Pre-boarders should be forced to sit in the back of the plane
Jan 4, 2017, 10:27 am
#241
Join Date: Aug 2006
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After all, if this was discussed on the UA forum (where seat assignment is a non-issue), basis of early boarding is to provide add'l time/assistance. And if a passenger needs add'l time/assistance to board, said passenger would also need add'l time/assistance to deplane.
§ 382.7 General prohibition of
discrimination.
(a) A carrier shall not, directly or through
contractual, licensing, or other arrangements:
(1) Discriminate against any otherwise
qualified individual with a disability, by
reason of such disability, in the provision of
air transportation;
(2) Require a person with a disability to
accept special services (including, but not
limited to, preboarding) not requested by the
passenger;
(3) Exclude a qualified individual with a
disability from or deny the person the benefit
of any air transportation or related services
that are available to other persons, even if
there are separate or different services
available for persons with a disability except
when specifically permitted by another
section of this part; or,
(4) Take any action adverse to an
individual because of the individual’s
assertion, on his or her own behalf or through
or behalf of others, of rights protected by this
part or the Air Carrier Access Act.
discrimination.
(a) A carrier shall not, directly or through
contractual, licensing, or other arrangements:
(1) Discriminate against any otherwise
qualified individual with a disability, by
reason of such disability, in the provision of
air transportation;
(2) Require a person with a disability to
accept special services (including, but not
limited to, preboarding) not requested by the
passenger;
(3) Exclude a qualified individual with a
disability from or deny the person the benefit
of any air transportation or related services
that are available to other persons, even if
there are separate or different services
available for persons with a disability except
when specifically permitted by another
section of this part; or,
(4) Take any action adverse to an
individual because of the individual’s
assertion, on his or her own behalf or through
or behalf of others, of rights protected by this
part or the Air Carrier Access Act.
(c) Carriers shall not restrict the movements
of persons with a disability in terminals or
require them to remain in a holding area or
other location in order to be provided
transportation, to receive assistance, or for
other purposes, or otherwise mandate separate
treatment for persons with a disability, except
as permitted or required in this part.
of persons with a disability in terminals or
require them to remain in a holding area or
other location in order to be provided
transportation, to receive assistance, or for
other purposes, or otherwise mandate separate
treatment for persons with a disability, except
as permitted or required in this part.
Last edited by lexdevil; Jan 4, 2017 at 10:50 am
Jan 4, 2017, 11:41 am
#242
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
WaPo article on the subject of assistance animals. No idea if these people know what they are talking about.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...at-behind-you/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...at-behind-you/
Jan 4, 2017, 11:58 am
#243
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
But that is not permitted, based on the non-discrimination language I quoted earlier. See below.
On Southwest you cannot know if they preboarded to get seating accommodations or because they needed more time, so you can't treat them differently on egress. It may be legal to require those who board early to deplane last on airlines with assigned seating, but not on Southwest.
On Southwest you cannot know if they preboarded to get seating accommodations or because they needed more time, so you can't treat them differently on egress. It may be legal to require those who board early to deplane last on airlines with assigned seating, but not on Southwest.
There are 2 early boarding considerations:
1. Add'l time/assistance (not legally required)
2. Seat assignment - doesn't apply to most carriers (legally required)
Re #1. If a passenger requires add'l time to board, then said passenger requires add'l time to deplane. This remains valid regardless if a seat was pre-assigned or not.
Re #2. Disability laws are also in place to protect the health and safety of the disabled. Passengers needing the advantage to "pre select" seats should also be protected by deplaning last (or first).
Jan 4, 2017, 12:28 pm
#245
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
lexdevil
The code you have been quoting is out of date. See here for current code:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...se14.4.382_171
Note under §382.83 Through what mechanisms do carriers make seating accommodations?
(Emphasis added mine)
Code defines passengers needed to pre-board.
The code you have been quoting is out of date. See here for current code:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...se14.4.382_171
Note under §382.83 Through what mechanisms do carriers make seating accommodations?
(c) If you do not provide advance seat assignments to passengers, you must allow passengers specified in §382.81 to board the aircraft before other passengers, including other “preboarded” passengers, so that the passengers needing seating accommodations can select seats that best meet their needs.
Code defines passengers needed to pre-board.
§382.81 For which passengers must carriers make seating accommodations?
As a carrier, you must provide the following seating accommodations to the following passengers on request, if the passenger self-identifies to you as having a disability specified in this section and the type of seating accommodation in question exists on the particular aircraft. Once the passenger self-identifies to you, you must ensure that the information is recorded and properly transmitted to personnel responsible for providing the accommodation.
