RichardMEL

Spot on re the value of QFF which I think QF value on their books at $3billion or so (maybe 2 but a lot). I think some there think that it is a captive market mostly and they won't go. Sure, many with corporate contracts and stuff will stay(until those expire) and I guess the once a year flyers will choose on price anyway, so wind up at JQ maybe or VA/TT based on the day and route, but they probably don't give a crap about that once a year family going to QLD for school hols.

I'm wondering if AJ and his bean counters have decided that X% of revenue comes from Y% of people, most of whom are "locked in" in one way or another and that if they lose a certain number of people well.. it won't matter much to the bottom line. I don't like it.

Borghetti is a smart operator. VA will follow at a time and in a way they will do.. but for now I think VA will sit back, and target people quietly(or not so much). Status match maybe? I don't know.. but if they were smart they'll not just jump on board. They'll make themselves a point of difference (for now) and probably be quick to show how they are "simpler" and "fairer" for the public...

we'll see but I do fear for QF revenue wise in the medium term as the changes piss too many off. I totally understand WHY they are doing many of these things (eg; reduced partner earn etc) and it makes sense from a business point of view..but often there is not a lot rational with the airline and/or loyalty business.

I guess time will tell.

davidMEL

I didn't speak to someone in PR, but I did just ring the platinum frequent flyer number about an unrelated issue and I spoke to a very sensible person in the service centre.

I politely gave her my thoughts on these changes and she replied that the service centre had been receiving calls all day from annoyed frequent flyers. She agreed that the changes weren't simple at all and that they had obviously been rushed. She sounded despondent more than anything else.

I asked her to pass on my thoughts to those who could reverse the changes and she said the whole service centre was going to do just that as the volume of complaints had been so high. It may not lead to anything, but it might make Qantas think twice about further awful simplifications.

So if you can spare five minutes, let them know what you think too.

David

Globaliser

Back to the QF website.

First, QF has now changed the URLs so that the reference to "Project Butterfly" has been removed. Perhaps QF has realised that butterflies have a very short life expectancy.

Second, the looooooong table of earning on different QF routes that were posted by QF yesterday has now been removed. In their place, the website now tells you the following, and directs you to an online calculator / lookup tool to find out the exact numbers and to separate pages for the original tables. Is this implicit acknowledgement that the new system is not simpler?

Interestingly but unsurprisingly, QF has not done the same exercise of highlighting how much red there would be in a corresponding table for partner SC earning. And we know that there is likely to be further bad news for partner point earning which is still in the pipeline.

Globaliser

Thanks! But to be fair, I don't think that the new system for this is any less simple than the old one. The table only has lots of lines because of the movement of certain mileage brackets from one zone into a new zone. I split it all out like this to demonstrate Himeno's point about how ladder-based partner SC earning is also poorer than before.

On looking more closely at the numbers for the "competing routes" partner SC earn, the naked cynicism of this move became more apparent. Flying trans-Pacific (including to the US east coast) on AA codes gives you SC earning aligned to earning on QF codes. Flying from western Australia to southeast Asia or the Middle East on a partner earns more SCs than flying from eastern Australia to those destinations. Just about everyone else gets stuffed.

However, one bright spot: QF has now replaced the political solecism about Doha's location with the single category "Middle East". Presumably this means that LHR-DXB on BA will actually earn SCs, unlike the impression given by yesterday's table.

BlackBerryAddict

I think this is indeed another step on the way to withdraw from OW. While OW rules don't prohibit this, surely it is not a nice thing to do to your alliance. I'd be curious to see if the other OW airlines will retaliate by giving fewer points/miles to their members travelling on QF.

Dave Noble

In some ways it is simpler. currently miles earned are based on actual distance of the specific trip whilst not it seems to be zonal based, SYD-LHR and MEL-LHR both having the same earning is , in some ways, simpler

DH188

This clause was quietly slipped in to the eligibility criteria a few months ago:

"Lounge access eligibility is based on the class of travel, Qantas club membership or the Frequent Flyer Membership tier for your next onward flight."

Mwenenzi

Other OW airlines do not give points/miles to their members travelling on another airline. The marketing carrier (e.g. QF) buys miles from other FFP's (e.g AA) to reward (bribe) you for flying with them (e.g. QF). Just like FFP's sell miles to credit card companies, hotels, etc

Himeno

Isn't that because EK refused to pay up for their members using QF lounges using the paper lists lounge staff were using?

777Flyer2

This looks like quite a devaluation of the Qantas program for many of its domestic frequent flier members. Not so much for higher paying members.

lokijuh

I think it furthers two fundamental philosophies that have directed the program over the last 4-5 years, namely:
1) Frequent Flyer program for those spending big $ on QF and it's strategic partners (this does not include all OW partners), and a frequent spender program for everyone else.
2) "You're with us or you're against us" philosophy - which started with moving most QFF earning credit cards to "direct sweep" and more recently the lower points earn in business & first on MH competing routes and QR when they entered OW (lower points earn in cheap economy had always existed, but it was unprecedented that business class earn was only 75% of miles travelled). Delinking from SPG could also fall in this category.

This sort of approach - increasing earn on higher fares and decreasing earn on lower fares and reducing status earn on key competing partners was always going to happen, it will be interesting to see if this a) will assist in turning the business around, or b) accelerate it's demise or c) is just tinkering at the edges and will have no effect on the core business performance. I suspect c).

