Boarding Lane Etiquette
Mar 13, 2007, 4:03 am
#76
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MEL
Programs: DL, QF, QR Silver, MR Lifetime Gold
Posts: 7,024
There are a lot of things that people have the "right" to do that shouldn't be done. You don't have to let another car go ahead of you to merge into traffic. You aren't bound by law to refrain from talking loudly in theaters or libraries. You can even floss in McDonald's or clip your toes in a stadium. Go ahead, describe your bowel movements in intricate detail in mixed company. We live in America, baby, we're FREE!!!
Look, I am all for doing the right thing and not being rude. My contention is that the Elite line is NOT cutting people off, it is merely a line for people meeting certain criteria, much like an express lane in a grocery store or even a handicapped parking spot. I use the elite line because I do not believe it is wrong. As I said before, I find it hypocritical to say that the Elite line is wrong while accepting other Elite perks such as EUA's, bonus miles, better seats, etc.
I happen to think that using a perk that isn't generally known-even, it seems, among the company's employees-to go in front of dozens of people who are patiently waiting in line is neither appropriate nor considerate. And the opposite of considerate is...inconsiderate! And that is another word for rude.
Actually, I'd like to add to my response:
The idea of cutting in line simply because you're elite...welll, it's:
"A perfect example of a "me! me! me!" response. I like this, I don't like that...
The idea of this thread was not just about feet on someone else's armrest, or banging on a chair (or going in front of people in line)... it's about respect for others - something that after all these posts you still haven't gotten (much like you haven't gotten the "sleeping on the plane" idea). ....This is about the 20-30 pax around you and having some respect for them. It's the idea of not doing onto others what you wouldn't want done to you. If we all make small efforts to respect each other flying can be a great experience for everyone. If, on the other hand, you have no consideration for other pax because YOU want to put YOUR feet up, or tap your feet, or keep the window shade open (or pull rank to cut in line) in utter disregard for other pax - that's when you become the passenger that all of us respectful...flyers resent."
The idea of cutting in line simply because you're elite...welll, it's:
"A perfect example of a "me! me! me!" response. I like this, I don't like that...
The idea of this thread was not just about feet on someone else's armrest, or banging on a chair (or going in front of people in line)... it's about respect for others - something that after all these posts you still haven't gotten (much like you haven't gotten the "sleeping on the plane" idea). ....This is about the 20-30 pax around you and having some respect for them. It's the idea of not doing onto others what you wouldn't want done to you. If we all make small efforts to respect each other flying can be a great experience for everyone. If, on the other hand, you have no consideration for other pax because YOU want to put YOUR feet up, or tap your feet, or keep the window shade open (or pull rank to cut in line) in utter disregard for other pax - that's when you become the passenger that all of us respectful...flyers resent."
Good one! Only you're taking things out of context and applying this to something entirely different. I truly believe that one should be courteous and considerate towards other people in all situations, including flying. I do my best to respect other pax, as I do my best to respect other people in general. If you truly believe that Elite perks are unfair to others then you should forgo your WP membership. Anything less makes you a hypocrite.(Even accumulating miles and using them to get free flights when other pax pay money for their seats should be wrong if you go by that logic)
Mar 13, 2007, 4:31 am
#77
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: LAX/BOS/HKG/AMS/SFO...hmm, I need a life.
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Mar 13, 2007, 5:43 am
#78
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: MSP
Programs: Lapsed DL North PE, now nothing
Posts: 701
Your words, not mine. I just brought the UK up as an example to compare cultures regarding queuing. I never said one was better or worse.
Mar 13, 2007, 6:02 am
#79
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: QLA
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Wow... heated debate. As an outside observer who regularly flies an AAirline without this perk, I think the elites should be allowed to board at their leisure, as in ANY time.
It's not a "me me me!" thing... it's being able to use your time more productively than to stand in line, and to get close to the same benefits as early boarding (namely, overhead bin space).
Those who think otherwise because it's against etiquette... well, you should just turn in your elite cards now and fly WN. Y'all are equating "etiquette" with "fairness" and that's not how the airline world works.
Would you say the Japanese are culturally good at queuing? Because they sure do maintain separate F/J/Y boarding for JL.
