ozstamps

WHAT A MESS THE SLOW FT HAS CREATED!!!!

Bruce, Richard, FF Found, Kunoichi, etc, may I please ask when things normalise if you might consider editing all dupes to a single period "." rr mark as dupe etc? It is not just this thread. MrKey posted about 30 times literally on the Catman Buzz thread .. FT is Fritzed this evening. And this thread is so informative too! Seems a shame.

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~ Glen ~

bruceb

Hi Peter,

Don’t mean to sound negative in this post – appreciate the analysis you have done – just disagree with the examples used.

<<Let's take several long distance trips to arrive at an average (full fare economy)>>

Only impacts less than 5% of long haul economy passengers (I think the actual number is less than 1%) - how many people do you know that pay $7000 for an economy ticket SYD-LAX (most people travel will travel business class for this price rather than full economy). So the relavent comparision is discount economy (@ the current 70% of kms to 100% of miles). When you redo the numbers with this you will see the far majority of members are better of. I posted the % in a post above. Also if you include other Asian routes in your basket of routes (route like SYD-HKG) you will find the percentage differences even bigger (as the reward cost drops from 80,000 pts to 50,000 pts).

REMEMBER: Ask yourself if you have ever paid $7000 SYD-LAX or $9000 SYD-LHR… these are the full economy rates.

So lets look at SYD-LAX example: how many trips does it take to earn a free trip
Old System: 6
New System – Bronze: 5
New System – Silver: 4
New System – Gold: 4
New System – Platinum: 3


<<Thus had you flown Qantas you would only be 15,800/80,000 * 100 = 19.75% of the way towards a free ticket to LA again. If you fly United or Air New Zealand you are 15,800/60,000 * 100 = 26.33% of the way towards a free flight. >>

Assumes you are only flying SYD-LAX. No connecting flights earning the minimum mileage bonus (1000 points). For example HBA-MEL-LAX or other combinations. This also changes the reward costs.

Lets add a fairer comparison of the two programs. Lets pick similar distance routes in each of the home markets for example in US (LAX-SFO – 338 miles / 543 kms) and Oz (SYD-MEL – 438 miles / 704 kms) + (SYD-CBR – 146 miles / 236 kms) – this gives one longer and one shorter. Both high volume business and leisure routes. On UAL you earn 338 miles (no minimum earn on shuttle) and the redemption costs you 25,000 points – 37 trips to get one free trip. On Qantas for both SYD-MEL and SYD-CBR it only takes 10 trips to earn one free one.

Note using a UAL program on SYD-MEL = 23 trips required to get one free; SYD-CBR = 69 trips to get one free.

So it is easy on both sides to pick examples where one is clearly better than the other, but I think it is over generalising to say “UAL’s” program is always better.

<<Looking at domestic redemptions the difference becomes more stark. You require 30,000 miles for a Melbourne to Perth round trip with QFF but only 20,000 Mileage Plus miles. Our 15,800 miles gets you 79% of the way to Perth but Qantas only gets you 52.66% of the way. >>

Ignores the minimum earn bonus of 1000 miles for every sector, which UAL does not offer. Also I find it interesting that the basic reward in US costs 25,000 miles and in Austrlia only 20,000 miles – why do you think this is? How long will it go on for?

Also ignores the Qantas partner network in Australia and NZ – over 100 different partners to earn additional points on.

Lets add another comparison – Australian Credit Card versus US credit card program. As credit cards a becoming a more important component of point earning.

US$1=A$2… so right of the back you earn double the number of miles.

Also look at a product like QTVC that earns 2 points for every Australian dollar spent overseas. So when I am in the US I get 4 miles for every US$ spent versus 1.


Cheers… Bruce

bruceb

Hi ozstamps,

<<WHAT A MESS THE SLOW FT HAS CREATED!!!!>>

Tried to clean up but with no luck.... says I do not have the correct password.

Worked it out... FT didn't like my password.

