massive QF FF programme changes
Mar 17, 2001, 6:32 pm
#76
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Melbourne,Victoria,Australia
Programs: QF Plat (Life Gold), SQ PPS
Posts: 1,072
Ozstamps, I know exactly what BC seats cost..I actually buy them occasionally! My point was that even UA asks only 50% extra points for BC award seats vs. economy, not 100%. And whether or not only 25% extra points for BC is the 'industry norm', it's still a ripoff, and a large backwards step for Qantas customers.
As for the 'real world', may I point out that UA (and most US airlines) are presently losing money at a great rate. Maybe they need a few more paying BC pax..
[This message has been edited by whughes3 (edited 03-17-2001).]
As for the 'real world', may I point out that UA (and most US airlines) are presently losing money at a great rate. Maybe they need a few more paying BC pax..
[This message has been edited by whughes3 (edited 03-17-2001).]
Mar 17, 2001, 10:04 pm
#77
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Sunny SYDNEY!
Programs: UA Million Miler. (1.9M) Virgin Platinum. HH Diamond + SPG Gold
Posts: 32,330
aarono ... The double points I get on UA (42,500) for this trip is possible only if a Premier Executive or a 1K, which your friends will not be I guess? It also earns me 8 x 500 mile confirmable 1st Class upgrade certs, another thing QF need to look at. Your friends still get the 20,000+ miles even if they have never once flown UA before, and that is clearly good for a Sydney-Broome type AN return flight, worth $1000 on its own, or nearly the cost of the MEL-NY-MEL ticket. If they talk nicely to any 1Ks they might even get their hands on some Systemwides to use as well. 
Here's what it looks like (bookmark this neat website!):
www.chicago.com/cgi-bin/ gc?PATH=SYD-LAX-SEA-DEN-EWR-DEN-SFO-SYD%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=
Thanks for weather tip! Very warm and sunny here and I'm packing today. Our trip out on the Staten Island ferry Sunday morning might be chillier than I imagine, so I'll pack for it!
whughes. Yep it is only 25% extra whether airlines are losing or making money, that is all they pay mostly. LH do great deal for Senator's etc, but in general flying paid J/C is not worth it in points earned.
------------------
~ Glen ~
[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 03-17-2001).]
Here's what it looks like (bookmark this neat website!):
www.chicago.com/cgi-bin/ gc?PATH=SYD-LAX-SEA-DEN-EWR-DEN-SFO-SYD%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=
Thanks for weather tip! Very warm and sunny here and I'm packing today. Our trip out on the Staten Island ferry Sunday morning might be chillier than I imagine, so I'll pack for it!
whughes. Yep it is only 25% extra whether airlines are losing or making money, that is all they pay mostly. LH do great deal for Senator's etc, but in general flying paid J/C is not worth it in points earned.
------------------
~ Glen ~
[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 03-17-2001).]
Mar 17, 2001, 10:17 pm
#78
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 108
Hi whughes3,
<<1) re the change from km to miles..sorry to be a cynic, but I remain to be convinced that it is anything other than a ploy to make it hard to compare the old system with the new, and to conceal the fact that behind all the hype, it's a pretty ordinary deal for the majority of people. >>
I guess it was never going to easy convincing the sceptics
Don’t condemn QF too quickly – give me a chance to explain!
I am not sure what other examples to give you convince you that it is not a ploy? The basic fact is that airlines alliances are becoming critical to the success of the airlines – QF simply can’t afford to be out on it’s own when all its major partners (CX, AA and BA) operate in miles.
So far we have gone through all the economy combs, upgrades and other some recogntion features... now lets look at business class.
<<2) one real horror story which hasn't had much comment so far is the treatment of BC pax (FC too, but that's academic for me!).