It's not a "me me me!" thing... it's being able to use your time more productively than to stand in line, and to get close to the same benefits as early boarding (namely, overhead bin space).
Those who think otherwise because it's against etiquette... well, you should just turn in your elite cards now and fly WN. Y'all are equating "etiquette" with "fairness" and that's not how the airline world works.
Would you say the Japanese are culturally good at queuing? Because they sure do maintain separate F/J/Y boarding for JL.
Mar 13, 2007, 7:41 am
#80
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 644
You can't clip your toenails in McDs-no shirt, no shoes, no service. I never, however, see any signs at any stadiums prohibiting the practice.
And you can do a lot of talking before you get kicked out of a library or theater for talking loudly. The point is, you can do a whole lot of things that are rude and inconsiderate without breaking any laws. You can go up to every single person you meet and tell them how ugly they are. You can grab the back of people's seats when you're on a plane. You can pound your knees into the back of their chair. There's dozens of things you CAN do but you SHOULDN'T do.
If you go to the front of a line, you are cutting. You might be justified in cutting in, like you've just found out your car is stolen or your mom is having a heart attack and you need to use the phone, but you are cutting in line.
I'm not arguing that NW doesn't give you the right to cut in line. I'm just saying that if a bunch of people, who patiently waited while elite boarding was called and then lined up when they were told they could board, it's rude to pull rank and go the front of the line. Cutting in, as it were.
And it's not hypocritical to say this perk shouldn't be used but others can. People who don't fly alot are never going to get a seat in First. They know this. They know that elites get to board when they are called before everyone else. They also aren't standing in line, in formation, waiting for their turn to get on the plane.
They do not know-nor, apparently-does many NW employees-that very frequent flyers can board at any time. It's just snotty to get in the front of the line. NW may have given you special perks because you give them a lot of business, but you did nothing special to the people you're going in front of. The vast majority of flyers aren't "elite" and they should be respected as well.
Everyone knows what the express line is. And everyone knows that "elites" get boarded first. And people can see the signs for the special security and check in lines-and those lines, for the most part, are respected.
And you can look at that little red carpet and think, okay, so they get to feel special when they walk through and are called up before everyone else. But now it's the general boarding line's turn.
By going in front of that person, you're basically implying that you are more important than they are, and you don't have to display basic courtesy because you are "elite." Because that's what waiting in line is. It's showing basic courtesy, taking into consideration that all those people behind you wouldn't understand or know (and certainly don't care) that NW has a little-known rule that lets you cut in line.
See, basic courtesy is why you don't grab people's seat backs, and why you let the car who's trying to merge go in front of you, and why people don't clip their nails or pick their nose or do other unsavory things in public. It's not that you don't want to do those things, it's not because you don't have a right to do those things, it's because you're thinking of the effects on other people.
I know, it's a difficult concept to grasp.
And you can do a lot of talking before you get kicked out of a library or theater for talking loudly. The point is, you can do a whole lot of things that are rude and inconsiderate without breaking any laws. You can go up to every single person you meet and tell them how ugly they are. You can grab the back of people's seats when you're on a plane. You can pound your knees into the back of their chair. There's dozens of things you CAN do but you SHOULDN'T do.
If you go to the front of a line, you are cutting. You might be justified in cutting in, like you've just found out your car is stolen or your mom is having a heart attack and you need to use the phone, but you are cutting in line.
I'm not arguing that NW doesn't give you the right to cut in line. I'm just saying that if a bunch of people, who patiently waited while elite boarding was called and then lined up when they were told they could board, it's rude to pull rank and go the front of the line. Cutting in, as it were.
And it's not hypocritical to say this perk shouldn't be used but others can. People who don't fly alot are never going to get a seat in First. They know this. They know that elites get to board when they are called before everyone else. They also aren't standing in line, in formation, waiting for their turn to get on the plane.
They do not know-nor, apparently-does many NW employees-that very frequent flyers can board at any time. It's just snotty to get in the front of the line. NW may have given you special perks because you give them a lot of business, but you did nothing special to the people you're going in front of. The vast majority of flyers aren't "elite" and they should be respected as well.
Everyone knows what the express line is. And everyone knows that "elites" get boarded first. And people can see the signs for the special security and check in lines-and those lines, for the most part, are respected.
