massive QF FF programme changes

Old Mar 15, 2001, 4:56 am
  #31  
 
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Kunoichi - I believe the 5,000 points for paper tickets where e tix is available is in terms of award tickets only. ie: if you ask for a QF award ticket MEL-SYD and you demand it on paper, they're going to make you pay for it with 5,000 miles. I do not believe it related to paid for tix that you get from a t/a or whoever. Bruceb? Did I read it right?

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Old Mar 15, 2001, 5:09 am
  #32  
 
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I think what Qantas are trying to do with the changes is reward fliers more and reward those who make points with credit cards, etc less. Fliers with silver status or above will be earning more points even on discount economy fares - while the value of all those points earned from credit cards / etc is much less. I think Qantas have a large number of frequent fliers now who never actually fly Qantas (except on reward tickets), and the changes are an attempt to rewards those who do fly more (particularly on high revenue tickets).
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Old Mar 15, 2001, 5:10 am
  #33  
 
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Hi Kunoichi,

<<No Account Service Fee" Pft. Instead of an "account service fee", everyone gets service fees for:>>

A lot of these fees existed previously (as well as the account service fee) card fee, reissue, cancellation, etc. They were restated to make sure you are aware of them. The new fees can be easily avoided late booking fee and change of date/time (note change of route/name was an existing fee). Do a quick check on some of the other programs and I think you will find these quite reasonable.

<< This, if it is as it sounds to me, REALLY concerns me. If my travel agent gives me a paper ticket, instead of an E-Ticket because s/he thought it was easier, then *I* get slugged 5000 points>>

You can only book redemption tickets directly with Qantas, therefore you wont have this problem with your travel agent. The telesales staff will advise you if an e-ticket is available, then if you request a paper ticket you will be advised of the charge. This fee has been introduced for three reasons; firstly, e-tickets are subject to less abuse, secondly, they are easy to change and lastly, they are cheaper.

<<Tier Credits are easier to get? Maybe for people who fly as part of their jobs, or who are rich!>>

For everyone look at SYD-MEL and SYD-PER compare the old and the new table by class (you will find economy travellers receive the biggest increases)

<<Even if I flew 13,000 return, once a year, I'd only get 120 and be wiped!>>

Not anymore that is the reason for lifetime tier credits. Also you will now earn an upgrade every 250 tier credits regardless of how long it takes you to get 250 tier credits. In your case you will get an upgrade every 2 years or so.

Cheers Bruce
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Old Mar 15, 2001, 5:23 am
  #34  
 
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RichardMEL,
<<Now I made a boo boo above with my comment about lifetime status. I thought I read it was 7,500 credits, but it's 14,000 >>
Yes. 7,000 for lifetime Silver and 14,000 for lifetime Gold. Means you can always go above these levels on an annual basis but never below. You may find some other interesting things been done around lifetime tier credits its a new thing for them so give them a little bit of time to get it bedded down. Also note that tier credit upgrades are calculated from your lifetime tier credit level (so those that earn a low rates still get rewarded for long term loyalty).
<<double upgrades>>
No sorry this is not allowed one class of upgrade only. Y to J or J to P.

<<Kunoichi - I believe the 5,000 points for paper tickets where e tix is available is in terms of award tickets only. >>

Yep only for award tickets and only where Qantas can offer you an e-ticket.

Ozzie,

<< Fliers with silver status or above will be earning more points even on discount economy fares - while the value of all those points earned from credit cards / etc is much less. >>

You need to consider both sides of the equation (earning and burning) at once for an accurate picture of how flying rewards work (I use number of trips to get one free as a proxy for flying value). For other rewards points sources just look at the cost in points short-haul up, medium-haul constant and long-haul down.

Cheers Bruce
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Old Mar 15, 2001, 7:15 am
  #35  
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I am generally happy with the new rules, except for redemptions on very short flights, for example Mel or Syd to Canberra. I used to be able to get Biz Cl. for 11250 points, but will now cost me 30000 - a huge jump.

Will miss the 11,000kms "Around-Oz" award for 37,500 points in Biz Class.

[This message has been edited by LHR/MEL/Europe FF (edited 03-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by LHR/MEL/Europe FF (edited 03-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by LHR/MEL/Europe FF (edited 03-15-2001).]
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Old Mar 15, 2001, 12:56 pm
  #36  
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Okay, here is my question which I do not think has been asked or answered.

