DL Diamond still best in class??
Sep 2, 2009, 4:09 pm
#31
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CLT
Programs: AA EP, AA AC
Posts: 4,268
FlyAO2 brings up an important point. One thing that I did not expressly point out in my original post (although could be derived from it) and maybe of some interest to folks that like to earn their status by flying a mixed bag of "high" and "low fares" is the following. AA has the EQP system as I noted which has a range from 0.5 to 1.5. "Deep Discount Coach" is 0.5 and "full fare coach" and "business and/or first class" is 1.5 with "normal coach"
being at 1.0. DL-NW does the same thing, but it does so with MQMs, but there is no 0.5 MQMs (as of yet and to be balanced no indication that this is coming for either side
). AA has no multiplier with respect to EQMs/MQMs at all. They are just "miles flown" (subject to a minimum of 500 EQMs for elites).
Accordingly, if you fly a mixed bag of full fare and discount, on the EQM side, you won't see a benefit and may not on the EQP side either because depending how its structured the 1.5x multiplier may be cancelled out by the 0.5 multiplier.
By way of example:
If you fly round trip from JFK-SFO on a DL "M" fare outbound and a "T" fare inbound, you would net the following MQMs (1.5)(2582) + (1)(2582) = 6455 MQMs.
If you do this on AA on a "Y" fare outbound (full fare coach) and an "O" fare inbound (deepest discount coach) you would only get EQMs equal to total miles flown which is 2582*2= 5164 EQMs.
If you look at it on the EQP side, you would get with the "Y" fare (1.5)(2582) + the "O fare" (0.5)(2582) which together is 5164 EQPs.
Accordingly, you would come out "ahead" with DL on this point. I only point this out because when I went to AA as an NW PE, it took me a while to get used to this as I tend to fly a mixed bag of "deep discount" leisure and more "full fare" work.
Again, I hope this helps.
Safe Travels
being at 1.0. DL-NW does the same thing, but it does so with MQMs, but there is no 0.5 MQMs (as of yet and to be balanced no indication that this is coming for either side). AA has no multiplier with respect to EQMs/MQMs at all. They are just "miles flown" (subject to a minimum of 500 EQMs for elites).Accordingly, if you fly a mixed bag of full fare and discount, on the EQM side, you won't see a benefit and may not on the EQP side either because depending how its structured the 1.5x multiplier may be cancelled out by the 0.5 multiplier.
By way of example:
If you fly round trip from JFK-SFO on a DL "M" fare outbound and a "T" fare inbound, you would net the following MQMs (1.5)(2582) + (1)(2582) = 6455 MQMs.
If you do this on AA on a "Y" fare outbound (full fare coach) and an "O" fare inbound (deepest discount coach) you would only get EQMs equal to total miles flown which is 2582*2= 5164 EQMs.
If you look at it on the EQP side, you would get with the "Y" fare (1.5)(2582) + the "O fare" (0.5)(2582) which together is 5164 EQPs.
Accordingly, you would come out "ahead" with DL on this point. I only point this out because when I went to AA as an NW PE, it took me a while to get used to this as I tend to fly a mixed bag of "deep discount" leisure and more "full fare" work.
Again, I hope this helps.
Safe Travels
Last edited by GTITAN; Sep 2, 2009 at 6:27 pm Reason: "clean-up" type stuff (smile)
Sep 2, 2009, 4:15 pm
#32
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hopefully on a plane...
Posts: 6,580
I more often than not find AA award tickets for TATL travel are cheaper in miles (and money) than travel between the same O/D using DL award tickets. The gap has only grown in the past 20 months so as to devalue DL miles relative to AA miles when it comes to TATL redemptions for less miles (and/or less money).
I have seen the ease of acquiring DL miles going up and up and up. With the current AMEX promo, I'm getting a 200% bonus on base miles for all flights.
Sep 2, 2009, 4:16 pm
#33
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hopefully on a plane...
Posts: 6,580
One important point about the AA system is that if you fly a combination of high priced fares (e.g. for work) and low priced fares (e.g. for vacation), the AA system hurts you. By accruing 1.5 points for the higher fares, but only 0.5 pts for the low fares, you end up in a situation where your low fare flights become meaningless if you are trying to earn status with points.