And you can look at that little red carpet and think, okay, so they get to feel special when they walk through and are called up before everyone else. But now it's the general boarding line's turn.
By going in front of that person, you're basically implying that you are more important than they are, and you don't have to display basic courtesy because you are "elite." Because that's what waiting in line is. It's showing basic courtesy, taking into consideration that all those people behind you wouldn't understand or know (and certainly don't care) that NW has a little-known rule that lets you cut in line.
See, basic courtesy is why you don't grab people's seat backs, and why you let the car who's trying to merge go in front of you, and why people don't clip their nails or pick their nose or do other unsavory things in public. It's not that you don't want to do those things, it's not because you don't have a right to do those things, it's because you're thinking of the effects on other people.
I know, it's a difficult concept to grasp.
Mar 13, 2007, 8:08 am
#81
Join Date: May 1999
Location: CVG
Programs: DL DM 4MM, Lifetime Marriott Plat Elite, HH Diamond
Posts: 1,429
If you go to the front of a line, you are cutting. You might be justified in cutting in, like you've just found out your car is stolen or your mom is having a heart attack and you need to use the phone, but you are cutting in line.
I'm not arguing that NW doesn't give you the right to cut in line. I'm just saying that if a bunch of people, who patiently waited while elite boarding was called and then lined up when they were told they could board, it's rude to pull rank and go the front of the line. Cutting in, as it were.
I know, it's a difficult concept to grasp.
There are two lanes for a reason. General boarding and Elite. If I have earned Elite, I will use the lane. This is a NW perk.
Mar 13, 2007, 8:18 am
#82
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MEL
Programs: DL, QF, QR Silver, MR Lifetime Gold
Posts: 7,024
You can't clip your toenails in McDs-no shirt, no shoes, no service. I never, however, see any signs at any stadiums prohibiting the practice.
And you can do a lot of talking before you get kicked out of a library or theater for talking loudly. The point is, you can do a whole lot of things that are rude and inconsiderate without breaking any laws. You can go up to every single person you meet and tell them how ugly they are. You can grab the back of people's seats when you're on a plane. You can pound your knees into the back of their chair. There's dozens of things you CAN do but you SHOULDN'T do.
And it's not hypocritical to say this perk shouldn't be used but others can. People who don't fly alot are never going to get a seat in First. They know this. They know that elites get to board when they are called before everyone else. They also aren't standing in line, in formation, waiting for their turn to get on the plane.
They do not know-nor, apparently-does many NW employees-that very frequent flyers can board at any time. It's just snotty to get in the front of the line. NW may have given you special perks because you give them a lot of business, but you did nothing special to the people you're going in front of. The vast majority of flyers aren't "elite" and they should be respected as well.
Everyone knows what the express line is. And everyone knows that "elites" get boarded first.
See, basic courtesy is why you don't grab people's seat backs, and why you let the car who's trying to merge go in front of you, and why people don't clip their nails or pick their nose or do other unsavory things in public. It's not that you don't want to do those things, it's not because you don't have a right to do those things, it's because you're thinking of the effects on other people.
I know, it's a difficult concept to grasp.
And you can do a lot of talking before you get kicked out of a library or theater for talking loudly. The point is, you can do a whole lot of things that are rude and inconsiderate without breaking any laws. You can go up to every single person you meet and tell them how ugly they are. You can grab the back of people's seats when you're on a plane. You can pound your knees into the back of their chair. There's dozens of things you CAN do but you SHOULDN'T do.
And it's not hypocritical to say this perk shouldn't be used but others can. People who don't fly alot are never going to get a seat in First. They know this. They know that elites get to board when they are called before everyone else. They also aren't standing in line, in formation, waiting for their turn to get on the plane.
They do not know-nor, apparently-does many NW employees-that very frequent flyers can board at any time. It's just snotty to get in the front of the line. NW may have given you special perks because you give them a lot of business, but you did nothing special to the people you're going in front of. The vast majority of flyers aren't "elite" and they should be respected as well.
Everyone knows what the express line is. And everyone knows that "elites" get boarded first.