When QF shifted to OW and tier credits they sent each elite level flyer a new card and also extended the life of the elite level by around 12 months irrespective of how many miles/km/points you had and whether you are going to requalify. Nice gesture as there was no way I would have requalified.

So does anyone (Bruce?) know what QF are doing with elite levels this time around and how are they rolling the changeover in terms of qualification dates.

i.e. are they going to be reasonable and send out a new card with the dates extended or just send out the card with the current dates.

This is somewhat important to me anyway as the changes take place on 15/9 and my silver status expires end 31/10!

Mark
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Old Mar 15, 2001, 1:32 pm
  #37  
 
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LHR/MEL/Europe FF,

<<I used to be able to get Biz Cl. for 11250 points, but will now cost me 30000 - a huge jump.>>

Correct, but this has been offset by a bigger increase in the number of points you earn on these routes. For example most economy members would earn 330 points for a return trip SYD-CBR under the old system and 2000 points for return under the new system.

Koru Flyer,

<<So does anyone (Bruce?) know what QF are doing with elite levels this time around and how are they rolling the changeover in terms of qualification dates.>>

I am unaware of any changes to recognition program that are negative that is all are positive for members (more tier credits for same flying and low qualification levels for some). Therefore it will be rolled through without any freezing or complimentary periods.

I do know that members that have anniversary dates somewhere between now and 15 September will be reviewed under the most favourable option for you in other words you should get the best of both worlds. New cards will be sent before 15th September based on your current status. You will continue to earn tier credits under the current zonal table until 15th September no change.

<<This is somewhat important to me anyway as the changes take place on 15/9 and my silver status expires end 31/10! >>

You will receive the new card, but it will still expire on the same date - unless you meet the re-qualification level (600 points under the new system).

Cheers Bruce
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Old Mar 15, 2001, 3:38 pm
  #38  
 
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I was most concerned about the 5000 point penalty for changing and award flight date.I have a heap of tickets which I will not use untilwell into next year. i dont have a clue WHEN i will use them.I called the service centre and they told me that any ticket or booking issued BEFORE the changeover on 15th Sept will NOT iincur the penalty so it is my belief that anyone contemplating a flight next year get the ticket issued before then.
I also asked if the points (as they are in kms) will be reduced by 40% to miles . they said definitely NO.
bruce can U confirm this..?????
if that is true then anyone booking an around oz fare can use it till 15th sept 2002!!!!
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Old Mar 15, 2001, 4:11 pm
  #39  
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Tinky .. think your 1=1 question has been covered several times above. You lose nothing, but indeed gain 20% on card transfers.

Good point about the round OZ 37,500 J tix if that in fact is correct, that if booked before before Sept thay are good til Sept 2002. What are the "new rules" on those? A QF girl was telling me it is now capped at 4 stopovers or something within the 11,000 kms?

Thanks for informed input Bruce .. nice to see someone with inside info taking the time to cover many of the questions here.

------------------
~ Glen ~
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Old Mar 15, 2001, 4:24 pm
  #40  
 
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Hi tinkybelle,

<<I was most concerned about the 5000 point penalty for changing and award flight date.>>

For change of date/time the fee is 2500. The existing fee of 5000 points remains for change of name, class, route, etc.

<<I have a heap of tickets which I will not use untilwell into next year.>>

Why (just perplexed as to the reasoning!)? This is what the fee was introduced so that members would only book when they were sure of their travel plans - this is an effort to improve service levels for other members.

<<they told me that any ticket or booking issued BEFORE the changeover on 15th Sept will NOT iincur the penalty so it is my belief that anyone contemplating a flight next year get the ticket issued before then.>>

Correct.

<<I also asked if the points (as they are in kms) will be reduced by 40% to miles . they said definitely NO.>>

Correct. Points stay as points (no reduction in current balances). See above post on earning points for implications on the number of points earned under new versus old.

<<if that is true then anyone booking an around oz fare can use it till 15th sept 2002!!!>>

You can only book 355 days in advance - but yes you can book an around oz fare up to early Sept 2002 (must be booked before 15th Sept 2001). This long lead time was setup so that QF could meet the maximum number of redemptions under the old system (as points were earned under the old system) - although I am sure some sectors will be hard to get.

