ozflier

It seems to me that ,at long last , someone in Australia is going to compete with United's excellent Mileage Plus frequent flyer program.Poor old Ansett will be left at the gate if it doesn't pick up its act.
It will be interesting to see the level of availability of upgrade seats on QF as its alright to have all these awards but no use if there is no increase in inventory.Just look at the almost neglible chance of a domestic upgrade .
The only downside is the devaluation of the worth of credit card earned QFF points.
Ozflier

whughes3

Why would anyone in Australia want/need to compete with UA MP? Noone else outside the US sees the need to; why is Australia different? In fact, given the current financial plight of UA, and the dwindling competition in the US market, it's easier to see UA modifying their scheme in the direction of world norms. Have a close look at some of the UA forums here: they are full of people complaining that 'elite' status is meaningless because so many people have it, that upgrades are all but impossible to get etc. etc...doesn't sound like paradise to me!

BTW, previously in this thread I stated that the new QF scheme would make me better off; I'm afraid I have to take that back (can't add up, dammit!). In fact I finish up almost exactly where I do now..and I'm better off than most!

(See also the other thread I started in this group).

bruceb

Hi Kremmen,

<<1) That doesn't do any good for those who've been earning their points over the last 5+ years at a much lower rate.>>

That is why (unlike other airlines) Qantas has gving you 18 months to use your old points at the old redemption rates (6 months to book and a further 355 days to travel).

<<2) You're not being fair here. My RTW's are a mixture of long and short hauls. You're effectively saying that a "normal" mixture is some long hauls with some short hauls and a whole lot more short hauls thrown in too. I'm not sure it would even work then, since those short hauls are worth very few tier credits in discount economy.>>

I get your point, but all I am saying is that on average members do a lot more domestic trips for every international one (including RTW trips) - I think it is something in the order of 10 to 1 (QF flying). Although people on this forum may be more inclined towards international travel.

Did you do the benchmark SYD-MEL versus LAX-SFO. It takes 15 return trips in discount economy to retain entry level on QF (17.5 rt trips to attain for the first time), 7.5 rt trips in full economy, 5 trips in business - all to retain. On UA it takes 25 rt trips in any class to attain or retain on LAX-SFO. Higher levels are at the same % difference.


<<3) Similar to point 1, people in this country have been measuring distances in km for, in some cases, all their lives. Putting distances in miles is a pain, since we already know them in km. Put a table saying zone 2 is 2001-5400 miles in front of Australians, and I suspect you will find they will generally have no idea what that means in practical terms. If the table said 3220-8690km, it would be much more useful.>>

I am not sure most members will know how far SYD-MEL, SYD-PER, SYD-CHC, SYD-DPS, etc are in km. So I am not sure I agree that providing a table in kms and miles would make any difference. This has always been a problem! If you look in the old QF manual they have a list which gives you the zone the redemption falls into. In September when you get the new manual you will most likely see (like in the current manual) a list of city pairs and the redemption cost for a return trip - I think this is the easiest way (distance, bonuses, etc all become irrelevant).

Anyway as said before I think you will find the table in September will list the zones in kms and miles – for all those with a metric milemarker computer in their head – excuse the pun

Cheers… Bruce

bruceb

Hi ozflier,

<<The only downside is the devaluation of the worth of credit card earned QFF points.
Ozflier>>

I did a small credit card comparison somewhere in this "massive" thread.

Existing points can be used on existing tables.

Actually if you do the worldwide comparison on credit card earns you will find QF's program "miles" ahead

US$1=AUD$2
Plus for some programs (QTVC) you get 2 points per AUD spent OS.
That means I get 4 points per US$ when in the US versus 1 point per US$ for US programs. Now do the comparison of spend required on QF cards versus overseas program cards to get to the same reward... no contest.

Cheers... Bruce

RichardMEL

bruceb - your UA example is flawed. UA also allows qualification on segments to favour those exact sort of road warriors crammed into Sh*ttle every week. In this case 30 segments will get you Premier, or 15 r/t trips - compares much more reasonably to QF.