See, basic courtesy is why you don't grab people's seat backs, and why you let the car who's trying to merge go in front of you, and why people don't clip their nails or pick their nose or do other unsavory things in public. It's not that you don't want to do those things, it's not because you don't have a right to do those things, it's because you're thinking of the effects on other people.
I know, it's a difficult concept to grasp.
- Grabbing people's seatbacks is NOT an Elite perk; it therefore bares no comparison to Elite boarding - bad example
- Clipping your toe nails in a stadium has NOTHING to do with the Elite carpet either
- Going up to people to tell them that they are ugly...
I know of no program that promises such perks.- There ARE signs in libraries telling you to be quiet and it will NOT be long before someone kicks you out of you are loud. Perhaps you should visit a library - you could try reading about logic, for example.
- This perk that we are talking about is listed on the NWA website- it is information that is available to the public. Still, whether all pax know about it or not... how is this related to it being morally correct or not? Are you saying that it's ok to do something only if EVERYBODY knows about what you're doing? Again... no relation to the argument whatsoever. (Also, let's not make assumptions about what everybody knows... ppl know they're not going to get a seat in F, but they don't know about elite boardig... how do YOU know?)
- There IS a sign about Elite boarding (besides the big red carpet that's pretty hard to miss in the first place). There is a sign pointing in one direction saying "general boarding" and then an arrow in the other direction saying "Elite boarding: First Class/WBC, WorldPerks Elite, SkyTeam Elite Plus, SkyTeam Elite", clearly making a distinction between the two lines. Sometimes they even announce that Elites may board at any time.
You also contradicted yourself: first you made the point that if there is no sign, then there's no rule, but then you talk about courtesy and how people should follow these unwritten rules. So, which is it?
All I am asking is that you be consistent if you're making a counter-argument. It is either ok to have Elite perks and advantages over other pax or it isn't. Let's not pick and choose which perks are right and which are wrong based on logic that we just make up as we go. We either expect ALL the rules to be posted, or we accept that some rules that are not posted (including courtesy) apply.
Mar 13, 2007, 8:23 am
#83
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Lost in Space
Programs: MR Plat, AA EXP, Hertz Presidents Club, SPG Plat
Posts: 170
I don't think it is difficult grasp, but the problem I have is this. Your first leg it late. They have already started general boarding on your second leg. You have your carry on that you need to have put in the over head (because most of us do not like to check bags). If you wait at the back of the line with the rest of the cattle, you will not be able to stow you bag on most flights I am on. As a regular flyer that has to deal with the pains of traveling every week of my life, why should I not be able to board using the red carpet to help ensure that I get some overhead space? The purpose of the line is not to separate the regular traveler as being better that the average traveler, it is to accommodate us as we have to endure more crap on a frequent basis. Until the day comes that I am guaranteed overhead space for my items, I will go to the front of the line.
Mar 13, 2007, 8:24 am
#84
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Home
Posts: 2,707
You can't clip your toenails in McDs-no shirt, no shoes, no service. I never, however, see any signs at any stadiums prohibiting the practice.
And you can do a lot of talking before you get kicked out of a library or theater for talking loudly. The point is, you can do a whole lot of things that are rude and inconsiderate without breaking any laws. You can go up to every single person you meet and tell them how ugly they are. You can grab the back of people's seats when you're on a plane. You can pound your knees into the back of their chair. There's dozens of things you CAN do but you SHOULDN'T do.
If you go to the front of a line, you are cutting. You might be justified in cutting in, like you've just found out your car is stolen or your mom is having a heart attack and you need to use the phone, but you are cutting in line.
I'm not arguing that NW doesn't give you the right to cut in line. I'm just saying that if a bunch of people, who patiently waited while elite boarding was called and then lined up when they were told they could board, it's rude to pull rank and go the front of the line. Cutting in, as it were.
And it's not hypocritical to say this perk shouldn't be used but others can. People who don't fly alot are never going to get a seat in First. They know this. They know that elites get to board when they are called before everyone else. They also aren't standing in line, in formation, waiting for their turn to get on the plane.
They do not know-nor, apparently-does many NW employees-that very frequent flyers can board at any time. It's just snotty to get in the front of the line. NW may have given you special perks because you give them a lot of business, but you did nothing special to the people you're going in front of. The vast majority of flyers aren't "elite" and they should be respected as well.