Cheers... Bruce



[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 03-16-2001).]

adenda

I know a few have mentioned this, but no-one seems to have spelt it out.
Will the current (admittedly, bargain) 30000 point Around Oz reward no longer be available under the new scheme or will it just be prohibitively expensive (points wise) as a result of the 10,000/stopover?

As an example, I recently took an award flight SYD-MEL(stopover)-WLG-SYD for 30,000 points. My calculation under the new scheme for this itinerary is 70,000 points - a 133% increase!! Is this right? If so, then it's ridiculous. A straight SYD-WLG-SYD would still be 30,000 and a SYD-MEL-SYD would be 20,000 so 2 separate itineraries would 'save' 20,000 points (70,000 - 50,000) yet involve an extra flight segment. In other words the argument for charging 10,000 per stopover to free up seats seems a bit shallow when, in this case, it would be cheaper (in points) to take an extra unneccessary flight segment.

BTW: Thanks, Bruce for your input - you have concisely answered a lot of queries.

Adam

bruceb

Hi aarono,

<<I have a question regarding RTW redemption. I was planning to redeem a British Airways zone 9, which (apparently) allows unlimited travel and stopovers on all non-codeshare British Airways flights. The only restriction is the amount of time your go thru LHR. Under the new Qantas scheme will in be possible to get a RTW redeemed ticket, or will it not be worth it with the new 10,000 point stopover fee? Should I redeem my points prior to September 15? I was hoping to make the most of my points.>>

I think this is one of best rewards in the OneWorld FF programs (RTW redemptions) – Qantas, BA or AA programs. This award will continue after the 15th Sept (although I think the distance has been capped at 50,000 kms). You do not get charged the stopover fee for this type of award - you need to travel on at least 3 OneWorld carriers (Qantas needs to be one of these). There is separate table for QF oneworld awards.

<<I also have a huge amount of points that will expire in August next year - does that mean they will not expire now?>>

YES.... :: )))

Cheers... Bruce

[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 03-16-2001).]

RichardMEL

bruceb minor correction - UA has a 500 mile minimum on all UA, UAX and UA* flights (ie: United Distress and Cattle by United.. oops I mean United Shuttle ). You're right that previous to this year there was no minimum on Shuttle. This has since been changed (which is why I am doing a ton of little hops on my next RTW to take advantage of it ).

QF wins with the 1000 mile minimum. No question. Definately great for people in CBR, LST, HBA and places around BNE, SYD etc.

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents on that one.

And yeah, noone pays $7000 for SYD-LAX you're right there!

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UA 1K MEL
A Star Alliance(tm) Member.

ffhound

Dear Bruce

No worries.

I tried to steer away from giving examples that cast the program in one particular light. The examples I used were largely from personal experience and reflect the reasons that I chose to accrue or redeem miles on United. Based on my travel patterns (infrequent, long haul flights with redemptions from Melbourne to Perth or Cairns), United's program is good value. Add to that the thousands of miles it gives me for filling our surveys online and other free online bonuses and it is excellent value. I just redeemed 80,000 miles for 4 tickets MEL-PER. The cost to me of earning these miles was a total of about $A1,100. I doubt that I could ever have earned 120,000 miles for this amount on Qantas's program.

Mind you if Qantas dropped its joining fee
and had the right promotion (eg double points to London) I'd join.

I might add that I don't have any particular grudge against Qantas - I am just ruthless in extracting the best frequent flyer deal every time I fly. Their service is OK. For example I purchased a round trip package on Qantas to Hong Kong 2 years ago (6 nights $A834 all up) and accrued 15,108 miles for the flight all up on Swissair's Qualiflyer program. Whilst in Perth a couple of days ago I met a chap who had flown to London on Qantas and not claimed any FF points! I advised him to contact Qantas, American, Cathay etc and see who would be prepared to credit his points if he joined up. Qantas was my first choice in this instance.

I must say though that a considerable disincentive to me joining the scheme is the $82.50 joining fee. Given that few international ff programs charge joining fees (many in fact give free miles for joining) I find it very hard for Qantas to justify this impost. In competitive terms it is unacceptable.

