Pre-boarders should be forced to sit in the back of the plane
#121
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,246
Anyway, no need to write any letters. There's only so many ways to follow the DOT rules and even if those were to change, there are still only so many ways to board an aircraft. Especially as everything starts with "does the airline have reserved or open seating".
I guess I should have started with what change? Either you know something most of us don't, in which case why hold that back and have a pointless discussion, or, well, you know.....Occam's razor and all that.
#122
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,513
That's when WN's new $500 million IT will allow for assigned seating and the revenue potential that comes with it. If corporate doesn't mess with the pre-boarding fiasco, you will be golden. But I will be shocked.
Now Southwest Can Act Like Other Airlines
I contend §382.83(c) does not exempt WN from having to provide "an adequate number of seats used to provide the seating accommodations required by §382.81."
Pre-boarders in one big scrum intensify hit-or-miss seating accommodations.
#123
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 11
Frustration and Entitlement
As an added bonus, pre-boarders sent to the back first should get rid of the fakers. I have no idea how many are fakers but I do think it's strange that the number of wheelchairs needed to get ON the plane is always more than the number of wheelchairs needed to get OFF the plane. This occurs with any airline but on Southwest with no seat assignments, I think it's unfair.
I've never bought a Business Select fare, but if I did and found the first five rows full of drooling old people I would be miffed
Correct, why is it if I needed time to get on the plane, that I would not need time or a wheel chair to get off the plane?
How is extra time defined? (If I have overloaded my bag and need extra time to force in the overhead and take space from other travelers because I am too cheap to check bag)
If I am so frail, should I stay home?
I could go on. The one thing my parents taught us (or most families at the time) is not to inconvenience others. Today, many folks try to figure out how to inconvenience others and this is one of those examples where I am sure there are a few folks who actually need assistance and more time (My 87 yr old mother refused to pre-board).
Values and morals are lacking today and show up in all of the ways we tell folks they are entitled vs not; parking spaces, pre-boarding, etc.
I am sure my parents and ancestors are turning over in their graves because they did not pre-board because of young children, (yeah, they stayed home), road the bus when they were pregnant (so don't need those spaces) and did not use a wheel chair because walking was difficult (walking helps most ailments) Oh, I carry on those principles today on unselfishly sharing the space.
#124
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
#125
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 13
My best suggestion for those complaining about the pre-board situation: don't fly SW. Instead, fly a traditional airline with assigned seats. Problem solved.
I have flown injured a couple of times. In the first case, I broke my wrist and elbow while on a guy's trip. I had to rebook my flight to fly home early and used points to upgrade to first since I would be needing the extra elbow room. No problems there. In my second situation it was flying for Thanksgiving a few weeks after the injury. We booked on DL and made sure to choose assigned seats that allowed myself and my fiance to sit together. No problem there either.
So... the moral of the story is simply: don't ..... about unassigned seats on Southwest.
I have flown injured a couple of times. In the first case, I broke my wrist and elbow while on a guy's trip. I had to rebook my flight to fly home early and used points to upgrade to first since I would be needing the extra elbow room. No problems there. In my second situation it was flying for Thanksgiving a few weeks after the injury. We booked on DL and made sure to choose assigned seats that allowed myself and my fiance to sit together. No problem there either.
So... the moral of the story is simply: don't ..... about unassigned seats on Southwest.
#128
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,323
There is entirely too much abuse of the system going on these days. Blatant cheating. It needs to be solved somehow.
If you pre-board alone, fine, sit anywhere. But if someone "able-bodied" accompanies you, one of you should be required to sit in a middle, especially if there are a few people getting on early with your group. This is not unreasonable. At all.
You need to understand that you are getting something valuable, so you should accept a mild restriction. You want to move up 60-90 places in line for free, and without status, you should pay a price. Sorry if that sounds heartless.
And I have experience traveling on WN with my 83 y.o. M-I-L. We were denied early boarding. I know something about this stuff.
If you pre-board alone, fine, sit anywhere. But if someone "able-bodied" accompanies you, one of you should be required to sit in a middle, especially if there are a few people getting on early with your group. This is not unreasonable. At all.
You need to understand that you are getting something valuable, so you should accept a mild restriction. You want to move up 60-90 places in line for free, and without status, you should pay a price. Sorry if that sounds heartless.
And I have experience traveling on WN with my 83 y.o. M-I-L. We were denied early boarding. I know something about this stuff.