(a) For a passenger who uses an aisle chair to access the aircraft and who cannot readily transfer over a fixed aisle armrest, you must provide a seat in a row with a movable aisle armrest. You must ensure that your personnel are trained in the location and proper use of movable aisle armrests, including appropriate transfer techniques. You must ensure that aisle seats with movable armrests are clearly identifiable.
(b) You must provide an adjoining seat for a person assisting a passenger with a disability in the following circumstances:
(1) When a passenger with a disability is traveling with a personal care attendant who will be performing a function for the individual during the flight that airline personnel are not required to perform (e.g., assistance with eating);
(2) When a passenger with a vision impairment is traveling with a reader/assistant who will be performing functions for the individual during the flight;
(3) When a passenger with a hearing impairment is traveling with an interpreter who will be performing functions for the individual during the flight; or
(4) When you require a passenger to travel with a safety assistant (see §382.29).
(c) For a passenger with a disability traveling with a service animal, you must provide, as the passenger requests, either a bulkhead seat or a seat other than a bulkhead seat.
(d) For a passenger with a fused or immobilized leg, you must provide a bulkhead seat or other seat that provides greater legroom than other seats, on the side of an aisle that better accommodates the individual's disability.
As a carrier, you must provide the following seating accommodations to the following passengers on request, if the passenger self-identifies to you as having a disability specified in this section and the type of seating accommodation in question exists on the particular aircraft. Once the passenger self-identifies to you, you must ensure that the information is recorded and properly transmitted to personnel responsible for providing the accommodation.
(a) For a passenger who uses an aisle chair to access the aircraft and who cannot readily transfer over a fixed aisle armrest, you must provide a seat in a row with a movable aisle armrest. You must ensure that your personnel are trained in the location and proper use of movable aisle armrests, including appropriate transfer techniques. You must ensure that aisle seats with movable armrests are clearly identifiable.
(b) You must provide an adjoining seat for a person assisting a passenger with a disability in the following circumstances:
(1) When a passenger with a disability is traveling with a personal care attendant who will be performing a function for the individual during the flight that airline personnel are not required to perform (e.g., assistance with eating);
(2) When a passenger with a vision impairment is traveling with a reader/assistant who will be performing functions for the individual during the flight;
(3) When a passenger with a hearing impairment is traveling with an interpreter who will be performing functions for the individual during the flight; or
(4) When you require a passenger to travel with a safety assistant (see §382.29).
(c) For a passenger with a disability traveling with a service animal, you must provide, as the passenger requests, either a bulkhead seat or a seat other than a bulkhead seat.
(d) For a passenger with a fused or immobilized leg, you must provide a bulkhead seat or other seat that provides greater legroom than other seats, on the side of an aisle that better accommodates the individual's disability.
Jan 4, 2017, 1:46 pm
#246
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hold it down for The Bay, reppin' Oakland
Programs: Lowly UA silver, Marriott Ambassador/Tit4Lyf, IHG Plat
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lexdevil
The code you have been quoting is out of date. See here for current code:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...se14.4.382_171
Note under §382.83 Through what mechanisms do carriers make seating accommodations?
(Emphasis added mine)
Code defines passengers needed to pre-board.
The code you have been quoting is out of date. See here for current code:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...se14.4.382_171
Note under §382.83 Through what mechanisms do carriers make seating accommodations?
(Emphasis added mine)
Code defines passengers needed to pre-board.
§382.85 What seating accommodations must carriers make to passengers in circumstances not covered by §382.81 (a) through (d)?
As a carrier, you must provide the following seating accommodations to a passenger who self-identifies as having a disability other than one in the four categories listed in §382.81 (a) through (d) of this part and as needing a seat assignment accommodation in order to readily access and use the carrier's air transportation services:
(a) As a carrier that assigns seats in advance, you must provide accommodations in the following ways:
(1) If you use the “seat-blocking” mechanism of §382.83(a)(1) of this part, you must implement the requirements of this section as follows:
(i) When a passenger with a disability not described in §382.81(a) through (d) of this part makes a reservation more than 24 hours before the scheduled departure time of the flight, you are not required to offer the passenger one of the seats blocked for the use of passengers with a disability listed under §382.81.
(ii) However, you must assign to the passenger any seat, not already assigned to another passenger that accommodates the passenger's needs, even if that seat is not available for assignment to the general passenger population at the time of the request.
