One Mile at a Time [OMaaT] discussions [merged]
Jun 18, 2015, 9:16 am
#391
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
Posts: 58,623
So, after a OMaaT post critical of UA for having the nerve to divert to Goose Bay, now we have this gem which acts as if El Al is just a greedy, greedy money hungry company with no regard for its passengers for returning a flight back to Tel Aviv rather than diverting to Europe.
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.c...-theyre-cheap/
Is there any action an airline can take in these kinds of situations that wont whip the bloggers up into a faux-outrage frenzy?
How on earth would diverting somewhere in Europe which may or may not have El Al staff even present be more convenient for the passengers? How many people would have the necessary visas to enter whatever country they've just diverted to? Returning to TLV seems like by far the most reasonable choice here given Lucky's correct assertion that no passengers were ever in danger. The extra 4-5 hours of flying to return will likely be more than made up for in the convenience of returning to an airport with airline staff to support, and with most passengers having some kind of connections on the ground.
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.c...-theyre-cheap/
Is there any action an airline can take in these kinds of situations that wont whip the bloggers up into a faux-outrage frenzy?
How on earth would diverting somewhere in Europe which may or may not have El Al staff even present be more convenient for the passengers? How many people would have the necessary visas to enter whatever country they've just diverted to? Returning to TLV seems like by far the most reasonable choice here given Lucky's correct assertion that no passengers were ever in danger. The extra 4-5 hours of flying to return will likely be more than made up for in the convenience of returning to an airport with airline staff to support, and with most passengers having some kind of connections on the ground.
As to El Al's decision, my UA flight was recently diverted from IAD to RIC due to thunderstorms at the field and our plane being bingo fuel (pilot's term, not mine). RIC is an outsourced UA station that handles a few RJs a day.
It was an UTTER DEBACLE. We sat on the tarmac for nearly 3 hours until someone could find the Million Air sub-contractor to the outsourced contractor to refuel the plane.
I can only imagine what a mess it would have been if it was a mechanical issue rather than a gas stop.
So, yes, El Al 100% made the right decision. And it was not because they are 'cheap,' but because they were doing the best they could for their customers.
Jun 18, 2015, 10:21 am
#392
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVPG
Posts: 117
He seems a bit clueless as to how implying that an Israeli/Jewish airline is cheap (which is the url if not the headline) is not perpetuating a stereotype.
As to El Al's decision, my UA flight was recently diverted from IAD to RIC due to thunderstorms at the field and our plane being bingo fuel (pilot's term, not mine). RIC is an outsourced UA station that handles a few RJs a day.
It was an UTTER DEBACLE. We sat on the tarmac for nearly 3 hours until someone could find the Million Air sub-contractor to the outsourced contractor to refuel the plane.
I can only imagine what a mess it would have been if it was a mechanical issue rather than a gas stop.
So, yes, El Al 100% made the right decision. And it was not because they are 'cheap,' but because they were doing the best they could for their customers.
As to El Al's decision, my UA flight was recently diverted from IAD to RIC due to thunderstorms at the field and our plane being bingo fuel (pilot's term, not mine). RIC is an outsourced UA station that handles a few RJs a day.
It was an UTTER DEBACLE. We sat on the tarmac for nearly 3 hours until someone could find the Million Air sub-contractor to the outsourced contractor to refuel the plane.
I can only imagine what a mess it would have been if it was a mechanical issue rather than a gas stop.
So, yes, El Al 100% made the right decision. And it was not because they are 'cheap,' but because they were doing the best they could for their customers.
I do have to admit though, the comments on this post calling lucky an anti-Semite because of it gave me a good chuckle. Oblivious? Maybe. Anti-semite/Nazi/worse than Hitler? Now I think we're reaching a bit.
Jun 18, 2015, 11:07 am
#393
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,678
He seems a bit clueless as to how implying that an Israeli/Jewish airline is cheap (which is the url if not the headline) is not perpetuating a stereotype.
