Oct 2015
Programs: HH Dia, Marriott Titanium, AA Gold, UA Silver
Posts: 192
Ultimately, this is a tradeoff between assigned seating and open seating. There are pluses and minuses to both systems. One of the big negatives of open seating is it invites "cheating" the system to try to get a better seat. Unfortunately, any of the suggestions that would reduce cheating would also harm those with a real need for pre-boarding.
But I wanted to chime in to make two observations:
1. Pre-boarders cannot sit in the exit row. So, at least there is that.
2. Even someone who cheats and pre-boards may not get a seat in the front. I have been on through flights where the first available seat was in the back.
We consumers also make tradeoffs. If it is very important to you to sit in a particular place (or to avoid a particular place), you should choose an airline that offers assigned seating. There are of course benefits of open seating (quick boarding is a big ^).
Finally, even if everything works well, sometimes the airline may force you to switch seats (for example, for weight and balance reasons, to accommodate someone with a disability, or equipment substitution-- all three have happened to me). Ultimately, when flying commercial it is really to get you from A to B and that's all you're ever guaranteed.
But I wanted to chime in to make two observations:
1. Pre-boarders cannot sit in the exit row. So, at least there is that.
2. Even someone who cheats and pre-boards may not get a seat in the front. I have been on through flights where the first available seat was in the back.
We consumers also make tradeoffs. If it is very important to you to sit in a particular place (or to avoid a particular place), you should choose an airline that offers assigned seating. There are of course benefits of open seating (quick boarding is a big ^).
Finally, even if everything works well, sometimes the airline may force you to switch seats (for example, for weight and balance reasons, to accommodate someone with a disability, or equipment substitution-- all three have happened to me). Ultimately, when flying commercial it is really to get you from A to B and that's all you're ever guaranteed.
Oct 22, 2016, 4:08 pm
#146
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: CLT
Programs: Marriott Plat, AA Gold
Posts: 1,076
Which lends itself to the fact that either WN's open seating isn't the root cause of "fake" preboarders as this happened on a flight with assigned seats or, as has been pointed out a few times, there are a variety of reasons why a wheelchair might not be needed at the destination.
I usually fly AA (mostly just because I live in CLT), but did 4 segments on WN this week. I didn't look to see how many preboarders/wheelchairs there were on departure, but on arrival on all 4 flights I certainly noticed more people needing assistance/wheelchairs than I typically do on AA. On AA (and probably the other big guys), essentially the first 8+ rows are reserved for frequent flyers/people paying more, so maybe there are more behind those rows that I don't typically see (although I guess I'm not 100% sure if people needing assistance would be able to call and get the "choice" seats). But if they can be pretty much guaranteed the first couple rows on WN, then I would fly WN too if I needed preboarding.
As far as this thread, I certainly agree that it's silly to have them sit in the back if they need assistance. I would agree that they shouldn't choose a window+aisle on the same side. Don't see an issue with aisle+aisle.
I usually go for the window seat furthest to the front that I can find (but not bulkhead), and on 3 of my 4 flights I ended up in a row 2 window next to deserving preboarders. Once was actually with a B40 boarding number, I just had to climb over someone who didn't move very well (I didn't mind as I am small and don't usually get up during the flight)...and fortunately for me the person needing assistance was in the middle with her mother on the aisle.
My question is for us non-preboarders, what is the proper etiquette when deplaning and the preboarders are getting in their wheelchairs -- Should I be waiting behind them or go by? If there was a lot of room I usually went by, but if I thought it would be tight (and again I'm pretty small) I tried to wait but then there were usually people behind me trying to barrel through.
Oct 23, 2016, 6:34 am
#147
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 94
Preboard is just one of many things that Southwest doesn't enforce... I've seen tons of perfectly capable people us pre-board along with being allowed to take along 2-3 people with them...
The bigger issue that slows down boarding is them not enforcing the carry on rules. Some of the bags and number of bags that they allow people to carry on is absolutely ridiculous.
The bigger issue that slows down boarding is them not enforcing the carry on rules. Some of the bags and number of bags that they allow people to carry on is absolutely ridiculous.
Oct 23, 2016, 8:12 am
#149
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 56
I think there is compromise to be had here.
Those of us who are able-bodied with able-bodied family members should know how blessed we are and empathize with those who are truly and genuinely disabled.
BUT, I think it's also important to acknowledge that abuse of the system is real.
Remember when Disney World got into that hubbub about abuse of the ADA stuff a few years ago? People were abusing the system then too, to get to front of the line or whatever they were doing. Disney didn't just throw up their hands and say, "Well, nothing we can do about it. There are legitimately disabled people who come here, so people just have to suck it up." No. They came up with a solution. Not a perfect solution. And obviously abuse still exists, I'm sure. But, they came up with a solution they felt was fair to both the legitimately disabled and to the able-bodied who did have to wait in line.
Southwest doesn't have to come up with a "perfect" plan. Abuse will always exist. But, if they could come with something that makes things just a little bit more fair to all parties involved, something that would at least curtail abuse of the system...I think that's all a lot of us ask for. There is a happy medium between "Send them all to the back" and "Nothing we can do about it, it is what it is."
Those of us who are able-bodied with able-bodied family members should know how blessed we are and empathize with those who are truly and genuinely disabled.
BUT, I think it's also important to acknowledge that abuse of the system is real.
Remember when Disney World got into that hubbub about abuse of the ADA stuff a few years ago? People were abusing the system then too, to get to front of the line or whatever they were doing. Disney didn't just throw up their hands and say, "Well, nothing we can do about it. There are legitimately disabled people who come here, so people just have to suck it up." No. They came up with a solution. Not a perfect solution. And obviously abuse still exists, I'm sure. But, they came up with a solution they felt was fair to both the legitimately disabled and to the able-bodied who did have to wait in line.
Southwest doesn't have to come up with a "perfect" plan. Abuse will always exist. But, if they could come with something that makes things just a little bit more fair to all parties involved, something that would at least curtail abuse of the system...I think that's all a lot of us ask for. There is a happy medium between "Send them all to the back" and "Nothing we can do about it, it is what it is."
Oct 23, 2016, 12:53 pm
#150
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,246