(2) If you use the “designated priority seats” mechanism of §382.83(a)(2) of this part, you must implement the requirements of this section as follows:
(i) When a passenger with a disability not described in §382.81 makes a reservation, you must assign to the passenger any seat, not already assigned to another passenger, that accommodates the passenger's needs, even if that seat is not available for assignment to the general passenger population at the time of the request. You may require a passenger making such a request to check in one hour before the standard check-in time for the flight.
(ii) If such a passenger is assigned to a designated priority seat, he or she is subject to being reassigned to another seat as provided in §382.83(a)(2)(i) of this subpart.
(b) On flights where advance seat assignments are not offered, you must provide seating accommodations under this section by allowing passengers to board the aircraft before other passengers, including other “preboarded” passengers, so that the individuals needing seating accommodations can select seats that best meet their needs.
(c) If you assign seats to passengers, but not until the date of the flight, you must use the “priority seating” approach of section 382.83(a)(2).
As a carrier, you must provide the following seating accommodations to a passenger who self-identifies as having a disability other than one in the four categories listed in §382.81 (a) through (d) of this part and as needing a seat assignment accommodation in order to readily access and use the carrier's air transportation services:
(a) As a carrier that assigns seats in advance, you must provide accommodations in the following ways:
(1) If you use the “seat-blocking” mechanism of §382.83(a)(1) of this part, you must implement the requirements of this section as follows:
(i) When a passenger with a disability not described in §382.81(a) through (d) of this part makes a reservation more than 24 hours before the scheduled departure time of the flight, you are not required to offer the passenger one of the seats blocked for the use of passengers with a disability listed under §382.81.
(ii) However, you must assign to the passenger any seat, not already assigned to another passenger that accommodates the passenger's needs, even if that seat is not available for assignment to the general passenger population at the time of the request.
(2) If you use the “designated priority seats” mechanism of §382.83(a)(2) of this part, you must implement the requirements of this section as follows:
(i) When a passenger with a disability not described in §382.81 makes a reservation, you must assign to the passenger any seat, not already assigned to another passenger, that accommodates the passenger's needs, even if that seat is not available for assignment to the general passenger population at the time of the request. You may require a passenger making such a request to check in one hour before the standard check-in time for the flight.
(ii) If such a passenger is assigned to a designated priority seat, he or she is subject to being reassigned to another seat as provided in §382.83(a)(2)(i) of this subpart.
(b) On flights where advance seat assignments are not offered, you must provide seating accommodations under this section by allowing passengers to board the aircraft before other passengers, including other “preboarded” passengers, so that the individuals needing seating accommodations can select seats that best meet their needs.
(c) If you assign seats to passengers, but not until the date of the flight, you must use the “priority seating” approach of section 382.83(a)(2).
§382.93 Must carriers offer preboarding to passengers with a disability?
As a carrier, you must offer preboarding to passengers with a disability who self-identify at the gate as needing additional time or assistance to board, stow accessibility equipment, or be seated.
As a carrier, you must offer preboarding to passengers with a disability who self-identify at the gate as needing additional time or assistance to board, stow accessibility equipment, or be seated.
And includes similar prohibitions against discrimination.
§382.11 What is the general nondiscrimination requirement of this part?
(a) As a carrier, you must not do any of the following things, either directly or through a contractual, licensing, or other arrangement:
(1) You must not discriminate against any qualified individual with a disability, by reason of such disability, in the provision of air transportation;
(2) You must not require a qualified individual with a disability to accept special services (including, but not limited to, preboarding) that the individual does not request. However, you may require preboarding as a condition of receiving certain seating or in-cabin stowage accommodations, as specified in §§382.83(c), 382.85(b), and 382.123(a) of this part.
(3) You must not exclude a qualified individual with a disability from or deny the person the benefit of any air transportation or related services that are available to other persons, except where specifically permitted by this Part. This is true even if there are separate or different services available for individuals with a disability, except when specifically permitted by another section of this Part; and
(4) You must not take any adverse action against an individual (e.g., refusing to provide transportation) because the individual asserts, on his or her own behalf or through or on behalf of others, rights protected by this part or the Air Carrier Access Act.
(b) As an indirect carrier, you must comply with §§382.17 through 382.157 of this part when providing facilities or services to passengers that would have otherwise been provided by a direct air carrier.
(a) As a carrier, you must not do any of the following things, either directly or through a contractual, licensing, or other arrangement:
(1) You must not discriminate against any qualified individual with a disability, by reason of such disability, in the provision of air transportation;
(2) You must not require a qualified individual with a disability to accept special services (including, but not limited to, preboarding) that the individual does not request. However, you may require preboarding as a condition of receiving certain seating or in-cabin stowage accommodations, as specified in §§382.83(c), 382.85(b), and 382.123(a) of this part.