As to El Al's decision, my UA flight was recently diverted from IAD to RIC due to thunderstorms at the field and our plane being bingo fuel (pilot's term, not mine). RIC is an outsourced UA station that handles a few RJs a day.
It was an UTTER DEBACLE. We sat on the tarmac for nearly 3 hours until someone could find the Million Air sub-contractor to the outsourced contractor to refuel the plane.
I can only imagine what a mess it would have been if it was a mechanical issue rather than a gas stop.
So, yes, El Al 100% made the right decision. And it was not because they are 'cheap,' but because they were doing the best they could for their customers.
As to El Al's decision, my UA flight was recently diverted from IAD to RIC due to thunderstorms at the field and our plane being bingo fuel (pilot's term, not mine). RIC is an outsourced UA station that handles a few RJs a day.
It was an UTTER DEBACLE. We sat on the tarmac for nearly 3 hours until someone could find the Million Air sub-contractor to the outsourced contractor to refuel the plane.
I can only imagine what a mess it would have been if it was a mechanical issue rather than a gas stop.
So, yes, El Al 100% made the right decision. And it was not because they are 'cheap,' but because they were doing the best they could for their customers.
OMAAT's post is based on one excerpt from that news website that only states:
Sources in the aviation industry believe that the decision to turn the airliner back instead of landing it in Europe was not prompted by safety reasons alone, but by financial reasons as well. An emergency landing in Europe would have required El Al to send a replacement engine to Europe and to pay for the passengers’ stay in hotels until the plane is repaired.
"sources" in the industry "believe"... yet the post is presented as hard and fast fact.
Except for pure speculation, OMAAT didn't establish that El Al made its decision solely, or primarily, to "save money". Even if Option A is less expensive than Option B, that doesn't necessarily mean that cost was the main factor in one's decision making.
Despite being requested in comments, OMAAT doesn't elaborate on how the return to home base is a significant inconvenience by comparison. As pointed at upthread and in comments to the post, there are many reasons why diverting to an alternate would not have been more convenient for passengers, nor delivered them to their final destination any sooner.
Maybe cost was the main driver here, maybe it wasn't. I don't know for sure and neither does OMAAT - or if so, actual evidence of that wasn't presented in the post.
For a blog that likes to portray its writer(s) as aviation enthusiast and self-taught expert, it's curious that the post didn't walk through the other factors that were likely a part of the decision making process.
As for the tone-deaf phraseology of the post, commenter LarryInNYC puts it well:
LarryInNYC says:
June 18, 2015 at 11:15 am
Ben: the criticism stems from your statement
“It sure seems like El Al was just being cheap here, . . ., even if it was significantly more inconvenient for passengers.”
In this case you associated a Jewish stereotype with the flag carrier of the Jewish state. A number of people took that as a sideways attempt to endorse the stereotype. This used to be called a “dog whistle” and I believe the current term of art is a “micro aggression”. Did you realize it as you were writing it? Only you know that. If I had written that phrase I would have been guilty as charged since I would have been aware of the stereotype and its association.
In an anonymous internet forum like your comments section you’re always going to find people prone to taking offense. And, whether intentionally or not, you provide plenty of opportunities (your use of the phrase “those people” in conjunction with NYC – Miami flights, your shaming of the AA gate agent by name, and your frequent use of video clips of black women immediately come to mind).
Do you care if you give offense, inadvertently or not? If so, you need to edit your writing better. If not, you can just ignore the comments in this post. I strongly suspect that there’s commercial value in your not caring since offended people are more likely to comment and the more traffic you have the better.
June 18, 2015 at 11:15 am
Ben: the criticism stems from your statement
“It sure seems like El Al was just being cheap here, . . ., even if it was significantly more inconvenient for passengers.”
In this case you associated a Jewish stereotype with the flag carrier of the Jewish state. A number of people took that as a sideways attempt to endorse the stereotype. This used to be called a “dog whistle” and I believe the current term of art is a “micro aggression”. Did you realize it as you were writing it? Only you know that. If I had written that phrase I would have been guilty as charged since I would have been aware of the stereotype and its association.