In the current scheme, BC pax got about 80% more points than discount economy; BC reward flights cost 25% (dom) or 50% (int) more points. In the new scheme, BC gets only 25% more points; BC flights cost 50-100% more! THIS STINKS! It is surely the worst treatment of BC pax by any FF scheme anywhere! (The US airlines are a bit ordinary in this regard, but nowhere near as bad as this). Is this considered the way to treat high-value customers? Myself (current Silver) I will get 12% less points for BC flights under the new scheme...thanks a lot!>>
There are a couple of points to go through:
1. It is much easier to move up the tiers in Qantas program when flying business or first class (in fact much easier than other US or Asian carriers). Less than 4 J class return trips SYD-LAX to retain Platinum status (just over 4 to qualify for the first time). You will find both AA and UA require substantially more round trips to qualify for 1K or exec plat. Because you move up the tiers faster on QF flying J class you get the tier bonuses much faster (which off-set the move to mile). Also note that bronze (current non-tiers) do more than 95% of their travel in discount economy – business class earn rates have very little impact on their overall points balances. So tier bonuses are designed to reverse or lessen the impact of the move to miles. Also current silvers are much more likely to make it to platinum (and stay) under the new scheme – especially for travel outside the Qantas network (many more tier credits).
2. Lets do a benchmark of US programs versus QF (in J classes):
Domestic premium: QF 30,000 for less than 2000 miles and 45,000 for other domestic and trans-Tasman flights. AA/UA 40,000 or 80,000 (depending on availability) – within 48 states; UA/AA 60,000 or 120,000 (depending on availability) – Hawaii.
International medium-hall (Australia to Asia versus USA to South America): QF 100,000 for less than 10,000 miles (includes SIN, HKG, BKK, etc). AA 90,000 or 180,000 (depending on availability); UA 80,000 or 150,000 (depending on availability).
Long-haul (SYD-LAX): QF 160,000. UA 90,000 or 150,000 (depending on availability). AA do not fly this route - use QF.
So I think the conclusion is that QF is pretty competitive – some lower and some higher. Now compare with other Asian/European carriers…. Now compare with the cash fare difference Y to J…. also remember you can use your upgrade certs or use points to upgrade on international routes. Ah yeah almost forgot Qantas has also extended the life of the upgrade certificates (so you can accumulate for use on international flights) – 1 year to 2 years.
3. Business class cabin bonus: 25% is pretty standard although some European carriers offer higher cabin bonuses with no tier status bonuses.
4. Business class minimum earn is 1250 points - so on a standard SYD-MEL you don't get 11% less points. You get 42% more points. Once again the minimum earn has been left out.... it benefits everyone on short-haul sectors (once again check your FF statement and count all thouse little transfer/connector flights). It adds up!
<< Ozstamps, I know exactly what BC seats cost..I actually buy them occasionally! My point was that even UA asks only 50% extra points for BC award seats vs. economy, not 100%. And whether or not only 25% extra points for BC is the 'industry norm', it's still a ripoff, and a large backwards step for Qantas customers.>>
As discussed above this is not quite correct. For example UA charge 25,000 for the cheapest economy redemption and 40,000 or 80,000 points for the corresponding business class seat. Look at the AA rates for the US to Europe (Y is 40,000+ business starts at 90,000).
As discussed the 25% is complemented by the tier bonuses (25-100%).
<<As for the 'real world', may I point out that UA (and most US airlines) are presently losing money at a great rate. Maybe they need a few more paying BC pax.. >>
Hmmm… Southwest is the most profitable US airline and they don’t have a business class – so I am not sure the number of points you issue in business class has any correlation to airline profitability….
Hi Aarono,
<<I am starting to think I should have joined UA FF scheme. I have been with QANTAS a few years now and bought a one world global explorer ticket because of this. I think now I should have one with star alliance. Seems to be more benefits and higher rewards. I am living in NYC city at the moment and have friends visiting, I will tell them to fly UA so that they get more FF points. Can they do the day stops like you?>>
Looks like I have failed in my quest to spread the word on Qantas FF program
The oneworld explorer tickets represent the best value RTW ticket – don’t have to pay more for more miles (like star) – great way to rack up points and status quickly.
Cheers… Bruce
[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 03-17-2001).]
