oliver2002

OK, my kids are in bed now so time to type the answer to the questions you handed me earlier to ask.

In general the A380 was fitted with the 'old' recaro C simply because it was to enter service a few years earlier than it finally did. The orders were placed and the resources allocated to launch the new seat with the B748i, which was originally due to be delivered the end of 2010.

The LX seat development had started before the new C project and was well under way in 2007 when the actual kickoff came. The LX seat was considered, but rejected because

- the manufacturer hit a serious performance problem
- had limited capacities to support a refit schedule
- didn't have a dense enough layout for the 748i (the system seems to be only good for A330/340 crosssections), and
- in tests the customers (supposedly) felt unhappy with it (???)

The account manager from B/E for LH Group and the *A project was at the stand and we talked for a while. He swears (and I sort of believe him) that the seat was made from scratch as LH had many many modifications to the Diamond in order to fulfill the wish list that it was like starting from scratch.

oliver2002

Privacy: even though the product was termed 'a hotel in the sky' at the public presentation, on asking about the privacy part the statements were (and I talked to two managers to cross check) that LH tried to translate the open philosophy that also shows in the SEN lounges, ie the C cabin should be as if you are sitting in a lounge. (Bit my tounge to stop myself asking if they has the FRA A26 SEN lunge in mind, I suppose they meant something like the FRA B SEN lounge).

It was very evident they are/were terrified to loose real estate to wide open or 1-2-1 concepts, which explains the unusual footsie /\ /\ /\ arrangement in the 748i and the squeezed || /\ || sides in the A330/340. Marketing voiced sentiments of doubt how some cultures would accept the /\.

Shareholder

Not as bad as UA's but agree about the privacy issue...though at least there is more space at the head unlike on UA. I'd have hoped for something more akin to the LX/NH/OZ style of seating. However appreciate the elucidation Olivier.

Noticed the new amenity kit which looks quite swank compared to the current disappointing cases in both classes.

HadesNL

Looking at post 73 at the 2nd picture i can count 3rows x 4 business seats which are normaly 2 rows of total 4 first seats. Then after emergency exit, let's say the same amount of space at least ( could be more as the 747-800 upper deck is longer) so that would also be at least 3rows x 4 business seats. So the upperdeck must hold at least 24 business seats.....

And then there is still the main deck and 747-800 upper deck extension so i guess LH can keep the same amount of business seats as on the 747-400 refit and even more on the 747-800.

mamb0

Hm, I am underwhelmed. I never liked Volkswagen. And with regards to footsie and the apparent lack of privacy, they could convince me with either a seat block or a seat hot guarantee. Your seat stays either empty or someone hot and sexy and single from the opposite sex is placed in your neighboring seat. Otherwise I will prefer other options.

oliver2002

Delivery plan:
5 748i are (supposed) to come in 2012 fitted with new F, new C and new (A380 like) Y, all based in FRA. MUC will get 3 A330 starting end April at one each per month also fitted with new F/C/Y.

They seemed to pretty proud of the fact to have the largest C cabin of all carriers (nearly a 100 seats in the 748i and A380)

Retrofit:
The A330 will go first in winter and will get a complete F/C/Y refit, followed by A340 -600?) to achieve a 40% conversion to new C by summer (august?) 2013. This retrofit will also mean that the A330/340 will get the new RAVE IFE.

The 744 and A380 will be the last to get the refit. The two A380s getting delivered after the current batch will have the new C and RAVE IFE, following which the refit of the 8 existing A380s can begin. Since LH went for the line check method of maintenance, the A380s will no longer come in for the long D checks, ie no downtime for retrofits.

All refits will happen as part of downtime due to checks, but they insisted (nearly) all aircraft will be retrofitted by end 2014. 'Nearly' because of the A380 situation described above and the 744s zombies that are supposed to go to the scrapyard once the 748i rolls in.