First, I have been A+ and a CP holder for a few years. Often, I fly BS, just because of last minute bookings, the fare differential is nominal.
Recently, I have also had to pre-board, something I had never experienced in all those years of flying WN . . . until now.
Common civility is clearly out the window. My CP holder ALWAYS takes the middle seat when I preboard, and I don't understand why this even needs to be discussed here. Why should the "able bodied" person leave a middle seat open if you are accompanying a preboarder? That's just rude.
Just a note, also, that some preboarders are not moving up 60-90 places in line for free, as some might just be A or A+ anyway. But, before my recent preboarding need, I must say I often felt "cheated" when I was holding that A16, and the gate agent was selling spaces in line ahead of me for $30.
A few customers might be "scamming" the system by claiming to need to preboard, but it is far worse when WN is scamming its most loyal customers by zooming someone without status to the front of the line.
#129
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Programs: DL PM/MM, former UA 1K
Posts: 37
Pre-Boarding on LUV
Have to share a story that will either make you laugh, cry or hit something...
Was boarding LUV OAK-PDX about a year ago. Arrived at OAK gate to find 16 people in wheelchairs. 16 people. Either a retirement home booked the flight (no sign of a group leader or manager, so I doubt it...), or everyone on the flight over the age of 65 decided to skip the Business Select fee and take a wheelchair so they could get seats in the front of the plane.
I took a picture of the gate area and posted it on my Twitter feed. Went viral for about 3 weeks, hundreds of and replies.
Was boarding LUV OAK-PDX about a year ago. Arrived at OAK gate to find 16 people in wheelchairs. 16 people. Either a retirement home booked the flight (no sign of a group leader or manager, so I doubt it...), or everyone on the flight over the age of 65 decided to skip the Business Select fee and take a wheelchair so they could get seats in the front of the plane.
I took a picture of the gate area and posted it on my Twitter feed. Went viral for about 3 weeks, hundreds of and replies.
#130
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Programs: DL PM/MM, former UA 1K
Posts: 37
You do realize there's a latch on the underside of every 737 aisle seat armrest that allows the armrest to be lifted up and stowed adjacent to the seat back, right?
#131
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toledo, OH
Programs: Delta DM & MM, Hilton DM, Marriott gold, Hyatt Globalist, Alaska 75K, Wyndham Diamond,
Posts: 15,399
Have to share a story that will either make you laugh, cry or hit something...
Was boarding LUV OAK-PDX about a year ago. Arrived at OAK gate to find 16 people in wheelchairs. 16 people. Either a retirement home booked the flight (no sign of a group leader or manager, so I doubt it...), or everyone on the flight over the age of 65 decided to skip the Business Select fee and take a wheelchair so they could get seats in the front of the plane.
I took a picture of the gate area and posted it on my Twitter feed. Went viral for about 3 weeks, hundreds of and replies.
Was boarding LUV OAK-PDX about a year ago. Arrived at OAK gate to find 16 people in wheelchairs. 16 people. Either a retirement home booked the flight (no sign of a group leader or manager, so I doubt it...), or everyone on the flight over the age of 65 decided to skip the Business Select fee and take a wheelchair so they could get seats in the front of the plane.
I took a picture of the gate area and posted it on my Twitter feed. Went viral for about 3 weeks, hundreds of and replies.
#132
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10
Stop the Whining
Why does it seem like more than half the people travelling seen to be "handicapped"? We all know the scam....I'll ask for a wheelchair at the curb when I depart because.....I want to get wheeled through security and straight to the gate. I want to get on the plane first..so I can exit first and call larry while we are still taxiing to let him know...I have a carryon and will be out in a jiffy. No one who needs a wheelchair to board SHOULD BE ALLOWED A CARRYON! Why? because god forbid there is an emergency THEY WILL NOT LEAVE THAT DAMN PLANE WITHOUT THAT CARRY ON! Why not let the pre boarders Handicappers BOARD THROUGH THE BACK DOOR AND SIT BACK THERE. After all....they will be closer to the LAVS (2) and be able to take their time getting on and off the pot. ALSO...NEVER EVER ALLOW A PRE BOARD TO SIT IN AN EXIT ROW!!!!!NEVER!!!!YOU WANT A PRIME SEAT.....PAY FOR IT!!!!!!!...I can't wait for all the replies now....My husband has a cold.....my wife has hammer toes.....I have been suffering with asthma all my life....there just can't be EVERYONE WITH A COLD SUDDENLY HANDICAPPED!
