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Originally Posted by zoombee
(Post 28868289)
I'm interested too - AA gave me the same response a few years ago. I was on a tight reticketing timeline so changed my route slightly instead but I *think* I've done a 2 domestic segment transit before (5+ years back if so).
Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 28868366)
This has been discussed before in this forum
- whether the rule's wording "provided one is a transfer without without stopover" (my emphasis) - means a single transfer of less than 24 hrs - or multiple transfers each of which is less than 24hrs Some have reported being allowed multiple transfers but others have reported being refused FWIW (very little:)) I have always been of the view that the rule means a single transfer However, stex in your particular case AA175 and AA61 are your friends. Each is a direct service MIA-NRT with a stop and plane change in DFW. But for the purpose of a Oneworld Explorer they count as a single segment
Originally Posted by headinclouds
(Post 28868962)
And Sarah, retired from AA and formerly the AA RTW guru, said that a connection without transfer means 1 city. Full stop.
The info that the rules in effect when purchased seems to dispel any notions of using new and 'better' rules when they are updated.
Originally Posted by JAXBA
(Post 28869318)
That would have been BA's interpretation in my day too: one connection only. We would also have used the historic rules as filed in Amadeus or ATPCo.
See, for example: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/9108367-post7.html |
Of course for new itineraries, this whole discussion on "transfer without stopover" is moot - the current rules (see post #461) have removed the words.
And so new itineraries allow multiple flight segments on each visit to each of the allowed 2nd visit continents and stopovers can be had on each visit too. |
Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 28868366)
... "provided one is a transfer without without stopover" (my emphasis)
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Yes and specifically a "transfer" in usual IATA language is one flight connecting to another flight. [But the flight need not be nonstop.]
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Thanks to all for the clarifications. And thanks very much pandaperth for suggesting flights AA175/AA61, they are ideal to solve my routing issue. Unfortunately, at this time both flights are only active until November 28, 2017. I need to fly them in June 2018. Just spoke with AA (both RTW desk and PLT desk) and they do not know whether it will be scheduled after November 28. I am not sure if they are considered seasonal flights and whether there is a predictable timeframe for when AA will confirm or not the extension of these flights... if any of you have some insights on this, please let me know.
One more question about transfer rules. The following is copied from the "Transfers" section of xONEx fare rules retrieved from ExpertFlyer: IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN EUROPE VIA AFRICA. AND IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN JAPAN / DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF KOREA / REPUBLIC OF KOREA/ SOUTHEAST ASIA VIA SOUTHWEST PACIFIC. AND IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN NORTH AMERICA VIA SOUTH AMERICA. 7 TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT. 2 PERMITTED TRANSFERS BETWEEN DOMESTIC FLIGHT AND INTERNATIONAL FLIGHT WITHIN THE FARE ORIGIN COUNTRY WITHIN ANY NATION 1 PERMITTED TRANSFERS BETWEEN DOMESTIC FLIGHT AND INTERNATIONAL FLIGHT IN HAWAII 7 PERMITTED IN PANAMA/CONTIGUOUS U.S.A./ CANADA/PUERTO RICO/US VIRGIN ISLANDS/ALASKA/ MEXICO/INTERNATIONAL POINTS IN THE CARIBBEAN AREA/CENTRAL AMERICA. |
Massive new section on Transfers in the Rules. There are multiple of these but this is one condition:
IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN AFRICA VIA EUROPE. AND IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN JAPAN / DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF KOREA / REPUBLIC OF KOREA/ SOUTHEAST ASIA VIA SOUTHWEST PACIFIC. AND IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN NORTH AMERICA VIA SOUTH AMERICA. 