(3) You must not exclude a qualified individual with a disability from or deny the person the benefit of any air transportation or related services that are available to other persons, except where specifically permitted by this Part. This is true even if there are separate or different services available for individuals with a disability, except when specifically permitted by another section of this Part; and
(4) You must not take any adverse action against an individual (e.g., refusing to provide transportation) because the individual asserts, on his or her own behalf or through or on behalf of others, rights protected by this part or the Air Carrier Access Act.
(b) As an indirect carrier, you must comply with §§382.17 through 382.157 of this part when providing facilities or services to passengers that would have otherwise been provided by a direct air carrier.
§382.33 May carriers impose other restrictions on passengers with a disability that they do not impose on other passengers?
(a) As a carrier, you must not subject passengers with a disability to restrictions that do not apply to other passengers, except as otherwise permitted in this part (e.g., advance notice requirements for certain services permitted by §382.27).
(b) Restrictions you must not impose on passengers with a disability include, but are not limited to, the following:
(1) Restricting passengers” movement within the terminal;
(2) Requiring passengers to remain in a holding area or other location in order to receive transportation, services, or accommodations;
(3) Making passengers sit on blankets on the aircraft;
(4) Making passengers wear badges or other special identification (e.g., similar to badges worn by unaccompanied minors); or
(5) Otherwise mandating separate treatment for passengers with a disability, unless permitted or required by this part or other applicable Federal requirements.
(a) As a carrier, you must not subject passengers with a disability to restrictions that do not apply to other passengers, except as otherwise permitted in this part (e.g., advance notice requirements for certain services permitted by §382.27).
(b) Restrictions you must not impose on passengers with a disability include, but are not limited to, the following:
(1) Restricting passengers” movement within the terminal;
(2) Requiring passengers to remain in a holding area or other location in order to receive transportation, services, or accommodations;
(3) Making passengers sit on blankets on the aircraft;
(4) Making passengers wear badges or other special identification (e.g., similar to badges worn by unaccompanied minors); or
(5) Otherwise mandating separate treatment for passengers with a disability, unless permitted or required by this part or other applicable Federal requirements.
Last edited by lexdevil; Jan 4, 2017 at 1:59 pm
Jan 4, 2017, 2:14 pm
#247
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
There isn't.
The point is the pre-board/seat accommodation is specifically defined...not all disabled persons are eligible. Thus, those who pre-board for seat accommodation vs needing add'l time should be (somewhat) apparent.
The point is the pre-board/seat accommodation is specifically defined...not all disabled persons are eligible. Thus, those who pre-board for seat accommodation vs needing add'l time should be (somewhat) apparent.
Jan 4, 2017, 5:16 pm
#248
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hold it down for The Bay, reppin' Oakland
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§382.85 What seating accommodations must carriers make to passengers in circumstances not covered by §382.81 (a) through (d)?
As a carrier, you must provide the following seating accommodations to a passenger who self-identifies as having a disability other than one in the four categories listed in §382.81 (a) through (d) of this part and as needing a seat assignment accommodation in order to readily access and use the carrier's air transportation services
As a carrier, you must provide the following seating accommodations to a passenger who self-identifies as having a disability other than one in the four categories listed in §382.81 (a) through (d) of this part and as needing a seat assignment accommodation in order to readily access and use the carrier's air transportation services
Jan 4, 2017, 6:21 pm
#249
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Posts: 1,483
an added bonus, pre-boarders sent to the back first should get rid of the fakers.
Oh geez, sorry, forgot about your arm
Last edited by judolphin; Jan 4, 2017 at 6:27 pm
Jan 4, 2017, 8:08 pm
#250
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 252
I'm sure this has been said 1,000 times, but you actually want the people who are having trouble walking to walk all the way to the back of the plane?
Oh OK, now we come to your real concern... You want to force actual invalids to walk the length of the plane... To avoid abuse by crappy people? Cause pain to the disabled to punish people who failed to pay $15? What's the matter with you? *slap-slap-slap*
Oh geez, sorry, forgot about your arm
Oh OK, now we come to your real concern... You want to force actual invalids to walk the length of the plane... To avoid abuse by crappy people? Cause pain to the disabled to punish people who failed to pay $15? What's the matter with you? *slap-slap-slap*
Oh geez, sorry, forgot about your arm
Jan 4, 2017, 8:22 pm
#251
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hold it down for The Bay, reppin' Oakland
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(b) On flights where advance seat assignments are not offered, you must provide seating accommodations under this section by allowing passengers to board the aircraft before other passengers, including other “preboarded” passengers, so that the individuals needing seating accommodations can select seats that best meet their needs.