<<1) re the change from km to miles..sorry to be a cynic, but I remain to be convinced that it is anything other than a ploy to make it hard to compare the old system with the new, and to conceal the fact that behind all the hype, it's a pretty ordinary deal for the majority of people. >>
I guess it was never going to easy convincing the sceptics
Don’t condemn QF too quickly – give me a chance to explain!
I am not sure what other examples to give you convince you that it is not a ploy? The basic fact is that airlines alliances are becoming critical to the success of the airlines – QF simply can’t afford to be out on it’s own when all its major partners (CX, AA and BA) operate in miles.
So far we have gone through all the economy combs, upgrades and other some recogntion features... now lets look at business class.
<<2) one real horror story which hasn't had much comment so far is the treatment of BC pax (FC too, but that's academic for me!).
In the current scheme, BC pax got about 80% more points than discount economy; BC reward flights cost 25% (dom) or 50% (int) more points. In the new scheme, BC gets only 25% more points; BC flights cost 50-100% more! THIS STINKS! It is surely the worst treatment of BC pax by any FF scheme anywhere! (The US airlines are a bit ordinary in this regard, but nowhere near as bad as this). Is this considered the way to treat high-value customers? Myself (current Silver) I will get 12% less points for BC flights under the new scheme...thanks a lot!>>
There are a couple of points to go through:
1. It is much easier to move up the tiers in Qantas program when flying business or first class (in fact much easier than other US or Asian carriers). Less than 4 J class return trips SYD-LAX to retain Platinum status (just over 4 to qualify for the first time). You will find both AA and UA require substantially more round trips to qualify for 1K or exec plat. Because you move up the tiers faster on QF flying J class you get the tier bonuses much faster (which off-set the move to mile). Also note that bronze (current non-tiers) do more than 95% of their travel in discount economy – business class earn rates have very little impact on their overall points balances. So tier bonuses are designed to reverse or lessen the impact of the move to miles. Also current silvers are much more likely to make it to platinum (and stay) under the new scheme – especially for travel outside the Qantas network (many more tier credits).
2. Lets do a benchmark of US programs versus QF (in J classes):
Domestic premium: QF 30,000 for less than 2000 miles and 45,000 for other domestic and trans-Tasman flights. AA/UA 40,000 or 80,000 (depending on availability) – within 48 states; UA/AA 60,000 or 120,000 (depending on availability) – Hawaii.
International medium-hall (Australia to Asia versus USA to South America): QF 100,000 for less than 10,000 miles (includes SIN, HKG, BKK, etc). AA 90,000 or 180,000 (depending on availability); UA 80,000 or 150,000 (depending on availability).
Long-haul (SYD-LAX): QF 160,000. UA 90,000 or 150,000 (depending on availability). AA do not fly this route - use QF.
So I think the conclusion is that QF is pretty competitive – some lower and some higher. Now compare with other Asian/European carriers…. Now compare with the cash fare difference Y to J…. also remember you can use your upgrade certs or use points to upgrade on international routes. Ah yeah almost forgot Qantas has also extended the life of the upgrade certificates (so you can accumulate for use on international flights) – 1 year to 2 years.
3. Business class cabin bonus: 25% is pretty standard although some European carriers offer higher cabin bonuses with no tier status bonuses.
4. Business class minimum earn is 1250 points - so on a standard SYD-MEL you don't get 11% less points. You get 42% more points. Once again the minimum earn has been left out.... it benefits everyone on short-haul sectors (once again check your FF statement and count all thouse little transfer/connector flights). It adds up!
<< Ozstamps, I know exactly what BC seats cost..I actually buy them occasionally! My point was that even UA asks only 50% extra points for BC award seats vs. economy, not 100%. And whether or not only 25% extra points for BC is the 'industry norm', it's still a ripoff, and a large backwards step for Qantas customers.>>
As discussed above this is not quite correct. For example UA charge 25,000 for the cheapest economy redemption and 40,000 or 80,000 points for the corresponding business class seat. Look at the AA rates for the US to Europe (Y is 40,000+ business starts at 90,000).