The DL (and most others) method of giving you 150% of MQMs allows your chepo flights (which you earn 100% MQMs on) to actually mean something
The DL (and most others) method of giving you 150% of MQMs allows your chepo flights (which you earn 100% MQMs on) to actually mean something
Sep 2, 2009, 4:25 pm
#35
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NYC
Programs: DL PM, DL MM
Posts: 4,246
FlyAO2 brings up an important point. One thing that I did not expressly point out in my original post (although could be derived from it) and maybe of some interest to folks that like to earn their status by flying a mixed bag of "high" and "low fares" is the following. AA has the EQP system as I noted which has a range from 0.5 to 1.5. "Deep Discount Coach" is 0.5 and "full fare coach" and "business and/or first class" is 1.5 with "normal coach" being at 1.0. DL-NW does the same thing, but it does so with MQMs, but there is no 0.5 MQMs (as of yet and to be balanced no indication that this is coming for either side). AA has no multiplier with respect to EQMs/MQMs at all. They are just "miles flown" (subject to a minimum of 500 EQMs for elites).
Accordingly, if you fly a mixed bag of full fare and discount, on the EQM side, you won't see a benefit and may not on the EQP side either because depending how its structured the 1.5x multiplier may be cancelled out by the 0.5 multiplier.
By way of example:
If you fly round trip from JFK-SFO on a DL "M" fare outbound and a "T" fare inbound, you would net the following EQMs (1.5)(2582) + (1)(2582) = 6455 MQMs.
If you do this on AA on a "Y" fare outbound (full fare coach) and an "O" fare inbound (deepest discount coach) you would only get EQMs equal to total miles flown which is 2582*2= 5164 EQMs.
If you look at it on the EQP side, you would get with the "Y" fare (1.5)(2582) + the "O fare" (0.5)(2582) which together is 5164 EQPs.
Accordingly, you would come out "ahead" with DL on this point. I only point this out because when I went to AA as an NW PE, it took me a while to get used to this as I tend to fly a mixed bag of "deep discount" leisure and more "full fare" work.
Again, I hope this helps.
Safe Travels
being at 1.0. DL-NW does the same thing, but it does so with MQMs, but there is no 0.5 MQMs (as of yet and to be balanced no indication that this is coming for either side). AA has no multiplier with respect to EQMs/MQMs at all. They are just "miles flown" (subject to a minimum of 500 EQMs for elites).Accordingly, if you fly a mixed bag of full fare and discount, on the EQM side, you won't see a benefit and may not on the EQP side either because depending how its structured the 1.5x multiplier may be cancelled out by the 0.5 multiplier.
By way of example:
If you fly round trip from JFK-SFO on a DL "M" fare outbound and a "T" fare inbound, you would net the following EQMs (1.5)(2582) + (1)(2582) = 6455 MQMs.
If you do this on AA on a "Y" fare outbound (full fare coach) and an "O" fare inbound (deepest discount coach) you would only get EQMs equal to total miles flown which is 2582*2= 5164 EQMs.
If you look at it on the EQP side, you would get with the "Y" fare (1.5)(2582) + the "O fare" (0.5)(2582) which together is 5164 EQPs.
Accordingly, you would come out "ahead" with DL on this point. I only point this out because when I went to AA as an NW PE, it took me a while to get used to this as I tend to fly a mixed bag of "deep discount" leisure and more "full fare" work.
Again, I hope this helps.
Safe Travels
GTITAN did a much better job explaining it than I - 1 further annoying AA thing is that you only get 1.25 pts for Business (which is all my company will pay for)
Sep 2, 2009, 4:32 pm
#36
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Atlanta
Programs: DL:PM - Reserve, 2MM, FC, RW; HH: SILVER MR: SILVER
Posts: 1,225
OK... I have been successful at not jumping into these discussion; but now I am, so here it goes.
You can’t simply just compare top tier for DL to top tier of UA and AA alone. It is apparent, that neither one of those programs offer the depth of benefits to ALL levels of their FF program that DL does. I think one element that is missing from the discussion is the issue of affordability, which, I think, was explained well at our meeting with DL in June. The reason that AA can afford a broader use of the SWUs is that they do not offer unlimited complimentary upgrades to the lower levels of their FF program. So, in order to compare the Delta program to AA and UA, you need to consider the correct positioning and trade-offs.
There is only so much the loyalty program can cost Delta or any airline on the revenue side, and every item has a cost associated with it. We aren't armed with all those details, but, I feel very confident (hint) that to expand the use of SWUs we would have to give up something else to pay for it. Of course, as members of the program we would want it all, but realistically we aren’t going to get that.
Delta would need to take away unlimited complimentary upgrades from the Silver and Gold level to afford the wider class level use of SWUs at the top tier. Are we willing to make that trade-off? Diamonds might think that is good, but the Silver and Gold members would disagree… hence the reason I do not think we will ever reach a total consensus across the board. If you were in the driver’s seat - What trade off would you make - broader upgrades across all levels or broader use of SWUs at the top level?
