ozstamps

Bruce ... good info on the AN/UA deal, yes right now I can get AN rewards dirt ceap as I have masses of UA points -- they keep throwing 300% bonusus at us! Hope their scale does not change!

Aarono I emailed at his request the process for editing posts here, so hope he finds time soon to do that!

And I'll seek input from others again on this:



------------------
~ Glen ~

ffhound

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ffhound:
[B] I don't agree Bruce. Because frequent flyer miles are required to be recorded as a liability in the accounting records, Ansett will have negotiated a rate per mile with United. It would not surprise me if they have used the industry standard $US0.02 per mile. It is likely the contract was written in $US. Once a year United probably draws our its chequebook and pays Ansett for the rewards redeemed on United miles. Thus Ansett gets effectively paid for those 'free' seats it is providing.

With the exchange rate the way it is, those 2 cents are valuable. Consider my trip to Perth last week. I redeemed 20,000 miles. Ansett will probably get paid $US400 for that flight which is a tidy $A800 in revenue. Even if the contract was written in Australian dollars, Ansett are still getting revenue for these seats and that helps the bottom line.

I don't think Ansett is in any hurry to renegotiate their rates. The redemption rates are also quite attractive relative to Qantas. 20,000 miles gets you a round trip ticket anywhere in Australia. 25,000 miles gets you from Australia to Bali or Fiji (20,000 from Sydney!). 10,000 miles gets you from Melbourne to Sydney. These are attractive redemption rates yet still provide an attractive revenue stream for Ansett.

Here are the United rates
http://www.ual.com/site/primary/1,10017,1184,00.html

My bet is that Qantas will be forced to reduce its redemption rates. By its own admission it has adopted the mile as its standard currency and consumers will compare how many miles they will need on Qantas with how many miles they need on United or another airline. Granted in certain circumstances one can earn more miles flying Qantas but not all the time.

Aside from this, consumers will also see that a return flight to Canberra from Melbourne is only 9,000 points whereas on Qantas it costs 20,000 miles! Ouch! If one has a choice of a Qantas linked credit card or an Ansett linked credit card it is evident that the Ansett linked card will provide cheaper flights than Qantas for flights within Australia.

Eg lets say I spend $30,000 dollars on my credit card. I could get either 30,000 GR points or 30,000 Qantas miles. Which are more valuable? Just about every domestic award is the same number of points/miles or cheaper on Ansett.


cheers Peter

aarono

Hi Bruce,

Can you tell me where the OneWorld redemption tables are? I can only find the main Qantas one?

Do you have any tips for making the most of your points - redemption wise?

Thanks,

Aaron

bruceb

..

[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 04-30-2001).]

ozstamps

Watch it. Randy will suspend you both for a week for providing TOO much useful FF info.

I saw Randy type somewhere only in the past few days (thibk it was on Northwest chat session after Russ Hinkley left) that a US airline earns from their FF only about .8 a mile flown average, but sells points to Hilton, etc for US1.25c a mile, so those deals are more profitable to it than FLYING people who they then need to give awards to, upgrades, and spend HEAPS on admin to look after etc.

Brice is clearly in this field, and his thoughts definitely have some weight.

MY take is that Ansett will match the QF scheme within months. Sad but true in some ways. They are VERY much the junior player here now, their domestic market share has slipped from exact equal to QF to about 20% less, and dropping all the time. And Compass and Virgin have taken a chunk aout of both. They can't afford NOT to move with the big guy.

------------------
~ Glen ~

bruceb

Hi Aaron,

<<Can you tell me where the OneWorld redemption tables are? I can only find the main Qantas one? >>

Can’t see it either….. I try and post it Monday – it might not have been released yet as it probably involved some partner renegotiations. Not sure, but will post when I find out something.

<<Do you have any tips for making the most of your points - redemption wise? >>

Some awards I like:

1. OneWorld Round the pacific fare with key sectors upgraded to business or first class (depending if your underlying ticket is economy or business). LanChile was a great addition for this fare.