As discussed the 25% is complemented by the tier bonuses (25-100%).
<<As for the 'real world', may I point out that UA (and most US airlines) are presently losing money at a great rate. Maybe they need a few more paying BC pax.. >>
Hmmm… Southwest is the most profitable US airline and they don’t have a business class – so I am not sure the number of points you issue in business class has any correlation to airline profitability….
Hi Aarono,
<<I am starting to think I should have joined UA FF scheme. I have been with QANTAS a few years now and bought a one world global explorer ticket because of this. I think now I should have one with star alliance. Seems to be more benefits and higher rewards. I am living in NYC city at the moment and have friends visiting, I will tell them to fly UA so that they get more FF points. Can they do the day stops like you?>>
Looks like I have failed in my quest to spread the word on Qantas FF program
The oneworld explorer tickets represent the best value RTW ticket – don’t have to pay more for more miles (like star) – great way to rack up points and status quickly.
Cheers… Bruce
[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 03-17-2001).]
Mar 17, 2001, 11:09 pm
#79
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Melbourne,Victoria,Australia
Programs: QF Plat (Life Gold), SQ PPS
Posts: 1,072
Bruceb, thanks for your comments..I'm still not 100% convinced, but I'll chew on it for now!
(BTW, my comment about UA's losses was intended to be a dig at the 'everything-UA-is-wonderful' brigade..I should have put a wink on it!)
May I make a few inquiries about international upgrades while I'm at it?
1) upgrades are apparently bookable from 355 days in advance..will anything be done to ensure that people (like me) who normally book close to flight time won't be disadvantaged by this?
2) will elites have have any actual or de-facto preference for upgrades?
(BTW, my comment about UA's losses was intended to be a dig at the 'everything-UA-is-wonderful' brigade..I should have put a wink on it!)
May I make a few inquiries about international upgrades while I'm at it?
1) upgrades are apparently bookable from 355 days in advance..will anything be done to ensure that people (like me) who normally book close to flight time won't be disadvantaged by this?
2) will elites have have any actual or de-facto preference for upgrades?
Mar 17, 2001, 11:29 pm
#80
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 108
<<(BTW, my comment about UA's losses was intended to be a dig at the 'everything-UA-is-wonderful' brigade..I should have put a wink on it!) >>
Understand! I actually think they have a good program – it’s just the product that I question…
<<May I make a few inquiries about international upgrades while I'm at it?
1) upgrades are apparently bookable from 355 days in advance..will anything be done to ensure that people (like me) who normally book close to flight time won't be disadvantaged by this?>>
The normal revenue management process should benefit you - in fact I imagine upgrades will be much easier to book closer to flight departure.
Cheers… Bruce
[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 05-01-2001).]
Understand! I actually think they have a good program – it’s just the product that I question…
<<May I make a few inquiries about international upgrades while I'm at it?
1) upgrades are apparently bookable from 355 days in advance..will anything be done to ensure that people (like me) who normally book close to flight time won't be disadvantaged by this?>>
The normal revenue management process should benefit you - in fact I imagine upgrades will be much easier to book closer to flight departure.
Cheers… Bruce
[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 05-01-2001).]
Mar 18, 2001, 12:08 am
#81
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Melbourne, Vic., Australia.
Programs: QF Platinum One (LTG), UA Plat IHG Plat
Posts: 5,836
bruceb - No worries about your UA comments, and I quite agree.. they are losing pax and money, and pulling out service items by the loads right now (geez, no more godivas in C?! ). I can only think, though, that at some point the tide will turn (as it always does) and things will get better. I happen to personally find the Star RTW fares are good value for me vs. the oneworld(tm) fares, but it's all personal. As always bruce, your comments are valuable and welcome
ozstamps - a purely personal comment here - sure, your deal is good, you are using 1K status, 15% off certs, and SWU's to great advantage... but let's face it, normal joe's aren't going to get anything like that and it's not really so great to keep telling everyone how wonderful your deals are. It makes you look very condescending to many other people - specially the joes who fork out for paid C and F class. Just my opinion though
------------------
UA 1K MEL
A Star Alliance(tm) Member.
