DL Diamond still best in class??
Sep 3, 2009, 11:25 am
#76
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Beverly Hills, CA
Programs: DL DM & 2MM, UA-PE, AA
Posts: 1,074
What I am saying is that if you can charge all your business expenses (cell, phone, utilities, internet, office supplies, ...) and your home expenses (utilities, internet, ...) you can make Elite much faster on DL.
Sep 3, 2009, 11:53 am
#77
Join Date: May 2008
Programs: DL AA UA
Posts: 2,359
OK... I have been successful at not jumping into these discussion; but now I am, so here it goes.
You can’t simply just compare top tier for DL to top tier of UA and AA alone. It is apparent, that neither one of those programs offer the depth of benefits to ALL levels of their FF program that DL does. I think one element that is missing from the discussion is the issue of affordability, which, I think, was explained well at our meeting with DL in June. The reason that AA can afford a broader use of the SWUs is that they do not offer unlimited complimentary upgrades to the lower levels of their FF program. So, in order to compare the Delta program to AA and UA, you need to consider the correct positioning and trade-offs.
There is only so much the loyalty program can cost Delta or any airline on the revenue side, and every item has a cost associated with it. We aren't armed with all those details, but, I feel very confident (hint) that to expand the use of SWUs we would have to give up something else to pay for it. Of course, as members of the program we would want it all, but realistically we aren’t going to get that.
Delta would need to take away unlimited complimentary upgrades from the Silver and Gold level to afford the wider class level use of SWUs at the top tier. Are we willing to make that trade-off? Diamonds might think that is good, but the Silver and Gold members would disagree… hence the reason I do not think we will ever reach a total consensus across the board. If you were in the driver’s seat - What trade off would you make - broader upgrades across all levels or broader use of SWUs at the top level?
You can’t simply just compare top tier for DL to top tier of UA and AA alone. It is apparent, that neither one of those programs offer the depth of benefits to ALL levels of their FF program that DL does. I think one element that is missing from the discussion is the issue of affordability, which, I think, was explained well at our meeting with DL in June. The reason that AA can afford a broader use of the SWUs is that they do not offer unlimited complimentary upgrades to the lower levels of their FF program. So, in order to compare the Delta program to AA and UA, you need to consider the correct positioning and trade-offs.
There is only so much the loyalty program can cost Delta or any airline on the revenue side, and every item has a cost associated with it. We aren't armed with all those details, but, I feel very confident (hint) that to expand the use of SWUs we would have to give up something else to pay for it. Of course, as members of the program we would want it all, but realistically we aren’t going to get that.
Delta would need to take away unlimited complimentary upgrades from the Silver and Gold level to afford the wider class level use of SWUs at the top tier. Are we willing to make that trade-off? Diamonds might think that is good, but the Silver and Gold members would disagree… hence the reason I do not think we will ever reach a total consensus across the board. If you were in the driver’s seat - What trade off would you make - broader upgrades across all levels or broader use of SWUs at the top level?
You see, there really isn't a zero-sum game except when DL feels it is to their advantage to use such an argument. As some of the top mileage flyers, there are many intangibles that may not be readily priced in whatever models DL is using. For example, if DL would free up SWUs, then many would, indeed, become more loyal (as in economically, not necessarily emotionally) customers. That would not only drive one customer's business, but that of those in their footprint. Uber loyal DMs who have a seat at the table where travel decisons are made corporately and personally would have incentive to drive those decisions toward DL, rather than being ambivilent or slightly positive or negative. You don't need hard data to verify that fact (although it wouldn't surprise me if such data exits), it is human nature.
atldlff, you are a wise and even tempered person who's opinions and posts I value and one who's contributions to this community are obvious and appreciated. Please don't let DL management's "give and take" arguments go unchecked.
Sep 3, 2009, 12:08 pm
#78
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hopefully on a plane...
Posts: 6,580
Neither have I..... Though I don't really feel like spending miles for Y.
Sep 3, 2009, 12:10 pm
#79
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
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Posts: 102,095
Sep 3, 2009, 12:17 pm
#80
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: EAU
Programs: UA 1K, CO Plat, NW Plat, Marriott Premiere Plat, SPG Plat, Priority Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 4,712
Basically, DL, AA and UA *ALL* offer upgrades AS AVAILABLE. The percentage of upgrades received across all elite levels is dependent on the percentage of F seats available compared to the percentage of travelers who are elite.