Look, we can all twist the numbers to suit our own particular biases(is that a word? ) until the cows come home.. I'm not sure how productive it is really. Each of us here has their own specific travel pattern. I am in the RTW book myself but as I surmised earlier in this thread, and as bruceb confirmed (thanks, Bruce... can I get a job with QF now in the Loyalty area? ) the majority of QF members fly mostly domestic hauls.

Just a small comment on the upgrade options - I too am concerned about this. Classic case in point. Most of my flying is to North America. QF blocks award redemption in F and J (or they did last time I checked) on most of the transpac flights. So, how likely is it that an upgrade seat would be easy to obtain on a transpac like SYD-LAX or MEL-LAX? Perhaps not very easy at all.

About the supposed issue with getting upgrades out of UA because of all the elites hanging around... hmm I have a RTW next week and have managed to confirm upgraded seats on all of the requested long hauls, even with decent seat allocations. And before you all say "yes, but you're a 1K and at the top of the tree" - I had no problems as a Premier Executive either. Perhaps that just says that UA are more willing to give away seats - well that's their issue isn't it? I'm just glad I don't have to sit down the back on another transpac or transatlantic flight

And a final thought which applies to both alliances equally - what would be a *boon* is an upgrade award that spanned alliance members. For example, if I want to fly SYD-DFW I'll have to fly QF over the pacific and then AA out of LAX. Wouldn't it be nice if I could use my QF upgrade credits to also grab F on that AA sector? Of course it would be a nightmare to actually *do* I have no illusions - carriers would have to coperate on availabilities, and of course you'd open up eachother's seats to eachother's pax, and thus make the base of members wanting that J or F seat that much bigger, but the benefit is still there. UA members can upgrade some LH fares/flights(not that it's worth it, but that's a different issue ) so it is being done (sort of). Does QF have any upgrade agreements with any partner airlines?

------------------
UA 1K MEL
A Star Alliance(tm) Member.

Kunoichi

Hi bruceb,

>>Why don't we list all backwards and old fashioned countries that use miles for FF programs:
1. USA
2. Canada
3. England
4. Germany
5. Hong Kong
6. Singapore
7. Japan
8. France
9. Italy
10. Spain
11. Switzerland
12. South Africa
13. Mexico
14. South Korea
15. Mainland China
16. Thailand
17+. etc etc etc etc<<

Yes, they're all backward and outdated if they're using such an antiquated system. Time to step into the 21st century, not live in the past.

>>Did I leave out any other "backwards" countries? I think you will find it harder to list countries that operate FF programs in kms than vice versa.<<

That doesn't matter what the other countries do. We should not use miles because we don't learn miles here in Australia. We use the metric system.

We should not be foced into using a system that we don't understand, as we are not taught this system in school.

Qantas is taking a huge step backwards by starting to use a system that is antiquated in this country.

How many schools are going to start teaching miles, just because Qantas decided to take a step back in time and use an old fashioned system?

None, at my rought estimation.

It's pretty dumb to have a system that no regular Australian understands, just because people in other countries use it!

>>As you can see mileage for FF programs is not an American only thing.<<

It's pretty much because of America that it's used. I'm sure that one Mexican airline used KMs, too, because of the huge kerfufle about them giving points in KMs, not Miles, for AA points... I've also heard rumours that BA will be going metric, too.

So why does Qantas feel it necessary to take a step backwards by changing KMs (what people in Australia understand) to Miles (what we don't understand as it's not used in this country)?

>>Also it is a bit hard for an International airline to shut out the rest of the world - "Pauline" style...<<

That's an idiotic statment if I've ever heard one. Do you really believe that the current Qantas "shut out the rest of the world" because it's in KMs? You really actually believe that Qantas has has its head burried in the sand just because it uses the measurment system of its home country?

>>We could just stick our head in the sand and pretend the rest of the world will switch there FF programs to kms!<<

They should. But even if they don't, there's no point in changing by taking steps backwards.