). I can only think, though, that at some point the tide will turn (as it always does) and things will get better. I happen to personally find the Star RTW fares are good value for me vs. the oneworld(tm) fares, but it's all personal. As always bruce, your comments are valuable and welcome ozstamps - a purely personal comment here - sure, your deal is good, you are using 1K status, 15% off certs, and SWU's to great advantage... but let's face it, normal joe's aren't going to get anything like that and it's not really so great to keep telling everyone how wonderful your deals are. It makes you look very condescending to many other people - specially the joes who fork out for paid C and F class. Just my opinion though
------------------
UA 1K MEL
A Star Alliance(tm) Member.
Mar 18, 2001, 12:33 am
#82
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Sunny SYDNEY!
Programs: UA Million Miler. (1.9M) Virgin Platinum. HH Diamond + SPG Gold
Posts: 32,330
RichardMel .. your name does not have to be JOE to get these.
You just pick up the phone to UA and ask for LAX or SFO ($A999) or NYC ($A1299). No special handshakes, no vouchers, no passwords needed. 131777. And your next door neighbout gets to NYC, and gets a free flight anywhere in OZ at the end of it.
------------------
~ Glen ~
You just pick up the phone to UA and ask for LAX or SFO ($A999) or NYC ($A1299). No special handshakes, no vouchers, no passwords needed. 131777. And your next door neighbout gets to NYC, and gets a free flight anywhere in OZ at the end of it.
------------------
~ Glen ~
Mar 18, 2001, 12:36 am
#83
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Sunny SYDNEY!
Programs: UA Million Miler. (1.9M) Virgin Platinum. HH Diamond + SPG Gold
Posts: 32,330
Richard .. this is one time you need a visible email. please phone me FAST if you are reading this.
10 mins later:
Maybe Richard is having dinner now? Anyone in OZ who is not dining, and wants to try and book RT fares OZ to Europe for $US60, give me a call before the web glitch gets fixed! o2-9958 1333
[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 03-18-2001).]
10 mins later:
Maybe Richard is having dinner now? Anyone in OZ who is not dining, and wants to try and book RT fares OZ to Europe for $US60, give me a call before the web glitch gets fixed! o2-9958 1333
[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 03-18-2001).]
Mar 18, 2001, 1:19 am
#85
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Sunny SYDNEY!
Programs: UA Million Miler. (1.9M) Virgin Platinum. HH Diamond + SPG Gold
Posts: 32,330
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/004301.html
I'll keep this brief as I am still playing with travelocity to try and snag one somehow! Thanks for the heads up ffhound!
------------------
~ Glen ~
I'll keep this brief as I am still playing with travelocity to try and snag one somehow! Thanks for the heads up ffhound!
------------------
~ Glen ~
Mar 18, 2001, 3:55 pm
#87
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 9
Bruce,
I think you have done a great job in telling everyone about the new Qantas FF scheme. I don't think I will change from Qantas, even though I said I might. I have never had any problems with them and they have always been fantastic. I thought that Ozstamps was saying that anyone could get 40000 miles out of a return trip to NYC.... but that is only if you are a silver or something.
I am just looking forward to seeing the new tables for one world to come up so I can decide which is the best way to redeem my points.
Cheers
Aaron
I think you have done a great job in telling everyone about the new Qantas FF scheme. I don't think I will change from Qantas, even though I said I might. I have never had any problems with them and they have always been fantastic. I thought that Ozstamps was saying that anyone could get 40000 miles out of a return trip to NYC.... but that is only if you are a silver or something.
I am just looking forward to seeing the new tables for one world to come up so I can decide which is the best way to redeem my points.
Cheers
Aaron
Mar 18, 2001, 4:25 pm
#88
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 108
Hi All,
As promised please find below the details for status matching.