Everyone knows what the express line is. And everyone knows that "elites" get boarded first. And people can see the signs for the special security and check in lines-and those lines, for the most part, are respected.
And you can look at that little red carpet and think, okay, so they get to feel special when they walk through and are called up before everyone else. But now it's the general boarding line's turn.
By going in front of that person, you're basically implying that you are more important than they are, and you don't have to display basic courtesy because you are "elite." Because that's what waiting in line is. It's showing basic courtesy, taking into consideration that all those people behind you wouldn't understand or know (and certainly don't care) that NW has a little-known rule that lets you cut in line.
See, basic courtesy is why you don't grab people's seat backs, and why you let the car who's trying to merge go in front of you, and why people don't clip their nails or pick their nose or do other unsavory things in public. It's not that you don't want to do those things, it's not because you don't have a right to do those things, it's because you're thinking of the effects on other people.
I know, it's a difficult concept to grasp.
And you can do a lot of talking before you get kicked out of a library or theater for talking loudly. The point is, you can do a whole lot of things that are rude and inconsiderate without breaking any laws. You can go up to every single person you meet and tell them how ugly they are. You can grab the back of people's seats when you're on a plane. You can pound your knees into the back of their chair. There's dozens of things you CAN do but you SHOULDN'T do.
If you go to the front of a line, you are cutting. You might be justified in cutting in, like you've just found out your car is stolen or your mom is having a heart attack and you need to use the phone, but you are cutting in line.
I'm not arguing that NW doesn't give you the right to cut in line. I'm just saying that if a bunch of people, who patiently waited while elite boarding was called and then lined up when they were told they could board, it's rude to pull rank and go the front of the line. Cutting in, as it were.
And it's not hypocritical to say this perk shouldn't be used but others can. People who don't fly alot are never going to get a seat in First. They know this. They know that elites get to board when they are called before everyone else. They also aren't standing in line, in formation, waiting for their turn to get on the plane.
They do not know-nor, apparently-does many NW employees-that very frequent flyers can board at any time. It's just snotty to get in the front of the line. NW may have given you special perks because you give them a lot of business, but you did nothing special to the people you're going in front of. The vast majority of flyers aren't "elite" and they should be respected as well.
Everyone knows what the express line is. And everyone knows that "elites" get boarded first. And people can see the signs for the special security and check in lines-and those lines, for the most part, are respected.
And you can look at that little red carpet and think, okay, so they get to feel special when they walk through and are called up before everyone else. But now it's the general boarding line's turn.
By going in front of that person, you're basically implying that you are more important than they are, and you don't have to display basic courtesy because you are "elite." Because that's what waiting in line is. It's showing basic courtesy, taking into consideration that all those people behind you wouldn't understand or know (and certainly don't care) that NW has a little-known rule that lets you cut in line.
See, basic courtesy is why you don't grab people's seat backs, and why you let the car who's trying to merge go in front of you, and why people don't clip their nails or pick their nose or do other unsavory things in public. It's not that you don't want to do those things, it's not because you don't have a right to do those things, it's because you're thinking of the effects on other people.
I know, it's a difficult concept to grasp.
The elite passengers have earned the right to use this separate line. If you would like to take advantage of this line, then fly enough miles/segments to become elite. If you cannot grasp this concept then perhaps Southwest Airlines would be a better fit for you.
Mar 13, 2007, 8:35 am
#85
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: LAX/BOS/HKG/AMS/SFO...hmm, I need a life.
Programs: United1K, AA ExPlAAt, DL MM/Gold, Hilton Diamond, Avis First
Posts: 13,316
"See, basic courtesy is why you don't grab people's seat backs, and why you let the car who's trying to merge go in front of you, and why people don't clip their nails or pick their nose or do other unsavory things in public. It's not that you don't want to do those things, it's not because you don't have a right to do those things, it's because you're thinking of the effects on other people.
What is this concept you speak of? I am from Boston and it's not a matter of "letting someone merge" you are giving up valuable "points" and showing you are "weak" if you do not cut that car off and THEN flip said target the bird for no reason at all...
Note the smiley faces ...joke joke joke please not that was a joke.