Cheers... Bruce
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Old Mar 15, 2001, 5:04 pm
  #41  
 
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Hmm, the brouchure doesn't say that those fees are for rewards. It's in it's own little section, and I looked a few times on the page, and it doesn't mention that at all. Qantas should really fix that up. -_-

Thanks for the info ....

Also, about the tier credits, it only mentions 'life time' for non-Bronze people... and it doesn't mention that the once-a-year reset has gone. It's very confusing.

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PS - Can you go and have a look at these URLs and tell me what you think at [email protected]?

http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/ax_images/
http://milesbar.com/join.asp?id=MBG1198
http://www.emailcash.com.au/join.asp?refer=C60997

BTW - Can you also have a look at my latest articles at:
http://www.themestream.com/articles/237806.html
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Old Mar 15, 2001, 6:29 pm
  #42  
 
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I agree with Kunoichi that it is a bit misleading, but I suppose it is implied that the fees are all related to FF redemptions rather than actual paid tix. I am sure future revisions will correct this. Overall it's a pretty good brochure and clear for just about everything - for a public release I reckon it's pretty good.

(and looking into the terms and conditions the upgrade issue is made clear as per what bruceb said).

So if no balances are touched, this means that it is a bonus to those with decent FF point balances at QF I should think. ie: my 30,000 points now (to make up a number, I think I only have 150 odd in actual fact ) is worth more when translated to the new system rather than the old (IMHO anyway).

It's good that QF didn't decide to adjust everyone's balances into mileage equivalents.

One note I do not see any QF fare classes listed that do not qualify for mileage, unlike quite a few on partner airlines (interstind tweak of AA Q class on transatlantic flights). Does that suggest even the cheapest web specials and others will accrue miles at the usual rate? That may well be interresting to see if that stays or not.



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Old Mar 15, 2001, 6:32 pm
  #43  
 
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Hi Kunoichi,

<<Hmm, the brouchure doesn't say that those fees are for rewards. It's in it's own little section, and I looked a few times on the page, and it doesn't mention that at all. >>

I guess they think members will look at the FF members guide in a reward sense only. Seeing you don't have to be a frequent flyer to fly on Qantas, it would be a little silly to charge FF members a fee for buying tickets.

<<Also, about the tier credits, it only mentions 'life time' for non-Bronze people... and it doesn't mention that the once-a-year reset has gone. It's very confusing.>>

Below is the from the QF webpage on lifetime tire credits
"This is the ultimate reward for Frequent Flyers who give the greatest support to Qantas over a number of years. ** We will keep a tally of all the Status credits accumulated during the life of your membership. Status credits will be added to any tier credits accumulated since their introduction in September 1998. As soon as you have enough Status credits, Silver or Gold recognition will be yours for life, regardless of how often you then fly."

Note that your tier credits will still reset on an annual basis (for your normal status - Silver, Gold and Platinum). BUT QF will now start recording your lifetime tier credits as well as annual tier credits (they are the same thing, just one resets annually) - from this number they will issue upgrades and lifetime status (lifetime silver and gold). I think this is similar to other lifetime programs. Note that lifetime tier credits will be calculated from September 1998 (so some members will already be a long way towards lifetime status).

Cheers Bruce
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Old Mar 15, 2001, 8:25 pm
  #44  
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Hi

I have posted the following analysis elsewhere but thought it woudl be appropriate here also.

******

I stated earlier that flying long distance one would be substantially worse off. This will depend upon the class flown.

Let's take several long distance trips to arrive at an average (full fare economy)

Trip Kms (points) Miles (roughly)

Melbourne to Los Angeles 12,743 7,900
Melbourne to London 16,897 10,476
Melbourne to Tokyo 8,175 5,068
Melbourne to Singapore 6,042 3,746

Totals 43,857 27,190
Return trips 87,714 54,380

Equally let's look at some typical redemptions (economy)

Trip Points required Miles required

Melbourne to Perth 30,000 30,000
Melbourne to Auckland 30,000 30.000
Melbourne to Los Angeles 100,000 80,000
Melbourne to London 130,000 110,000

Total 290,000 250,000

Using the above, previously had one flown the four flights shown above one would have been
87,714/290,000 * 100 = 30.24% of the way to being able to fly the four flights listed.