2. OneWorld RTW awards, as discussed previously.

3. Bangkok and Hong Kong are now great value with prices dropping from 80,000 points to 50,000 points

4. Sydney/Melbourne – Perth has always been great value (nothing changed but represents great value).

5. Perth – Singapore – benefits from the combining of the domestic and international reward tables (now in Zone 2 and 30,000 points!).

6. Business to First upgrades – I love the beds – what more can I say J

Just a few of my favourites.

Cheers… Bruce

aarono

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the tips. I was also looking for the old oneworld redemption table and couldn't even get that, although I did notice that a one world RTW redemption now allows up to 10 stops with 80,000km cap? Would it not be better for me to book a RTW redemption now? - If i can find out how many points I need! ;-)10 stops opposed to 5? 80,000km opposed to 50,000km?

I am still not sure if I am entirely taken by the changes. Seems to be a lot of pluses as well as minuses. Maybe it will equal out....

cheers

Aaron

ffhound

Enough arguing...

Mind you there's an upside to this for me if you are right about Ansett matching Qantas's FF scheme.

My wife has about 38,000 points sitting in her Global Rewards account at the moment. If Ansett match the program exactly then with just another 2,000 points we will have enough for 2 round trip tickets Brisbane to Noumea (916 miles one way). Sweeeeeet.

I have a question also Bruce.

If you fly on a mystery flight how many miles do you accrue?

cheers Peter

bruceb

Hi aarono,

<<I was also looking for the old oneworld redemption table and couldn't even get that, although I did notice that a one world RTW redemption now allows up to 10 stops with 80,000km cap? Would it not be better for me to book a RTW redemption now? - If i can find out how many points I need! ;-)10 stops opposed to 5? 80,000km opposed to 50,000km?>>

I am not sure! I guess it depends on itinerary. I don't know - but I would guess the rates will fall slightly after the 15th September (inline with the fall in other long haul prices) - so if you are going for premium cabins and more than 5 stops I would guess before the 15th September - although I am only guessing.

<<I am still not sure if I am entirely taken by the changes. Seems to be a lot of pluses as well as minuses. Maybe it will equal out....>>

The changes to point earning (inc miles to kms, minimum earn and tier bonuses) and reward costs are supposed to be reasonably neutral – although I have been posting the positives when others post the negatives - the net impact should be small (could go either way depending on behavioural changes). Although there will be winners and losers with type of change… as always (this is the reason for the long lead time in bringing in the changes)

Although the other changes are designed to make the program more attractive and competitive:
1. Removal of points expiry
2. International upgrades
3. Lifetime recognition
4. Faster / easy to achieve status levels (inc lower retain levels)
5. Electronic upgrade certificate system (gets rid of the paper ones + makes them available to all members + allows to combine them for use on long-haul flights)
6. New recognition benefits (some still have not been announced – watch this space) – includes comp fold membership for partner, comp Qantas club entry pass, guaranteed Y seat, etc, etc
7. Removal of the account service fee (great for members that are dominant for periods of time)

My summary of FF programs worldwide is that they either offer great awards (upgrades, etc - US carriers) or they offer great recognition benefits (lounges with free alcohol, etc – European and other Asian carriers). I have a hard time thinking of another carrier that has combined the best of both worlds.

Hi Peter,

<<If you fly on a mystery flight how many miles do you accrue? >>

Mystery to me

Cheers… Bruce

[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 03-16-2001).]

RichardMEL

First of all: bruceb - you are an official legend. Time for you to quit being a QF ally and go tell Ansett how to fix their broken program

Re mystery flights.. I seem to recall that the rule *used* to be (This is AN though) you'd only get a set 1000 points or something. My last MF I credited to UA (MEL-BNE-MEL) and got the usual distance credit (70%) for it. I'd imagine under the new QF system you'd get 1000 minimum and if you get a longer flight (which possibly only applies to MF's out of PER??) you'd get actual.

As for the AN/UA argument... I actually could well see under a reorganised global rewards that UA awards would go *up* as bruce suggests. But keep this in mind... If you look at it, the AN awards are really just the straight mileage equivalents of the AN award chart: ie: MEL-SYD = 17,000 km points on AN / 10,000 miles on UA (~16,000 km's), MEL-PER 30,000 points on AN, 20,000 miles on UA (32,000 km's). As bruce points out, the UA awards are still very good compared to AN because it is much easier to get more miles on UA, specially for elite level members.