Jan 4, 2017, 9:32 pm
#252
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: DEN
Posts: 1,962
The thing is though, if someone checks a wheelchair, for example, the airline is required to unload that first and bring it up to the gate unless the customer asks for it to be delivered to baggage claim. So that wheelchair is going to sit in the jetway while everyone tries to exit if the preboarder doesn't get off and out the way.
Seriously, that never happens.
Jan 4, 2017, 10:22 pm
#253
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
Seat accommodation is different from pre-board. All disabled are eligible for seat accommodations (per the section you quoted) but not all are eligible for pre-board. Those qualified for pre-board is per the section I quoted.
Jan 5, 2017, 12:22 am
#254
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Jan 5, 2017, 12:27 am
#255
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Read the full section and note the underlined parts.
§382.85 What seating accommodations must carriers make to passengers in circumstances not covered by §382.81 (a) through (d)?
As a carrier, you must provide the following seating accommodations to a passenger who self-identifies as having a disability other than one in the four categories listed in §382.81 (a) through (d) of this part and as needing a seat assignment accommodation in order to readily access and use the carrier's air transportation services:
(a) As a carrier that assigns seats in advance, you must provide accommodations in the following ways:
(1) If you use the “seat-blocking” mechanism of §382.83(a)(1) of this part, you must implement the requirements of this section as follows:
(i) When a passenger with a disability not described in §382.81(a) through (d) of this part makes a reservation more than 24 hours before the scheduled departure time of the flight, you are not required to offer the passenger one of the seats blocked for the use of passengers with a disability listed under §382.81.
(ii) However, you must assign to the passenger any seat, not already assigned to another passenger that accommodates the passenger's needs, even if that seat is not available for assignment to the general passenger population at the time of the request.
(2) If you use the “designated priority seats” mechanism of §382.83(a)(2) of this part, you must implement the requirements of this section as follows:
(i) When a passenger with a disability not described in §382.81 makes a reservation, you must assign to the passenger any seat, not already assigned to another passenger, that accommodates the passenger's needs, even if that seat is not available for assignment to the general passenger population at the time of the request. You may require a passenger making such a request to check in one hour before the standard check-in time for the flight.
(ii) If such a passenger is assigned to a designated priority seat, he or she is subject to being reassigned to another seat as provided in §382.83(a)(2)(i) of this subpart.
(b) On flights where advance seat assignments are not offered, you must provide seating accommodations under this section by allowing passengers to board the aircraft before other passengers, including other “preboarded” passengers, so that the individuals needing seating accommodations can select seats that best meet their needs.
(c) If you assign seats to passengers, but not until the date of the flight, you must use the “priority seating” approach of section 382.83(a)(2).
As a carrier, you must provide the following seating accommodations to a passenger who self-identifies as having a disability other than one in the four categories listed in §382.81 (a) through (d) of this part and as needing a seat assignment accommodation in order to readily access and use the carrier's air transportation services:
(a) As a carrier that assigns seats in advance, you must provide accommodations in the following ways:
(1) If you use the “seat-blocking” mechanism of §382.83(a)(1) of this part, you must implement the requirements of this section as follows:
(i) When a passenger with a disability not described in §382.81(a) through (d) of this part makes a reservation more than 24 hours before the scheduled departure time of the flight, you are not required to offer the passenger one of the seats blocked for the use of passengers with a disability listed under §382.81.
(ii) However, you must assign to the passenger any seat, not already assigned to another passenger that accommodates the passenger's needs, even if that seat is not available for assignment to the general passenger population at the time of the request.
(2) If you use the “designated priority seats” mechanism of §382.83(a)(2) of this part, you must implement the requirements of this section as follows:
(i) When a passenger with a disability not described in §382.81 makes a reservation, you must assign to the passenger any seat, not already assigned to another passenger, that accommodates the passenger's needs, even if that seat is not available for assignment to the general passenger population at the time of the request. You may require a passenger making such a request to check in one hour before the standard check-in time for the flight.
(ii) If such a passenger is assigned to a designated priority seat, he or she is subject to being reassigned to another seat as provided in §382.83(a)(2)(i) of this subpart.
(b) On flights where advance seat assignments are not offered, you must provide seating accommodations under this section by allowing passengers to board the aircraft before other passengers, including other “preboarded” passengers, so that the individuals needing seating accommodations can select seats that best meet their needs.
(c) If you assign seats to passengers, but not until the date of the flight, you must use the “priority seating” approach of section 382.83(a)(2).