You can’t simply just compare top tier for DL to top tier of UA and AA alone. It is apparent, that neither one of those programs offer the depth of benefits to ALL levels of their FF program that DL does. I think one element that is missing from the discussion is the issue of affordability, which, I think, was explained well at our meeting with DL in June. The reason that AA can afford a broader use of the SWUs is that they do not offer unlimited complimentary upgrades to the lower levels of their FF program. So, in order to compare the Delta program to AA and UA, you need to consider the correct positioning and trade-offs.
There is only so much the loyalty program can cost Delta or any airline on the revenue side, and every item has a cost associated with it. We aren't armed with all those details, but, I feel very confident (hint) that to expand the use of SWUs we would have to give up something else to pay for it. Of course, as members of the program we would want it all, but realistically we aren’t going to get that.
Delta would need to take away unlimited complimentary upgrades from the Silver and Gold level to afford the wider class level use of SWUs at the top tier. Are we willing to make that trade-off? Diamonds might think that is good, but the Silver and Gold members would disagree… hence the reason I do not think we will ever reach a total consensus across the board. If you were in the driver’s seat - What trade off would you make - broader upgrades across all levels or broader use of SWUs at the top level?
Sep 2, 2009, 4:32 pm
#37
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hopefully on a plane...
Posts: 6,580
Sep 2, 2009, 4:38 pm
#38
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hopefully on a plane...
Posts: 6,580
My mom, as a DL silver, prefers the DL model as she can upgrade to F (though she would end up paying for F some way or another, either it be through MY PMU's or my butt in Y).
My partner, a Gold, MUCH prefers DL/NW versus AA/UA because he GETS UPGRADED A LOT! I've taught him the good life and now he won't take Y!
Though, thinking about it, they probably would enjoy clearing with me in F as an EXP....
Last edited by WBurcham; Sep 2, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Sep 2, 2009, 4:50 pm
#39
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Sep 2, 2009, 4:53 pm
#40
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: LAX/BOS/HKG/AMS/SFO...hmm, I need a life.
Programs: United1K, AA ExPlAAt, DL MM/Gold, Hilton Diamond, Avis First
Posts: 13,316
This is a good point that I think has been missed by those of us (yourself included) that are in the top tier.
My mom, as a DL silver, prefers the DL model as she can upgrade to F (though she would end up paying for F some way or another, either it be through MY PMU's or my butt in Y).
My partner, a Gold, MUCH prefers DL/NW versus AA/UA because he GETS UPGRADED A LOT! I've taught him the good life and now he won't take Y!
My mom, as a DL silver, prefers the DL model as she can upgrade to F (though she would end up paying for F some way or another, either it be through MY PMU's or my butt in Y).
My partner, a Gold, MUCH prefers DL/NW versus AA/UA because he GETS UPGRADED A LOT! I've taught him the good life and now he won't take Y!
you're hosed 
Sep 2, 2009, 4:58 pm
#42
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: LRM
Programs: UA/DL plat to AA
Posts: 525
I don't see DL movinig to a "sticker" system for domestic upgrades. Aside from the upgrades, I'd live without the free club access and would not be too offended if i had to choose between roll over miles at the DM level and SWUs that I could use on any fare (I have a feeling I may be in the minority on that one).
Sep 2, 2009, 6:12 pm
#43
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,172
EXPs with at least 125,000 EQMs or EQPs can choose two of the Elite Rewards -- AA even allows doubling down on any of the choices besides the Admirals Club membership Elite Reward.
From www.aa.com/eliterewards :
www.aa.com/elite
AA's policy allows me to choose 4 SWUs on top of the 6 SWUs that all EXPs get.
From www.aa.com/eliterewards :
www.aa.com/elite
AA's policy allows me to choose 4 SWUs on top of the 6 SWUs that all EXPs get.
AA's policy allows me to choose 4 SWUs on top of the 8 SWUs that all EXPs get.
Sep 2, 2009, 6:19 pm
#44
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,172
One reason I havent switched to Delta is because of the constant dilution of miles with the various Delta programs. The primary reason, IMO, EXP trumps DM is the ease of use of SWUs. I do not need to buy a 3k or higher fare to user my SWUs. I have booked to DEL and GIG with the cheapest offered fare + less than $100 to find an upgradeable fare. I simply cannot do that with Delta. So, domestic upgrades aside, this beats DM.
Sep 2, 2009, 6:25 pm
#45
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nashville
Programs: DL DM 3 MM AA PLAT HH Lifetime Diamond Marriott Plat AMB lifetime titanium Hertz PC
Posts: 6,187
For spring training my wife decided to join me with are oldest daughter so I had to get 2 coach seats, since it was short notice. We split it the first leg my younger daughter and I sat in F, then we were on coach the second leg. My wife asked, how she liked the flight. Her answer was it was scary to have some one sit next to her.