Interesting times ahead, anyway !

------------------
UA 1K MEL
A Star Alliance(tm) Member.

dogcanyon

aarono, here is the QF oneworld redemption table from my most recent membership guide
(1999):

Distance Economy/Business/First
0 - 6,000 km 60,000/105,000/145,000
6, 001 - 14,000 km 110,000/165,000/200,000
14,001 - 28,000 km 120,000/230,000/300,000
28,001 - 31,000 km 130,000/260,000/340,000
31,001 - 50,000 km 150,000/300,000/400,000
50,001 - 65,000 km 170,000/330,000/500,000
65,001 - 89,000 km 190,000/380,000/580,000

aarono

Thanks dogcanyon. That table will come in handy for comparison with the new one when it is available.

Bruce, if you could let us know as soon as the new one world redemption table is posted that would be great. Then I can decide whether to book before or after September 15th.

Bruce- you are truly a legend - thanx


cheers
Aaron

whughes3

1) re the change from km to miles..sorry to be a cynic, but I remain to be convinced that it is anything other than a ploy to make it hard to compare the old system with the new, and to conceal the fact that behind all the hype, it's a pretty ordinary deal for the majority of people.

2) one real horror story which hasn't had much comment so far is the treatment of BC pax (FC too, but that's academic for me!).
In the current scheme, BC pax got about 80% more points than discount economy; BC reward flights cost 25% (dom) or 50% (int) more points. In the new scheme, BC gets only 25% more points; BC flights cost 50-100% more! THIS STINKS! It is surely the worst treatment of BC pax by any FF scheme anywhere! (The US airlines are a bit ordinary in this regard, but nowhere near as bad as this). Is this considered the way to treat high-value customers? Myself (current Silver) I will get 12% less points for BC flights under the new scheme...thanks a lot!
C'mon Qantas, get real..if you are going to give 100% for discount, then give 140% for full-economy, 180% for BC and 200% for FC (say). We aren't talking vast numbers of people..and they're the ones who make your profits!

ozstamps

Aarono. Thanks for doing the edits. Previous 2 pages now are quite readable.

whughes. You want the bad news, or the bad news, or perhaps the facts?

The world's largest airline UA has forever only "paid" 25% more miles for paid Business, all routes, and 50% more miles for paid First. That is the industry norm, not the exception. And I'd love to find a Business class seat that only cost "50-100% more" than coach.

Try 1000% more on many routes! I am flying to NYC in 2 days for a $A1299 published fare, booked direct with UA, who matched the QF fare actually, and then UA discounted it another $600 or whatever with 15% off coupons, and CS vouchers, so in the end it literally cost me less than a MEL-SYD would cost if I flew that route tomorrow. (And unlike on QF I'll earn about 40,000 or so real miles for the trip - or 2 FREE round trip tickets anywhere in Australia Ansett flies!) When QF makes those kind of deals, they will interest me.

I tweaked the system to "route" myself via day stopovers at Seattle, Denver, SFO and LAX! (All legs of course fully upgraded with one SWU Cert start to finish - when Qantas hands out totally free, FOURTEEN of those suckers like United has to me in the past 4 months they'll then get MY primary patronage!) The BUSINESS class fare SYD-NYC-SYD costs about TEN times that. That's $10,000 extra. But yes, only 25% more points for those who book it! That is the real world. Qantas just joined that world.

------------------
~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 03-17-2001).]

aarono

Ozstamps,

I am starting to think I should have joined UA FF scheme. I have been with QANTAS a few years now and bought a one world global explorer ticket because of this. I think now I should have one with star alliance. Seems to be more benefits and higher rewards. I am living in NYC city at the moment and have friends visiting, I will tell them to fly UA so that they get more FF points. Can they do the day stops like you?

Bring warm clothes to NYC, it hasn't warmed up yet - coldest winter in years....

Thanks for the tips,

Aaron