The only difference between the UA/AA methods and the DL method is priority. In the DL method, top-tier elites have higher success than bottom-tier elites, because a 25k elite is only going to get an upgrade after ALL higher level elites on that flight have gotten upgrades. Conversely, on AA and UA, if a low-level elite spends their upgrade certs, they are far more likely to make their upgrade than a FO on DL, because UA's (and to a lesser extent, AAs) upper-level elites don't ALL have to be given upgrades first.
So, when looking at the entire elite structure, on AA and UA, the 25k elites are actually BETTER off at UA/AA, at the expense of the 50k elites at AA and all higher level elites at UA.
But in sum total, "unlimited complimentary upgrades" doesn't make DL's program better than UA/AA overall, although it will make it better (or worse) for SOME elites, but it's an even trade.
Sep 3, 2009, 12:18 pm
#81
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Gone to Carolina in my mind
Programs: AA ExpMM, DL 2MM, IHG Spire/RA
Posts: 1,986
Man this board is unbelievable. This was a great thread to look at the differences between the AA program now that they have made some changes and are running a DEQM promo and the new DL program. I feel responsible because I shot my Friend GTITAN a note knowing that he is an AA expert (NW refugee) and always does an amazing job with comparative analysis. Seems like the whole spirit of the original thread and the analysis has once again been tossed out the window for plain old bickering.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING AWARE OF THE OTHER PROGRAM NUANCES.
It does not have to be about which AL is better overall (if there is one) but rather about who is better for you individually. That, by definition, should never regress to back and forth fighting.
Just as an example: GTITAN has been over at AA for a while now and still regularly posts to the NW board. You do not see these bash-fests erupting over there with him...what is it about DL that makes some of you so protective?? It is really a bit strange..It is an AIRLINE. Do you people fight about Von's vs. Albertsons or Shaw's Vs Stop and Shop (you can tell I live on both coasts
)
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING AWARE OF THE OTHER PROGRAM NUANCES.
It does not have to be about which AL is better overall (if there is one) but rather about who is better for you individually. That, by definition, should never regress to back and forth fighting.
Just as an example: GTITAN has been over at AA for a while now and still regularly posts to the NW board. You do not see these bash-fests erupting over there with him...what is it about DL that makes some of you so protective?? It is really a bit strange..It is an AIRLINE. Do you people fight about Von's vs. Albertsons or Shaw's Vs Stop and Shop (you can tell I live on both coasts
)For this situation, I can only (sadly) blame the moderators for being too permissive with off topic posts. I know it is a thankless (and payless) job they do, but..... well, we can see the results of leniency, every topic thread ends up at the same place.
Sep 3, 2009, 12:30 pm
#82
Moderator: Hilton Honors forums
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
Posts: 24,997
This thread would have been fine (and started out quite well and thoughtful), except for some unhappy members who persistantly vent their spleens in the form of off topic flamebait posts. This leads to off topic rebuttals, off topic nit picking, and eventually our current trajectory.
For this situation, I can only (sadly) blame the moderators for being too permissive with off topic posts. I know it is a thankless (and payless) job they do, but..... well, we can see the results of leniency, every topic thread ends up at the same place.
For this situation, I can only (sadly) blame the moderators for being too permissive with off topic posts. I know it is a thankless (and payless) job they do, but..... well, we can see the results of leniency, every topic thread ends up at the same place.
How about we discuss this in the http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...vacuation.html thread?
Sep 3, 2009, 12:42 pm
#84
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: check swarm
Programs: DL DM & 2MM, SPG/Bonvoid LT Titanium, Hyatt Globalist, $tarbucks Titanium
Posts: 14,404
Ah, they have you convinced of their faulty premise that to add something, something must be taken away. They must have gotten their MBAs at institutions dominated by their accounting professors. If that premise were true, then what has DL taken away by adding the DM tier? For that matter, what did DL add when unlimited award changes were lessened to two per year?