#133
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,246
Except the issue was whether airlines' blocking off row/seats better meets the disabled's needs.
I contend §382.83(c) does not exempt WN from having to provide "an adequate number of seats used to provide the seating accommodations required by §382.81."
Pre-boarders in one big scrum intensify hit-or-miss seating accommodations.
I contend §382.83(c) does not exempt WN from having to provide "an adequate number of seats used to provide the seating accommodations required by §382.81."
Pre-boarders in one big scrum intensify hit-or-miss seating accommodations.
That's not correct. The verbiage you used comes straight from 382.83(a)(1). That section is preceded by 382.83(a) which says "If you are a carrier that provides advance seat assignments to passengers...". WN isn't so 382.83(a)(1) isn't applicable to WN. So WN doesn't need to block any seats because they have to allow preboarding which opens up the whole plane.
The whole notion of open seating is one big scrum so why single out preboarders?
Correct, why is it if I needed time to get on the plane, that I would not need time or a wheel chair to get off the plane?
The one thing my parents taught us (or most families at the time) is not to inconvenience others. Today, many folks try to figure out how to inconvenience others
The one thing my parents taught us (or most families at the time) is not to inconvenience others. Today, many folks try to figure out how to inconvenience others
Common civility is clearly out the window. My CP holder ALWAYS takes the middle seat when I preboard, and I don't understand why this even needs to be discussed here. Why should the "able bodied" person leave a middle seat open if you are accompanying a preboarder? That's just rude.
Why does it seem like more than half the people travelling seen to be "handicapped"? We all know the scam....I'll ask for a wheelchair at the curb when I depart because.....I want to get wheeled through security and straight to the gate. I want to get on the plane first..so I can exit first and call larry while we are still taxiing to let him know...I have a carryon and will be out in a jiffy. No one who needs a wheelchair to board SHOULD BE ALLOWED A CARRYON! Why? because god forbid there is an emergency THEY WILL NOT LEAVE THAT DAMN PLANE WITHOUT THAT CARRY ON! Why not let the pre boarders Handicappers BOARD THROUGH THE BACK DOOR AND SIT BACK THERE. After all....they will be closer to the LAVS (2) and be able to take their time getting on and off the pot. ALSO...NEVER EVER ALLOW A PRE BOARD TO SIT IN AN EXIT ROW!!!!!NEVER!!!!YOU WANT A PRIME SEAT.....PAY FOR IT!!!!!!!...I can't wait for all the replies now....My husband has a cold.....my wife has hammer toes.....I have been suffering with asthma all my life....there just can't be EVERYONE WITH A COLD SUDDENLY HANDICAPPED!
#134
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Blue Ridge, GA
Posts: 5,513
Block, don't block.
But WN needs to take ownership of the pre-boarding parody.
§382.81(d) For a passenger with a fused or immobilized leg, you must provide a bulkhead seat or other seat that provides greater legroom than other seats, on the side of an aisle that better accommodates the individual's disability.
#135
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,246
if walk-aboard pre-boarders grab bulkhead aisle seats, Southwest isn't allowing passengers specified in §382.81 the chance to select the seat that best meets their needs. Where they enter the pre-board scrum is anybody's guess.
Block, don't block.
But WN needs to take ownership of the pre-boarding parody.
Block, don't block.
But WN needs to take ownership of the pre-boarding parody.
To be clear, there are at least two things going on in this thread. One is where preboarders should sit and how they should be treated, etc, and the other is WN's boarding procedure. Lots of overlap but not exactly the same thing.
The OP was denigrating people with disabilities, as were other people in this thread. Your posts, at least the last ones, are about WN's boarding policy and procedure.
I think people treating disabled people like second-class citizens who are more trouble than they are worth are just ignorant.
I think your point, as well as others, about WN needing to change its boarding process is a valid point. Whether I or anyone else agrees or disagrees is simply a matter of opinion.
That said, I hope you see where WN's only choice is to either change their process to assigned seating or get the DOT to approve a different process with unassigned seating.
WN already, by its policy which is posted on its webpage, doesn't count preboarders just needing additional time in their preboard process so they don't need to block seats. The problem is, as is the case with many of the boarding issues, that the WN employee in charge of controlling it (i.e. the gate agent) doesn't always control it and lets people who just need additional time to preboard with all preboarders. I certainly agree that is a problem and WN could go along way with many of its customers if they just enforced that one rule.
Last edited by justhere; Oct 12, 2016 at 11:20 pm