Now one is 54,380/250,000 * 100 = 21.75% of the way to being able to fly the four flights only.

Now to be fair this is predicated on one flying full economy. Had one previously flown discount economy one would have accrued only 70% of the points thus one would have only been 70% * 30.24% of the way towards a free flight = 21.68%.

The net effect is that if you fly discount economy long distance not much will change but if you fly full fare economy long distance you will be worse off.


To some extent the argument over whether the new scheme is better than the old scheme misses the point. I'd prefer to steer away from the old/new argument at any rate as I chose not to participate in the old scheme (Ansett had some advantages that Qantas did not) and the new scheme does not particularly attract me.

My approach has always been to compare Qantas's scheme with the alternatives. Let's look at the trip across the pond namely Melbourne to Los Angeles and compare United's Mileage Plus with Qantas frequent flyer.

Firstly the following airlines fly MEL-LAX

United, Qantas, Air New Zealand

Let's assume for practical puposes that we are going to buy a discount ticket for say $1,000 (discount economy) and we want to see how far this will get us towards another trip on the same route. All airlines have matched each other's prices.

Let's start with accrual

Flying United or Air New Zealand and accruing the miles on United Mileage plus one accrues at the rate of 100% in discount economy. Ditto for flying Qantas and accruing on Qantas frequent flyer.

Miles accrued = about 15,800.

Now for the redemption - 80,000 miles on Qantas and only 60,000 miles on United's Mileage Plus (flying either Air New Zealand or United).

Thus had you flown Qantas you would only be 15,800/80,000 * 100 = 19.75% of the way towards a free ticket to LA again. If you fly United or Air New Zealand you are 15,800/60,000 * 100 = 26.33% of the way towards a free flight.

Looking at domestic redemptions the difference becomes more stark. You require 30,000 miles for a Melbourne to Perth round trip with QFF but only 20,000 Mileage Plus miles. Our 15,800 miles gets you 79% of the way to Perth but Qantas only gets you 52.66% of the way. Is it surprising that I choose to fly Air New Zealand and accrue my miles on United's Mileage Plus?

Comparing United's Mileage Plus with Qantas's Frequent Flyer it is evident that whilst accrual rates (long distance) are broadly similar, it costs far more miles to redeem for flights with Qantas & Partners than it does with United, Ansett & partner airlines.

Qantas's old scheme did have some unique attractive features namely relatively cheap business flights within Australia (37,500 points) and that wonderful round Australia award (economy 30,000 points, business 37,500 points). These attractive features are not present in the new scheme. Qantas has remoulded its scheme to be more like its international competitors however it is not competitive on long distances with the likes of United's Mileage Plus.

Lest I be accused of only looking at one aspect of Qantas's new program please compare a single long distance route namely Melbourne to Perth and accruel on QFF as against Swissair's Qualiflyer (a Qantas partner).

A round trip Mel-Per is about 5,412 km returns or about 3,355 miles return. Either program gets you 100% accruel in discount economy now.

Redemption rates for economy tickets MEL-PER on Qantas are as follows - Qantas 30,000 miles, Swissair 20,000 miles. Business class Swissair - 25,000 miles, Qantas - 45,000 miles.

Ansett would be wise to transfer its memebers to United Mielage Plus which would immediately make its scheme more competitive than Qantas's.

cheers Peter




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Old Mar 15, 2001, 9:19 pm
  #45  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Thanks Bruce for all your clarification. It has been great. :-) I am in NYC at present and only have the e-mail which doesn't really go into much detail, as does the web site.
I have a question regarding RTW redemption. I was planning to redeem a British Airways zone 9, which (apparently) allows unlimited travel and stopovers on all non-codeshare British Airways flights. The only restriction is the amount of time your go thru LHR. Under the new Qantas scheme will in be possible to get a RTW redeemed ticket, or will it not be worth it with the new 10,000 point stopover fee? Should I redeem my points prior to September 15? I was hoping to make the most of my points.

I also have a huge amount of points that will expire in August next year - does that mean they will not expire now?

Again, thanks so much for your online contribution. Qantas has not been entirely clear on the changes.

Cheers,

Aaron

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