What is this concept you speak of? I am from Boston and it's not a matter of "letting someone merge" you are giving up valuable "points" and showing you are "weak" if you do not cut that car off and THEN flip said target the bird for no reason at all...
Note the smiley faces ...joke joke joke please not that was a joke.
Mar 13, 2007, 8:39 am
#86
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Home
Posts: 2,707
"See, basic courtesy is why you don't grab people's seat backs, and why you let the car who's trying to merge go in front of you, and why people don't clip their nails or pick their nose or do other unsavory things in public. It's not that you don't want to do those things, it's not because you don't have a right to do those things, it's because you're thinking of the effects on other people.
What is this concept you speak of? I am from Boston and it's not a matter of "letting someone merge" you are giving up valuable "points" and showing you are "weak" if you do not cut that car off and THEN flip said target the bird for no reason at all...
Note the smiley faces ...joke joke joke please not that was a joke.
What is this concept you speak of? I am from Boston and it's not a matter of "letting someone merge" you are giving up valuable "points" and showing you are "weak" if you do not cut that car off and THEN flip said target the bird for no reason at all...
Note the smiley faces ...joke joke joke please not that was a joke.A joke? Hah! I have been to Boston. Was that you???
Mar 13, 2007, 8:40 am
#87
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA | CLT, formerly LHR & AMS (with just a bit of PSP)
Programs: AA CK Spouse, BAEC Silver , HH Dia, BonVoy Titanium, (former)Caesars7*, (former)Wynn Black, HR Icon
Posts: 8,176
Mar 13, 2007, 8:48 am
#88
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MEL
Programs: DL, QF, QR Silver, MR Lifetime Gold
Posts: 7,024
^ Gotta love driving in MA!! It builds character. Cutting people off is not rude, using blinkers is rude.
Mar 13, 2007, 9:01 am
#89
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: LAX/BOS/HKG/AMS/SFO...hmm, I need a life.
Programs: United1K, AA ExPlAAt, DL MM/Gold, Hilton Diamond, Avis First
Posts: 13,316
heck, I just moved to Southern New Hampshire --- and every time I'm driving in Mass. people like you, avidflyer, are trying to cut me off --- but, I have been holding my own OK --- so.... if you run into an Escalade with vanity plates having to do w/ Baccarat --- you better watch out !
If you have NH plates your good with me. You know what we call the Mass drivers, something like Mass-potholes drop the pot.
Mar 13, 2007, 9:16 am
#90
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 644
Please take no offense in this, but you did nothing but repeat yourself. That's exactly what you said last time and you failed to see the red herring in your argument. You're making all sorts of analogies that make no sense.
- Grabbing people's seatbacks is NOT an Elite perk; it therefore bares no comparison to Elite boarding - bad example
- Clipping your toe nails in a stadium has NOTHING to do with the Elite carpet either
- Going up to people to tell them that they are ugly... I know of no program that promises such perks.
- There ARE signs in libraries telling you to be quiet and it will NOT be long before someone kicks you out of you are loud. Perhaps you should visit a library - you could try reading about logic, for example.
- This perk that we are talking about is listed on the NWA website- it is information that is available to the public. Still, whether all pax know about it or not... how is this related to it being morally correct or not? Are you saying that it's ok to do something only if EVERYBODY knows about what you're doing? Again... no relation to the argument whatsoever. (Also, let's not make assumptions about what everybody knows... ppl know they're not going to get a seat in F, but they don't know about elite boardig... how do YOU know?)
- There IS a sign about Elite boarding (besides the big red carpet that's pretty hard to miss in the first place). There is a sign pointing in one direction saying "general boarding" and then an arrow in the other direction saying "Elite boarding: First Class/WBC, WorldPerks Elite, SkyTeam Elite Plus, SkyTeam Elite", clearly making a distinction between the two lines. Sometimes they even announce that Elites may board at any time.
You also contradicted yourself: first you made the point that if there is no sign, then there's no rule, but then you talk about courtesy and how people should follow these unwritten rules. So, which is it?
All I am asking is that you be consistent if you're making a counter-argument. It is either ok to have Elite perks and advantages over other pax or it isn't. Let's not pick and choose which perks are right and which are wrong based on logic that we just make up as we go. We either expect ALL the rules to be posted, or we accept that some rules that are not posted (including courtesy) apply.