You see, there really isn't a zero-sum game except when DL feels it is to their advantage to use such an argument. As some of the top mileage flyers, there are many intangibles that may not be readily priced in whatever models DL is using. For example, if DL would free up SWUs, then many would, indeed, become more loyal (as in economically, not necessarily emotionally) customers. That would not only drive one customer's business, but that of those in their footprint. Uber loyal DMs who have a seat at the table where travel decisons are made corporately and personally would have incentive to drive those decisions toward DL, rather than being ambivilent or slightly positive or negative. You don't need hard data to verify that fact (although it wouldn't surprise me if such data exits), it is human nature.
atldlff, you are a wise and even tempered person who's opinions and posts I value and one who's contributions to this community are obvious and appreciated. Please don't let DL management's "give and take" arguments go unchecked.
You see, there really isn't a zero-sum game except when DL feels it is to their advantage to use such an argument. As some of the top mileage flyers, there are many intangibles that may not be readily priced in whatever models DL is using. For example, if DL would free up SWUs, then many would, indeed, become more loyal (as in economically, not necessarily emotionally) customers. That would not only drive one customer's business, but that of those in their footprint. Uber loyal DMs who have a seat at the table where travel decisons are made corporately and personally would have incentive to drive those decisions toward DL, rather than being ambivilent or slightly positive or negative. You don't need hard data to verify that fact (although it wouldn't surprise me if such data exits), it is human nature.
atldlff, you are a wise and even tempered person who's opinions and posts I value and one who's contributions to this community are obvious and appreciated. Please don't let DL management's "give and take" arguments go unchecked.
Sep 3, 2009, 12:44 pm
#85
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: in transit
Programs: Delta DM, *A Plat
Posts: 322
Great comparison!
However, you forgot one key important factor: Allliance.
Let's face it, Skyteam sucks. You can't redeem for first class and, the alliance members are generally subpar compared with OneWorld and Star.
I mean, both *A and 1W have industry leading airlines like Singapore, ANA, Cathay Pacific, Swiss, British, etc...Skyteam? Air France?
As much as I like Delta, the alliance factor alone makes me go back to UA and considering AA. The 125% won't make a difference when the alliance members themselves are not attractive.
However, you forgot one key important factor: Allliance.
Let's face it, Skyteam sucks. You can't redeem for first class and, the alliance members are generally subpar compared with OneWorld and Star.
I mean, both *A and 1W have industry leading airlines like Singapore, ANA, Cathay Pacific, Swiss, British, etc...Skyteam? Air France?
As much as I like Delta, the alliance factor alone makes me go back to UA and considering AA. The 125% won't make a difference when the alliance members themselves are not attractive.
Sep 3, 2009, 12:51 pm
#86
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: ORF
Programs: Delta Diamond Charter Member/1.8MM, IHG Spire Elite
Posts: 876
Sep 3, 2009, 12:52 pm
#87
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hopefully on a plane...
Posts: 6,580
I would guarantee that they have been engaging customers... from personal experience. Though you may not have been there, the DL DO in ATL included a night of meeting & greeting and bouncing ideas off of many of us either in the large group session, or in individual conversations.
I know that the PMU was at the center of the discussions that I had. DL had to make a decision to keep them the same, slight changes to current, radically alter them without any customer giveback or require that giveback (i.e. Q,H,K + $$$ and PMU). It's become obvious that their decision was slight changes (day of usability if ANY seat is available in J).
I would have to say that the rollover MQM's is not only extremely creative but outside the box as well. It's NOT something that NW had, was it? Are there any competitors offering it either?
Sep 3, 2009, 12:56 pm
#88
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Los Angeles & Orange County, CA
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No matter where you go, there is a better airline in OneWorld or Star Alliance that is better than Skyteam.
Sep 3, 2009, 1:26 pm
#89
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: Fallen Plats, ex-WN CP, DYKWIW; still a Hilton Diamond & Club Cholula™ R.I.P. Super Plats
Posts: 25,415
The rollover would be a much brighter idea if they'd fix the fundamental problems with DM.
Sep 3, 2009, 1:39 pm
#90
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: in transit
Programs: Delta DM, *A Plat
Posts: 322
IMO, and I think others will agree, South African (Star Alliance) easily blows DL/AF/KLM away. In J, the seats are 180 flat. I do like DL's lie flat herringbone, but SA is just as good and the food is far superior. In coach, SA offers 34" pitch throughout, that's the same as UA E+.
No matter where you go, there is a better airline in OneWorld or Star Alliance that is better than Skyteam.
No matter where you go, there is a better airline in OneWorld or Star Alliance that is better than Skyteam.