In an anonymous internet forum like your comments section you’re always going to find people prone to taking offense. And, whether intentionally or not, you provide plenty of opportunities (your use of the phrase “those people” in conjunction with NYC – Miami flights, your shaming of the AA gate agent by name, and your frequent use of video clips of black women immediately come to mind).
Do you care if you give offense, inadvertently or not? If so, you need to edit your writing better. If not, you can just ignore the comments in this post. I strongly suspect that there’s commercial value in your not caring since offended people are more likely to comment and the more traffic you have the better.
Jun 18, 2015, 1:35 pm
#394
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: UA-1K, MM, Hilton-Diamond, Marriott-Titanium
Posts: 4,432
Blog posts, by whomever, that are written as if the writer is an "expert" should be subject to more scrutiny I think. To speak to todays post on OMAAT, the writer has never worked for an airline and unless you work for an airline, not just fly an airline you do not know what goes in to the decisions that made. Ops has to interface with maintenance and with the flight crew, ground crew, etc etc etc. To say that El Al was "cheap" minimizes the efforts that go into the decision that was made.
It was a poor choice of words to say the least and if he used this word with other airlines to describe this type of irrops then I would presume its a word he likes and he is just oblivious as to how some would react.
Has he used the word cheap to describe other incidents?
It was a poor choice of words to say the least and if he used this word with other airlines to describe this type of irrops then I would presume its a word he likes and he is just oblivious as to how some would react.
Has he used the word cheap to describe other incidents?
Jun 18, 2015, 5:34 pm
#395
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 3,317
Blog posts, by whomever, that are written as if the writer is an "expert" should be subject to more scrutiny I think. To speak to todays post on OMAAT, the writer has never worked for an airline and unless you work for an airline, not just fly an airline you do not know what goes in to the decisions that made. Ops has to interface with maintenance and with the flight crew, ground crew, etc etc etc. To say that El Al was "cheap" minimizes the efforts that go into the decision that was made.
It was a poor choice of words to say the least and if he used this word with other airlines to describe this type of irrops then I would presume its a word he likes and he is just oblivious as to how some would react.
Has he used the word cheap to describe other incidents?
It was a poor choice of words to say the least and if he used this word with other airlines to describe this type of irrops then I would presume its a word he likes and he is just oblivious as to how some would react.
Has he used the word cheap to describe other incidents?
Call yourself an expert, then you walk the line of being under an 'expert microscope'. If you know so much about aviation business, ditto.
Give me a break. Today's post was in very poor taste, and the fact he (seemingly) didn't realize it made it all the more inane.
Yet again, Ben playing aviation CEO drives me NUTS.
Jun 21, 2015, 2:53 pm
#397
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,737
It is interesting how Lucky is pushing Delta cards:
"I rag on the SkyMiles program a lot. I don’t have a lot of faith in the future of SkyMiles, because if the people running the program had their way it would go fully revenue based tomorrow. And while I see it happening eventually, I highly doubt it will happen in the short term.
In the meantime, those earning SkyMiles through credit card spend with the goal of redeeming for international premium cabins are arguably in a better position this year than ever before."
I got away from Delta back in ~2010 and haven't looked back. How useful are these miles once you acquire them? I'm just curious if Lucky is pushing cards that are not beneficial to his readers. I remember it being very difficult to find low level business class awards. I think the only value I got was flying business on China Southern to get to Asia so I could then fly on to Australia and fly back using Virgin.
"I rag on the SkyMiles program a lot. I don’t have a lot of faith in the future of SkyMiles, because if the people running the program had their way it would go fully revenue based tomorrow. And while I see it happening eventually, I highly doubt it will happen in the short term.
In the meantime, those earning SkyMiles through credit card spend with the goal of redeeming for international premium cabins are arguably in a better position this year than ever before."