- Grabbing people's seatbacks is NOT an Elite perk; it therefore bares no comparison to Elite boarding - bad example
- Clipping your toe nails in a stadium has NOTHING to do with the Elite carpet either
- Going up to people to tell them that they are ugly...
I know of no program that promises such perks.- There ARE signs in libraries telling you to be quiet and it will NOT be long before someone kicks you out of you are loud. Perhaps you should visit a library - you could try reading about logic, for example.
- This perk that we are talking about is listed on the NWA website- it is information that is available to the public. Still, whether all pax know about it or not... how is this related to it being morally correct or not? Are you saying that it's ok to do something only if EVERYBODY knows about what you're doing? Again... no relation to the argument whatsoever. (Also, let's not make assumptions about what everybody knows... ppl know they're not going to get a seat in F, but they don't know about elite boardig... how do YOU know?)
- There IS a sign about Elite boarding (besides the big red carpet that's pretty hard to miss in the first place). There is a sign pointing in one direction saying "general boarding" and then an arrow in the other direction saying "Elite boarding: First Class/WBC, WorldPerks Elite, SkyTeam Elite Plus, SkyTeam Elite", clearly making a distinction between the two lines. Sometimes they even announce that Elites may board at any time.
You also contradicted yourself: first you made the point that if there is no sign, then there's no rule, but then you talk about courtesy and how people should follow these unwritten rules. So, which is it?
All I am asking is that you be consistent if you're making a counter-argument. It is either ok to have Elite perks and advantages over other pax or it isn't. Let's not pick and choose which perks are right and which are wrong based on logic that we just make up as we go. We either expect ALL the rules to be posted, or we accept that some rules that are not posted (including courtesy) apply.
You don't need to have all or none. In the real world, very few things are black and white. So don't give me this oh, well, elite perks are elite perks and you either agree with them or you don't. Sounds like, "you're either with us or against us." Unbelievable. You know what? I get a lot of privileges and rights for being an American. But guess what? I don't agree with EVERY SINGLE law on the books. I think the law against murder are good. Other laws? Not so good. In a number of states-including mine-for example, people of the opposite sex can't live together. It's against the law. I know of lot of people breaking this law. I'm not turning them in. I think it's an outdated law and should be off the books.
All-or-none thinking is the sign of a simple mind.
"Let's not pick and choose which perks are right and wrong based on logic that's made up as we go."
Logic isn't made up. You can have faulty logic, but you can't make logic up. It's the process of deducting or inferring a result. You can't make "Logic" up anymore than you can make "thinking" up. And deciding what is "right" or "wrong" isn't a logical decision; it's a moral decision. Deciding what is against the rules or complies with the rules is a logical decision.
And if you can't see the relationship between showing courtesy to others in everyday situations and showing courtesy to them in boarding situations, I think you need to learn how to analyze better. See, when I was talking about the other situations, I was using analogies to point out how people follow unwritten behaviors in order to have a working, relative harmonious society. Likewise, even though you CAN
And while the signs say "elite boarding" and "general boarding" they don't say WHEN the boarding is to take place. So it's easy to infer that when the elite people are called up, they walk on the right side, over the red carpet, and then everyone else who is later called up walks on the left side.
Why would people know that eiltes can board anytime? Half of this thread is dedicated to whining about how NW employees don't even honor that regulation half the time.
I never made the point about how if there was no sign, there was no rule. Nice try at a straw man, though. I made the point that if there was no sign, there was no way people, ordinary people who don't pour over their WP membership (if they ever are WP members), those who have to generally board, would know that elites are actually given the right (at least technically) to board first, even if they miss the "elite boarding call".
So, in that instance, it's considerate to respect that ignorance and get in line with everyone else.
And as far as my going to a library: I wrote that post in a library. There was no visible sign against talking loud. I used to work in a library. Again, there was no sign about talking loud.
But you obviously need to work on your logic if you believed there were red herrings in my post.
I don't want to talk about this anymore. I'm not going to reply, and you can go on with your excessive feelings of entitlement. Just don't expect everyone to love you when you cut in line.