Qantas sometimes do one-offs (although not usually to Platinum). Please write to the following contact (no commitments given) – with a copy of your current card and last FF statement:
Darren Peisley
Manager Loyalty and Airline Alliances
Qantas Airway
Qantas Building QCA8, 203 Coward Street
Mascot, NSW 2020
Cheers… Bruce
As promised please find below the details for status matching.
Qantas sometimes do one-offs (although not usually to Platinum). Please write to the following contact (no commitments given) – with a copy of your current card and last FF statement:
Darren Peisley
Manager Loyalty and Airline Alliances
Qantas Airway
Qantas Building QCA8, 203 Coward Street
Mascot, NSW 2020
Cheers… Bruce
Mar 18, 2001, 6:20 pm
#89
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Melbourne,Victoria,Australia
Programs: QF Plat (Life Gold), SQ PPS
Posts: 1,072
Bruceb,
Re your query about my experience with getting upgrades..I can only say lately it's been a bit odd! Every time I have tried lately using the 'official' phone service, I have been told flatly that no upgrades were available..but when I get to the airport and ask nicely at checkin or the QC lounge, it's 'no worries mate!' (despite the fact that this is contrary to the published policy). Maybe I am getting preferential treatment for being Silver? Anyway, I hope international upgrades work a bit more predictably.
On the general issues, I have been doing some detailed sums on what will happen to me, and I must agree that I personally will be considerably better off..the gains on economy swamp the losses on BC. However, I still think it's a bit bizarre that it will take *fewer* economy flights to earn a BC reward flight, but *more* BC flights to do the same!
Finally, can you tell me what will happen with the 3000/5500km upgrade certs that elites get now..if unused by 15/9, how many 'upgrade credits' will they translate to?
Re your query about my experience with getting upgrades..I can only say lately it's been a bit odd! Every time I have tried lately using the 'official' phone service, I have been told flatly that no upgrades were available..but when I get to the airport and ask nicely at checkin or the QC lounge, it's 'no worries mate!' (despite the fact that this is contrary to the published policy). Maybe I am getting preferential treatment for being Silver? Anyway, I hope international upgrades work a bit more predictably.
On the general issues, I have been doing some detailed sums on what will happen to me, and I must agree that I personally will be considerably better off..the gains on economy swamp the losses on BC. However, I still think it's a bit bizarre that it will take *fewer* economy flights to earn a BC reward flight, but *more* BC flights to do the same!
Finally, can you tell me what will happen with the 3000/5500km upgrade certs that elites get now..if unused by 15/9, how many 'upgrade credits' will they translate to?
Mar 18, 2001, 7:07 pm
#90
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Melbourne, Vic., Australia.
Programs: QF Platinum One (LTG), UA Plat IHG Plat
Posts: 5,836
bruceb - but, but the $60 fare to europe is NOT on QF !!
As an aside to this, I just last night did some sums to help out a guy in rec.travel.air decide which FF program to go to: AN or UA. I worked out that for his desired award he could get 2.6 trips by going with UA vs. 1.1 (!) on AN. Crazy stuff!
(I would have done *new* QF, but for two reasons: 1. he's flying in May/June, and b) he's flying * Carriers ).
Thought I'd throw this one in as an aside.
Thanks for the comp info. I'd shout you a beer when I pass through SYD in a few weeks 'cept you wouldn't go near the GW Club would you?
------------------
UA 1K MEL
A Star Alliance(tm) Member.
As an aside to this, I just last night did some sums to help out a guy in rec.travel.air decide which FF program to go to: AN or UA. I worked out that for his desired award he could get 2.6 trips by going with UA vs. 1.1 (!) on AN. Crazy stuff!
(I would have done *new* QF, but for two reasons: 1. he's flying in May/June, and b) he's flying * Carriers
).Thought I'd throw this one in as an aside.
Thanks for the comp info. I'd shout you a beer when I pass through SYD in a few weeks 'cept you wouldn't go near the GW Club would you?
------------------
UA 1K MEL
A Star Alliance(tm) Member.