My question about why not keep the zombie 744s alive to speed up the conversion process was gently avoided. It seems SCORE14 is hanging above everything (or this was maybe even dealt with in CLIMB11) and the 10 744s have to be out of the fleet by end 2013. Taking the A380 out of service would play havoc with the financials and deploying 744s on A340/330 routes would add capacity that is hard to sell.

HadesNL

quote They seemed to pretty proud of the fact to have the largest C cabin of all carriers (nearly a 100 seats in the 748i and A380)

Whoa! That's a lot, you can see that's a cash cow! Hopefully they plan to install an adequate amount of toilets aswell, imagine the morning rush to the washroom with 99 others before breakfast! Now it's already a bit of madhouse especially on the 747-400!

So if LX & SN has staggered, LH has the V-shape, i wonder what OS will get on their 777s?

oliver2002

There will be 32 in the upper deck... the UD on a 748i is streched by 4.1 metres compared to the 744. The B section is also stretched, hence the big C even though the new seat means the density reduced. The D section is longer by 1.5m so more economy, total of 362. LH had worse, the old old cradle C on the second batch of 744 deliveries (AFAIK 2002) to replace the 742 had 390 pax. (310Y/64C/16F)

Jasper2009

First of all, thanks Oliver for sharing all the photos and your feedback!^

I´m also somewhat disappointed by the results. My expectations weren´t very high to begin with, but seriously, LH spends several years and millions of Euros on R&D and this is the best they can come up with?

"Starting from scratch" sounds as if LH had been open-minded to create a better customer experience.

Realistically there are the following "major" C/J product groups:

1) anything in a 1-2-1 config (á la SQ) just isn´t feasable for LH
2) While the new staggered LX config is nice, it´s designed for the various Airbus aircrafts and can´t easily be used for the 747
3) Any 2-4-2 config á la UA/BA with half of the seats facing backwards certainly wouldn´t be considered an improvement by most pax (except for the flat bed)

So realistically we´re left with the following options:

4) something "creative" á la the new NH C seats (not very likely)
5) pods á la NZ/AC
6) a more traditional layout in a 2-2-2 config

As nice as options 4 or 5 would be, unfortunately LH´s strategy regarding the C product has pretty much been "which is the worst C product we can get away with?" and not "let´s create a good (but not ridiculous) product that will put us into a good competitive position for the next years"

So with a 2-2-2 config how many decisions do they have to make?

- slightly angled vs. straight
- where to put the feet
- how big should the TV screen be?
- additional features like place to put your glasses etc.

While the new seat obviously is slightly better than the current seat, I think LH has failed miserably. Once they´ve implemented the new seat they´ll again be 10+ years behind their major competitors. Not sure why they´d celebrate this as a major achievement.

oliver2002

Indeed and the cash cow is supposed to give plenty of milk to pay for the shiny new planes. Bischof said that LH itself has a revenue target of +2.3 billion € by 2015. He said half of total revenue is in business, on long haul even more, which supposedly the benchmark in the industry.

HadesNL

I forgot to thank you for posting all this information, most obliged!

It will be a while before new C will be abundent so i guess we can let our imaginations run amok what i am curious though is the staff to passenger ratio, obvious with more seats it will be harder work for the crew. Will they increase the number of cabin staff ?

oliver2002

You betcha... LH crew have representation

Matze20111984

Which plane will have more seats than it already has today?

oliver2002

To the questions:

I tried to play footsie with Bjoernstrom, a fellow mod who suddenly showed up, and the two of us (both 177-180cm tall and of medium build as you can see from the pictures) really didn't get in the way. I personally don't see a problem there although the flickr videos look bad....

Getting in and out: the LH ladies insisted its no biggie and should be fairly simple, so I pretended to be really clumsy climbing in and out. The movement is around the knees and below it, if you are careful it should be OK. See pics 65-69 in the sequence.

fqtv_kraven

I went to the ITB today, the seat is disgusting. Too narrow (even narrower than the new LX C seat) and no comments about the foot space...



The new AB seat is much more comfortable.