5 TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT. NONE PERMITTED IN LIBYA 2 PERMITTED TRANSFERS BETWEEN DOMESTIC FLIGHT AND INTERNATIONAL FLIGHT WITHIN THE FARE ORIGIN COUNTRY WITHIN ANY NATION 5 PERMITTED IN AFRICA. FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT PROVIDED - FARE BREAK POINTS IN MIDDLE EAST - OTHER POINT MIDDLE EAST/UNITED STATES - OTHER POINT CANADA/ CANADA - OTHER POINT UNITED STATES/HKG - OTHER POINT CHINA/CHINA - OTHER POINT HKG/MALAYSIA - OTHER POINT SIN/SIN - OTHER POINT MALAYSIA/AFRICA - OTHER POINT AFRICA/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT SRI LANKA/SRI LANKA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT INDIA/INDIA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES DOMESTIC - DESTINATION FARE BREAK POINTS. EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT WITHIN AREA 1 WITHIN AREA 2 WITHIN AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 2 AND AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 3 AND AREA 2. AND - 7 TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT. 1 PERMITTED TRANSFERS BETWEEN DOMESTIC FLIGHT AND INTERNATIONAL FLIGHT IN HAWAII 7 PERMITTED IN PANAMA/CONTIGUOUS U.S.A./ CANADA/PUERTO RICO/US VIRGIN ISLANDS/ ALASKA/ MEXICO/INTERNATIONAL POINTS IN THE CARIBBEAN AREA/CENTRAL AMERICA. FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT PROVIDED - FARE BREAK POINTS IN MIDDLE EAST - OTHER POINT MIDDLE EAST/UNITED STATES - OTHER POINT CANADA/ CANADA - OTHER POINT UNITED STATES/HKG - OTHER POINT CHINA/CHINA - OTHER POINT HKG/MALAYSIA - OTHER POINT SIN/SIN - OTHER POINT MALAYSIA/ AFRICA - OTHER POINT AFRICA/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT SRI LANKA/SRI LANKA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT INDIA/INDIA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES DOMESTIC - DESTINATION FARE BREAK POINTS. EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT WITHIN AREA 1 WITHIN AREA 2 WITHIN AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 2 AND AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 3 AND AREA 2. AND - UNLIMITED TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT. NONE PERMITTED IN PANAMA NONE PERMITTED IN MAURITIUS/SOUTH AFRICA 2 PERMITTED AT VIA POINTS BETWEEN UNITED KINGDOM ALBANIA/BULGARIA/CYPRUS/ALGERIA/ GREECE/CROATIA/MOROCCO/ROMANIA/RUSSIA/ TUNISIA/TURKEY/UKRAINE/MIDDLE EAST 5 PERMITTED IN LIBYA/EUROPE/MIDDLE EAST 5 PERMITTED IN SOUTH AMERICA 5 PERMITTED IN SOUTHWEST PACIFIC 5 PERMITTED IN AREA 3. FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT PROVIDED - FARE BREAK POINTS IN MIDDLE EAST - OTHER POINT MIDDLE EAST/UNITED STATES - OTHER POINT CANADA/ CANADA - OTHER POINT UNITED STATES/HKG - OTHER POINT CHINA/CHINA - OTHER POINT HKG/MALAYSIA - OTHER POINT SIN/SIN - OTHER POINT MALAYSIA/ AFRICA - OTHER POINT AFRICA/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT SRI LANKA/SRI LANKA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT INDIA/INDIA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES DOMESTIC - DESTINATION FARE BREAK POINTS. EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT WITHIN AREA 1 WITHIN AREA 2 WITHIN AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 2 AND AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 3 AND AREA 2. AND - 4 TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT. NONE PERMITTED IN MAURITIUS/SOUTH AFRICA 1 PERMITTED AT CONNECTIONS IN JAPAN / DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF KOREA / REPUBLIC OF KOREA/SOUTHEAST ASIA/SOUTH ASIAN SUBCONTINENT/RUSSIAN FEDERATION EAST OF URALS 1 PERMITTED AT CONNECTIONS IN PANAMA/ NORTH AMERICA/INTERNATIONAL POINTS IN THE CARIBBEAN AREA/CENTRAL AMERICA 1 PERMITTED AT CONNECTIONS IN EUROPE 1 PERMITTED AT CONNECTIONS AT VIA POINTS BETWEEN AFRICA AREA 1/AREA 3. FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT PROVIDED - FARE BREAK POINTS IN MIDDLE EAST - OTHER POINT MIDDLE EAST/UNITED STATES - OTHER POINT CANADA/ CANADA - OTHER POINT UNITED STATES/HKG - OTHER POINT CHINA/CHINA - OTHER POINT HKG/MALAYSIA - OTHER POINT SIN/SIN - OTHER POINT MALAYSIA/ AFRICA - OTHER POINT AFRICA/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT SRI LANKA/SRI LANKA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT INDIA/INDIA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES DOMESTIC - DESTINATION FARE BREAK POINTS. EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT WITHIN AREA 1 WITHIN AREA 2 WITHIN AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 2 AND AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 3 AND AREA 2. I'm still trying to get my head around what the huge list of fare break points and permitted transfers means. How does an xONEx fare have fare break points and routing? |
Originally Posted by beardoc
(Post 28894168)
Massive new section on Transfers in the Rules. There are multiple of these but this is one condition:
This is only one of the new conditions. There are many more in the same section. I'm still trying to get my head around what the huge list of fare break points and permitted transfers means. How does an xONEx fare have fare break points and routing? The xONEx product allows the start and end cities to differ. This is only allowed domestically and between certain countries. But all the fares are published as XXX-XXX (i.e., back to the same city). So to get around that, formally speaking you have a surface sector at the end of your itinerary joining the finally visited city with the fare destination. This is called a “fare break surface sector” because it occurs at a fare break point. Fare break surface sectors are usually disallowed because they increase the complexity of itinerary pricing so much if you have to consider fares for non-visited cities as part of your pricing calculation. Nonetheless, they are required here. The xONEx product also has very unusual transfer allowances (a certain number in each continent, you can go through the same city multiple times but only fly the same pair of cities once in the same direction): again, because it is unusual, there is no short cut in the ATPCO language, it all has to be expressed explicitly. So that’s why it’s so long and incomprehensible. I have no doubt it is full of exploitable mistakes, if someone looks carefully enough. :) |
Originally Posted by Calchas
(Post 28894312)
This was inserted some time ago (a few months at least) to allow Sabre to autoprice xONEx itineraries. It is in APTCO language. The rules are generated by a computer, for another computer to read. They are not intended to be human readable.
The xONEx product allows the start and end cities to differ. This is only allowed domestically and between certain countries. But all the fares are published as XXX-XXX (i.e., back to the same city). So to get around that, formally speaking you have a surface sector at the end of your itinerary joining the finally visited city with the fare destination. This is called a “fare break surface sector” because it occurs at a fare break point. Fare break surface sectors are usually disallowed because they increase the complexity of itinerary pricing so much if you have to consider fares for non-visited cities as part of your pricing calculation. Nonetheless, they are required here. The xONEx product also has very unusual transfer allowances (a certain number in each continent, you can go through the same city multiple times but only fly the same pair of cities once in the same direction): again, because it is unusual, there is no short cut in the ATPCO language, it all has to be expressed explicitly. So that’s why it’s so long and incomprehensible. I have no doubt it is full of exploitable mistakes, if someone looks carefully enough. :) If it's just to codify for autopricing then that's fine. |
I'm making this thread a sticky.
Gardyloo Oneworld moderator |
2017-Oct-30 New Version of the Rule Sheet (Minor Changes only)
2017-Oct-30 New Version of the Rule Sheet (Minor Changes only)
Using diffchecker, the only changes appear to be:
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Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 29016714)
2017-Oct-30 New Version of the Rule Sheet (Minor Changes only)
Using diffchecker, the only changes appear to be:
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Are the following rules about no stop-over still on the books: 1) upon second entry in North America coming from South America, 2) upon second entry in Europe coming from South Africa?
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Originally Posted by ajnaro
(Post 29248827)
Are the following rules about no stop-over still on the books: 1) upon second entry in North America coming from South America, 2) upon second entry in Europe coming from South Africa?
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Originally Posted by ajnaro
(Post 29248827)
Are the following rules about no stop-over still on the books: 1) upon second entry in North America coming from South America, 2) upon second entry in Europe coming from South Africa?
Code:
E. ONLY ONE INTERCONTINENTAL DEPARTURE AND ONE
Originally Posted by ajnaro
(Post 29255199)
I can now answer my own question, at least about North America. I tried making a new booking with the AA around the world desk. It contains two entries to North America: one from HND and the other from GIG. Two different agents, both of whom I knew from previous interactions, insisted that one of these entries would have to be without stop-over. Finally, I asked one of them to check with the rate desk and the answer that came back was something like ‘we have to allow two stop-overs because of the wording of the rule’. From that, I conclude that the current version of the rule is the one given in post #461 above.
Code:
F.ONLY ONE INTERNATIONAL DEPARTURE AND ONE |
Is it just something I missed or has a very large MPM routing table been added to the xONEx fares? I was looking at the routing page in EF for the xONEx fare ex-JNB and discovered a massive MPM table with 499 options!
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