How about we all use Cubits instead, or some other magical 'units' that no-one knows about in Australia.

*sigh*

It's just dumb to use a system that Australians don't use!!

Common sense doesn't prevail by changing KMs to Miles!

------------------
Kun-chan...

PS - Can you go and have a look at these URLs and tell me what you think at [email protected]?

http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/ax_images/
http://milesbar.com/join.asp?id=MBG1198
http://www.emailcash.com.au/join.asp?refer=C60997

BTW - Can you also have a look at my latest articles at:
http://www.themestream.com/articles/237806.html

bruceb

Hi Kunoichi,

<<That doesn't matter what the other countries do. We should not use miles because we don't learn miles here in Australia. We use the metric system.>>

90& of the counrties I list were metric - the issue is why do you have to learn miles? Do you know the distance from SYD-HKG in kms? All you want to know is how many points it takes to get a reward. As discussed previously this will be listed in metric and city pair combinations - so you don't need to know kms or miles to any destinations.

As for what other countries do - it does make a difference. One global currency is a huge bonus for Aussie members - as discussed previously many members exploit the AN/UA metric/miles differences. This will make Aussie points worth the same as all other major FF currencies.

Redemptions on other carriers are becomming increasing important to more members.

<<How many schools are going to start teaching miles, just because Qantas decided to take a step back in time and use an old fashioned system?>>

Makes no difference on the measurement side - as disucussed above. You do not need to know distances in either kms or miles.

<<I'm sure that one Mexican airline used KMs, too, because of the huge kerfufle about them giving points in KMs, not Miles, for AA points... I've also heard rumours that BA will be going metric, too.>>

Why did BA just rename their program "BA MILES"?

I don't follow too many mexican FF programs - but I am unsure of any that operate in kms.

<<That's an idiotic statment if I've ever heard one. Do you really believe that the current Qantas "shut out the rest of the world" because it's in KMs? You really actually believe that Qantas has has its head burried in the sand just because it uses the measurment system of its home country?>>

As discussed previously - you now have one currency that works/worth the same across all international airlines. If you only travel domestically it is not important. What happens if you want an upgrade on AA or a flight from HKG to BKK on CX - do you duplicate every partners table in a different currency - what happens when they change their tables?

Cheers... Bruce

bruceb

Hi RichardMEL,

<<your UA example is flawed. UA also allows qualification on segments to favour those exact sort of road warriors crammed into Sh*ttle every week. In this case 30 segments will get you Premier, or 15 r/t trips - compares much more reasonably to QF.>>

Ok... my mistake - I also thought of one other possible mistake - have UAL duplicated the AA points scheme for higher classes?

<<thanks, Bruce... can I get a job with QF now in the Loyalty area?>>

Ask Darren

<<Just a small comment on the upgrade options - I too am concerned about this. Classic case in point. Most of my flying is to North America. QF blocks award redemption in F and J (or they did last time I checked) on most of the transpac flights. So, how likely is it that an upgrade seat would be easy to obtain on a transpac like SYD-LAX or MEL-LAX? Perhaps not very easy at all.>>

I am not aware of any blocking - transpac flights can be very full in J - for redemption or paying pax. Would recommend the flights through AKL if you are after J redemptions or upgrades.

<<Perhaps that just says that UA are more willing to give away seats - well that's their issue isn't it? I'm just glad I don't have to sit down the back on another transpac or transatlantic flight >>

QF have some of the highest internal service levels in the industry.

<<And a final thought which applies to both alliances equally - what would be a *boon* is an upgrade award that spanned alliance members. For example, if I want to fly SYD-DFW I'll have to fly QF over the pacific and then AA out of LAX. Wouldn't it be nice if I could use my QF upgrade credits to also grab F on that AA sector? Of course it would be a nightmare to actually *do* I have no illusions - carriers would have to coperate on availabilities, and of course you'd open up eachother's seats to eachother's pax, and thus make the base of members wanting that J or F seat that much bigger, but the benefit is still there. UA members can upgrade some LH fares/flights(not that it's worth it, but that's a different issue ) so it is being done (sort of). Does QF have any upgrade agreements with any partner airlines?>>

No agreements yet (as QF has never had international upgrades). I think using the certs on AA will be hard - but it is likely that point upgrades will be possible - all this still needs to be sorted out. This was the reason for moving to the same currency - so that you could use the other airlines redemption table. Give a little time to get the changes through the QF network

Cheers... Bruce

RichardMEL

As far as I can see UA has matched AA. Paid C class - 25% bonus, Paid F class - 50% bonus - I assume this is what you meant.