With respect to the 20,000 miles award in Australia I don't see any reason why things will change in the short term. I understand Northwest has 20,000 mile awards in North America - I think it probably more likely that United will drop their North American rates to compete with Northwest than raise their Australian redemption rates.

Overall there have been some improvements in Qantas's FF scheme (over short hops) and some backward steps (real increase in points/miles required for most domestic awards in Australia. I guess everyone will have to look at their circumstances and weigh up which is best for them. As the French say ' Chacun a son gout' (To each his own). It is noticable however that I am a member of about 20 frequent flyer programs but not Qantas FF.

cheers Peter

bruceb

I think the thread is getting to long - keep getting time out errors.... then multiple posts. Sorry! I have also been unable to edit messages (password error!).

Cheers... Bruce

ozstamps

WHAT A MESS THE SLOW FT HAS CREATED!!!!

Bruce, Richard, FF Found, Kunoichi, etc, may I please ask when things normalise if you might consider editing all dupes to a single period "." or mark as dupe etc? It is not just this thread. MrKey posted about 30 times literally on the Catman Buzz thread .. FT is Fritzed this evening. And this thread is so informative too! Seems a shame.

------------------
~ Glen ~

ffhound

Ozstamps
You fly across the pond quite a bit. Which program will you accrue miles with in future Qantas Frequent Flyer or United Mileage Plus - and why?

Interested to hear your opinion

cheers Peter

bruceb

Hi Addenda,

<<I know a few have mentioned this, but no-one seems to have spelt it out.
Will the current (admittedly, bargain) 30000 point Around Oz reward no longer be available under the new scheme or will it just be prohibitively expensive (points wise) as a result of the 10,000/stopover?>>

You can still do such a trip under the new system (and under the old for the next 18 months – although must be booked in the next 6 months). See the stopovers discussion on page 1 for more info on why.

I think the stopover rule is a much better system than most other programs (although it is a negative considering what is currently offered). Most others only offer point-to-point rewards on zonal rewards.

Also note that multiply stopovers can be taken within the oneworld RTW awards.

Hi RichardMEL,

Sorry about the UA mistake – I am an old 1K member – was going of my old statement and I used to get 500 miles for UA and Express but not shuttle.

Hi Ffhound,

<<Mind you if Qantas dropped its joining fee and had the right promotion (eg double points to London) I'd join.>>
These changes are aimed at existing members – although I take your point.
Right promotion – what about 20% bonus points on all credit card transfers.
<<With respect to the 20,000 miles award in Australia I don't see any reason why things will change in the short term. I understand Northwest has 20,000 mile awards in North America - I think it probably more likely that United will drop their North American rates to compete with Northwest than raise their Australian redemption rates.>>
I doubt it! But I could be wrong. Also note that Ansett sets the domestic redemption rates for Star carriers (actually it is a little more complicated than that…) – UAL could keep the rate low through subsidies.

<<Overall there have been some improvements in Qantas's FF scheme (over short hops) and some backward steps (real increase in points/miles required for most domestic awards in Australia. I guess everyone will have to look at their circumstances and weigh up which is best for them. As the French say ' Chacun a son gout' (To each his own). It is noticable however that I am a member of about 20 frequent flyer programs but not Qantas FF.>>

Actually people taking simple economy redemptions (which is the great masses of QF members) are on average better off. If you a higher tier then things are much better. There will be some other interesting stuff for platinums coming up soon!

Looks like we will have to convert you – just think of all those QTVC bonus partners, hotel partners, hire car companies, home loans, wine club, mobile deals. For the average Aussie on New Zealand you won’t find a broader program.

Now a question – What does everyone think about the upgrades certs… interested to get some feedback.

Cheers… Bruce

ozstamps

ffhound, transferring my Amex points and ANZ Qantas card points, to my existing QF balance, with the 20% bonus will leave me with about 1.5 million QF points, so I will need to be spending them not accruing them actually!