Dave Noble

I somehow suspect that there will be howling and gnashing of teeth, but that rather than stop using the QF FF scheme, most will just continue on in the "thank you, please may you do this again to me later" tradition

inasmuchas

It's a huge devaluation in terms of earning status for QFF members who do not reside in Australia, and who fly predominantly with OW carriers. What's more, those purchasing higher fares are not immune, as the status earn rate on partner airlines is significantly devalued.

It's perfectly understandable that QF's focus would be on Australian based FFers, but where there was already little incentive, these changes provide even less reasons for being a QFF member outside of Australia and NZ.

nickcirc

+1 to that, As an Aussie that now lives in the USA, I've enjoyed having my Qantas Plat and retaining it with a few SJU runs every year. And of course this has let me have the luxury of always have a good seat on AA, Enjoying all the Flagship lounges and flying CX....

now No dice, I have a run to renew my plat next month, thankfully before everything kicks in, and thats prob going to be it... sadness

On one hand, we can't deny that over the world the idea of "status" has been diluted considerately. I am based in the USA in San Fran, Have Qantas Plat, United Premier Plat and Delta Plat Medallion (So Top Alliance status on OneWorld, Star & Skyteam). In addition to this I also have over 2 Million QFF Points.

For lack of a better word I have "Played the game". My Qantas Plat was 'Earnt' (and retained every year since) by simply flying 4 QF flights and then doing a few cheap status runs on American Airlines in First to SJU (The well known SJU Method). My points were all via doing stupid cheap runs left right and center, the more connections the better. I once booked a 48 hour trip to Europe for under 500 bucks just for the points. Yes I am THAT guy, Lurking on Flyertalk for a good deal on AA and taking off at a moments notice for a weekend just for the points.

I am _exactly_ the person who should NOT have status, It ISNT fair to all the others who actually Fly Qantas, jetstar, jet connect etc and Qantas owned planes.

United is an amazing example of when things go bad with status, Basically they gave status to EVERYBODY in some way, shape or form. either via a branded Credit Card or promotion. To the point that when I was flying back from MCO last week there were MORE people in the Priority boarding lane then the non priority lane.

Likewise United & Delta have changes their programs over the past few months (Delta only a few short weeks ago) to also favor those who spend more on their fares. This isn't anything new, and as sad as it is to imagine, If virgin also starts to see a similar problem, you can bet they will revisit their program as well.

Qantas is trying to stop this from happening before it completely dilutes the entire point of status. that is, you actually have to be a loyal, true frequent flyer, flying the higher classes and on their metal.

The FIFO world has completely destroyed the status world. Lounges are overcrowded and check in lines become a joke.

I'm 500 SC short of a retain (my membership year is till May 31) and il do a quick status run next month on AA to make that gap, but after that, I'm not hopefully I'l be able to retain again next year. Since I fly the bare minimum on QF and the rest on OneWorld partners.

Something that does surprise me is that you still at least earn "something" on the cheapest, sale fares. There are many airlines, Including Air New Zealand where if you buy the "real" sale fares you actually do not earn status credits etc. Who knows, maybe (doubtful) with these changes we will see "real" sale fares now that they don't award as many points?

Does this suck? Yeah It really really does. But as somebody who has seen what happens when it crumbles on other airlines, I can see what they are trying to save.

Platinum A332

Posted this in another forum, but it basically expresses my opinion on the whole situation.

I have to pick up on the point some have made that these changes reward those Qantas flyers who are "loyal" at the expense of those who are leeching off "cheaper" oneworld fares to obtain status.

Let's take my Dad for example (Platinum for 15+ years). Around five years ago, my Dad would easily retain Platinum (and then some) on QF only due to it having a decent international network. He could get to Frankfurt before 8.50am in the morning. He could fly to Beijing on a Qantas aircraft. He could take an overnight flight to Hong Kong on Qantas and connect throughout Asia. Through the BA partnership he could fly Europe-Tokyo/Shanghai/Hong Kong/Bangkok/Singapore-Sydney. This used to allow him to kill multiple meetings in the one trip.

Over the years he had to change his flights over to airlines such as CX, because of QF network decisions. The QF/EK alternative to Frankfurt, as mentioned above, gets in at 8.50am - too late for Business. The QF flight numbered alternative to Beijing is a China Eastern codeshare operating via Nanjing (enough said really.......). There is only one flight per day to Hong Kong. However, in order to stay loyal to QF where possible, he leveraged on the oneworld partnership of airlines such as Cathay Pacific. And where Qantas was available as a viable alternative, like on domestic flights, to New Zealand, the USA, Manila etc. - he has stuck loyally to QF.

Now, because of QF own decisions network wise, he is left with an option that makes it unrewarding to stay with QF because he gets punished for flying partners that offered an alternative where QF could not. But this is a choice that is beyond any reasonable person's control, other than the incompetent decisions of Qantas management.

People flying oneworld partners are not leeches trying to get status cheaply and are not any less "loyal" to Qantas. I understand that QF cannot be all things to all people. I do not expect QF to fly everywhere. But in a world of airline partnerships, it is not unreasonable to expect to be rewarded for flying partner airlines that offer an alternative where your business cannot.