I got away from Delta back in ~2010 and haven't looked back. How useful are these miles once you acquire them? I'm just curious if Lucky is pushing cards that are not beneficial to his readers. I remember it being very difficult to find low level business class awards. I think the only value I got was flying business on China Southern to get to Asia so I could then fly on to Australia and fly back using Virgin.
Jun 21, 2015, 4:40 pm
#399
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: VPS
Programs: IHG Diamond, Delta PM, Hilton Gold, Accor Gold, Marriott Silver
Posts: 7,269
It varies pretty wildly based on your usual home airport. There are some places and routes where it's actually easier to find low level redemption options than United or American and others where the Sky Peso moniker is a very apt description.
Jun 22, 2015, 2:31 pm
#401
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: BWI
Posts: 1,782
I'm not sure that what you're saying matters. None of these are dead for people new to signing up for credit cards, but only for those that have really done so in the past (at least I think that's the case).
I would think that his target audience is the newer person and not those that have done this a lot in the past.
I would think that his target audience is the newer person and not those that have done this a lot in the past.
Jun 23, 2015, 3:39 pm
#402
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
Posts: 58,623
I'm not sure that what you're saying matters. None of these are dead for people new to signing up for credit cards, but only for those that have really done so in the past (at least I think that's the case).
I would think that his target audience is the newer person and not those that have done this a lot in the past.
I would think that his target audience is the newer person and not those that have done this a lot in the past.
But I'm sure this particular niche generated a lot of affiliate applications from churners.
That's a lot of revenue to replace.
Jun 23, 2015, 9:14 pm
#403
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: ORF
Programs: Amex Plat, AA, BA Silver, Marriott Plat, Choice Gold, HHonors Gold, IHG Diamond
Posts: 3,749
OK, my post got here because of the "luck" of the draw--this thread was at the top of the board while GTL's was farther down--but my comment applies to both blogs: hasn't there been a noticeable absence of a certain "pesos" term the last several weeks?
I can't imagine why. . .
See I have respect for folks who call a spade, a spade although I might not agree with their characterization, but it's hard to hold that respect when they stop when it fits their purposes to do so.
I can't imagine why. . .
See I have respect for folks who call a spade, a spade although I might not agree with their characterization, but it's hard to hold that respect when they stop when it fits their purposes to do so.
Jun 23, 2015, 9:54 pm
#404
Join Date: May 2004
Location: LAX
Posts: 1,849
Of course, it doesn't matter. That's why there is 10 direct Delta card links
in this new today's post explaining how "valuable" Delta miles are:
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.c...kymiles-worth/
>double facepalm<
in this new today's post explaining how "valuable" Delta miles are:
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.c...kymiles-worth/
>double facepalm<
Jun 24, 2015, 7:06 am
#405
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,678
OK, my post got here because of the "luck" of the draw--this thread was at the top of the board while GTL's was farther down--but my comment applies to both blogs: hasn't there been a noticeable absence of a certain "pesos" term the last several weeks?
I can't imagine why. . .
See I have respect for folks who call a spade, a spade although I might not agree with their characterization, but it's hard to hold that respect when they stop when it fits their purposes to do so.
I can't imagine why. . .
See I have respect for folks who call a spade, a spade although I might not agree with their characterization, but it's hard to hold that respect when they stop when it fits their purposes to do so.
It’s an interesting question, since SkyMiles are sort of a polarizing points currency. We love to rag on them and even have nicknames for them, but as of now they do still have some unique value propositions.
ABC says:
June 23, 2015 at 6:24 pm
In short, the value of Skymiles have been dramatically improved since 2010 when you valued them at 1.0. That’s amazing given (i) consumer price inflation has been ~10-15% in the last five years AND in the last five years Delta has devalued it’s Skymiles program multiple times. Well done Delta!
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.c...r-point-worth/
June 23, 2015 at 6:24 pm
In short, the value of Skymiles have been dramatically improved since 2010 when you valued them at 1.0. That’s amazing given (i) consumer price inflation has been ~10-15% in the last five years AND in the last five years Delta has devalued it’s Skymiles program multiple times. Well done Delta!
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.c...r-point-worth/