My fertile mind wonders whether QF will get into a Starwood/Hilton type deal where I can move a chunk of these over. Any such deal out there that I can use strictly QF FF points to move somewhere else? I can do that right now with the Amex MR points, to Air NZ (1=1) Starwood/Sheraton, Hilton (1=1) and somewhere else I forget.

Bruce .. the mile 500 Sh!ttle minimum payment is very new, and most current 1Ks would likely not be aware of it!

Where do I access the upgrade table using points? I'd like to see what they are doing there.

------------------
~ Glen ~

bruceb

Hi ozstamps,

<<Where do I access the upgrade table using points? I'd like to see what they are doing there.>>
http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/...edeemingPoints

Goto the bottom of the page - you will see the number of points / upgrade certs required by zone.

Cheers... Bruce

ozstamps

Thanks Bruce. WHAT a lot of reading. Phew. Need a beer now .. took me an hour!

------------------
~ Glen ~

bruceb

Hi All,

The decision to switch from kms to miles as a form of calculating the number of points members earn for flying is getting a bit of tongue-in-cheek flak this morning in the press. The decision brings QF inline with our international partners/competitors. I thought I would give you more of an overview on why just about all the airlines use miles.

Firstly it is important to have a basic understanding of how you can earn points for flying,

First choice is how are points are distributed for flying – miles versus kilometres. Although what currency you use to distribute points has nothing to do with the worth or value of the points. A good example of this is the recently announced changes to the Qantas’ programme (which includes moving from kilometres to miles). What is the outcome? They will give away more points for the same amount of flying. So a mile is not necessarily worth more than a kilometre.

Award pricing (burning),

The critical thing (as discussed in many previous posts) is how earn rates interact with burn rates – how many times do I have to fly a route to get a free redemption or the % of a free trip earned for each paid one.

Now think about partner pricing (for flying on QF or AN),

Now given the above you would think when negotiating points pricing for partner agreements you would consider not the currency but the relationship between the earning and burning. Let me give you an example of what I am getting to:

Lets take Ansett and United:
United: minimum earn 500 points, 100% earn in economy, miles, tier bonuses, cabin bonuses
Ansett: no minimum earn, 70% earn in most economy seats, kms, cabin bonuses

Net impact is you would on average get more points (regardless of currency) for the same distance flown on United when comparing to Ansett.

Ansett then prices their rewards with “their earn” rates in mind – that is they consider the number of trips to get a free one and how the number of points compares with dollars values charged of these routes.

Then finally they get around to negotiating a rate for United – United says something like “you guys are using kms we are using miles so our redemption rates should be 2/3s of yours” – conveniently forgetting the fact that they give away more points for the same amount of flying (so how can their currency be worth 1.5 of Ansett’s). So interrelationship between the two programs gets doubly uncompetitive (earn rates and burn rates are set independent of each other across the airlines). This becomes plainly evident when United’s base redemption in the US is 25,000 points but you can get a redemption of Ansett for 20,000 – cheaper than in their home market!

The same example can be done in reverse - that is how much it costs an AN member to get a domestic award on UA. You will see the AN rates are much higher than the UA member rates.

The impact is that airlines in Australia and New Zealand (QF, AN and NZ) subsidies rewards to all their partner airlines. All of them have had the wool pooled over their eyes in relation to redemption pricing for partners.

This is why I think you will see UAL’s rates for redemptions on Ansett go up (just as soon as AN realise they are subsidising the UAL programme).

Once you are all operating in the same currency you get rid of most of these problems. You can then use your partner’s redemption table when your members want to redeem a flight on your partner (no need to keep a separate table for every partner – just refer your FF members to the partners table).

Hopefully this gives you some insight into the complexities when partner airlines operate in different currencies and one of the reasons Qantas has chosen to align to the rest of the world and move to frequent flyer miles. It wouldn’t be a problem if only one partner operated in miles but when you consider BA, AA and CX all operate in miles it makes QF the odd one out.

Cheers… Bruce

[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 03-16-2001).]