------------------
UA 1K MEL
A Star Alliance(tm) Member.

adenda

Darren (if you're still here),

Thanks for your response.

I just read your response and it seems I don't quite understand some aspects of the new scheme.

I thought under the new scheme a SYD-MEL(stopover)-WLG(stopover)-SYD itinerary would have each sector tallied as if a return flight - on the basis that there are no O/W awards anymore.

Am I to understand that a multi-sector itinerary is still calculated by adding the individual one-way sector mileages and then adding 10,000 points per stopover (excluding ultimate destination)?

If this is correct then the example I posted earlier is not quite as ludicrous.

Please confirm

Regards

Adam

bruceb

Hi RichardMEL:

<<As far as I can see UA has matched AA. Paid C class - 25% bonus, Paid F class - 50% bonus - I assume this is what you meant.>>

Not exactly... I was refering to the status point system that AA introduced to get elite status. That is you can get elite status in three ways (for those that travel in bus class - you can move up to elite status faster):
1. Segments
2. miles flown
3. points earned (which are derived from miles flown by class)

Cheers... Bruce

bruceb

Hi adenda,

<<I thought under the new scheme a SYD-MEL(stopover)-WLG(stopover)-SYD itinerary would have each sector tallied as if a return flight - on the basis that there are no O/W awards anymore. >>

No - it is worked out as one trip (unlike some other airlines) - (only if you want to).

<<Am I to understand that a multi-sector itinerary is still calculated by adding the individual one-way sector mileages and then adding 10,000 points per stopover (excluding ultimate destination)?>>

Correct. So SYD-MEL-WLG-SYD works out to be 3428 miles or 5524 kms round trip - this puts it in zone 2 (30,000 points in economy). You get one destination free (MEL or WLG) or you could fly the route without any stopover penalty if it meant getting a better connection through MEL - without a stopover in MEL. If you want to break your journey in MEL (I think it is by more than 8 hrs) then the stopover fee applies. So you can do SYD-MEL (4 day stopover) MEL-WLG (7 day stopover) WLG-SYD for 40,000 points in economy. I am sure you can work out many more combos...

Cheers... Bruce

Koru Flyer

Bruce,

If it is an 8 hour stop-over rule. How would the following work.

Say you flew MEL/SYD/BNE to CHC/AKL/WLG landing at say midnight as many of the trans-tasmans do. Does that mean you have 8 hours from that midnight, so are forced to catch the earliest connexion out to avoid the 10,000 points limit or are QF going to be reasonable?

Also one would have thought that QF would keep to the standard that connexions are 4 hours for domestic and 24 hours for international. Where did the 8 hour logic come from?

Mark

RichardMEL

bruceb - No, as far as I know UA has not matched AA with the fare credits type system applying to the top tier. I understand they took it away, or at least made it possible to reach Exec Platinum(or whatever it is called over there) via miles and segments again as the other US majors didn't follow.

To reach 1K on UA it is:

100,000 paid flown miles
or
100 segments

Actually I think LH Miles & More has a better mix of both worlds: They keep the mileage requirements for top elite level (Senator) the same, but give you generous (2x, 3x) bonus miles for paid class of service that count as status miles. It is a pity the rest of the operation is so subpar! D'OH!


------------------
RichardMEL, UA 1K
A Star Alliance Member.

Kremmen

I wonder if Darren will be back anytime, or whether he's joined the electronic black hole of Qantas, from whence messages come rarely and several months after they entered?