DL Diamond still best in class??
Sep 4, 2009, 10:48 am
#136
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SAN
Programs: Nothing, nowhere!
Posts: 23,310
Mike...I definitely agree with you on that one. With the high quality of video conferencing, there is simply a reduced need to fly large groups of people around the country or the world. Additionally, there are savings from not having to rent hotel rooms, and I could also start another thread elsewhere about how the hotels don't seem to get it either.
agreed 100%
Much more cost effective if you just fly them in a day or two earlier and pay for a few hotel nights of recovery time. J fares TPAC were so high at the peak, that this math still worked even at the Peninsula, Park Hyatt, etc.
Long haul Y is miserable, but long haul J at the retail price is insane on some routes. For example, here in South Florida to PVG UA/AA regularly wanted $8k-$12k at the peak for RT in J, while Y was always $1000-$1400. There are very few people who are valuable enough to justify a fare like that vs the cost of an extra hotel night+meals.
Much more cost effective if you just fly them in a day or two earlier and pay for a few hotel nights of recovery time. J fares TPAC were so high at the peak, that this math still worked even at the Peninsula, Park Hyatt, etc.
Long haul Y is miserable, but long haul J at the retail price is insane on some routes. For example, here in South Florida to PVG UA/AA regularly wanted $8k-$12k at the peak for RT in J, while Y was always $1000-$1400. There are very few people who are valuable enough to justify a fare like that vs the cost of an extra hotel night+meals.
Sep 4, 2009, 10:57 am
#137
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Gone to Carolina in my mind
Programs: AA ExpMM, DL 2MM, IHG Spire/RA
Posts: 1,986
+1. I see no reason to travel if the work can be carried out via video conference.
You're not just justifying the cost of the hotel room or per diems you're also looking to justify the cost of the labour too. A lawyer/senior manager/high value engineer at $250hrx7.5 hours + $400 per day expenses will cost you $2275 a day in recovery time. I agree at the fares you mention it doesn't make sense to buy J but at under $5k they could well do and your cost effectiveness isn't.
You're not just justifying the cost of the hotel room or per diems you're also looking to justify the cost of the labour too. A lawyer/senior manager/high value engineer at $250hrx7.5 hours + $400 per day expenses will cost you $2275 a day in recovery time. I agree at the fares you mention it doesn't make sense to buy J but at under $5k they could well do and your cost effectiveness isn't.
I cannot abide with the physical pain of longhaul Y (multiple herniated discs), and there is no one else in the organization that can do what I do effectively, especially month in and month out.
Either I go, or no one does (but it is (largely) my money I'm spending anyway).
Sep 4, 2009, 11:10 am
#138
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CLT
Programs: AA EP, AA AC
Posts: 4,268
Well since we have gone a long way off topic that I thought this thread was to be about
, we might as well keep going.
With respect to all of this discussion about "Y" v. "J" long haul travel, it seems to me that it just increases the necessity of some day adding what many of the foreign carriers have and adding "premium economy." As the business class product becomes more and more enhanced and accordingly (it seems) more and more expensive with the gap between "J" and "Y" ever increasing, you need something intermediate which maybe provides a "nicer" free meal, a little wider seat, extra leg room and some leg rests (and no I don't mean E+ on UA for these purposes).
Yes, I know that it won't be in the near term with legacies bleeding cash and the like, but if you had a class like that, you could sell it above LUT prices but not at not the astronomic cost of "J". You could easily condition a PMU for this purpose on something less than "full fare coach" perhaps like at the fare classes for domestic PMU use. Just a thought and as always, YMMV. Hope everyone enjoys the holiday weekend "state side" and wherever you may be enjoys .......
Safe Travels!
, we might as well keep going. With respect to all of this discussion about "Y" v. "J" long haul travel, it seems to me that it just increases the necessity of some day adding what many of the foreign carriers have and adding "premium economy." As the business class product becomes more and more enhanced and accordingly (it seems) more and more expensive with the gap between "J" and "Y" ever increasing, you need something intermediate which maybe provides a "nicer" free meal, a little wider seat, extra leg room and some leg rests (and no I don't mean E+ on UA for these purposes). Yes, I know that it won't be in the near term with legacies bleeding cash and the like, but if you had a class like that, you could sell it above LUT prices but not at not the astronomic cost of "J". You could easily condition a PMU for this purpose on something less than "full fare coach" perhaps like at the fare classes for domestic PMU use. Just a thought and as always, YMMV. Hope everyone enjoys the holiday weekend "state side" and wherever you may be enjoys .......
Safe Travels!
Last edited by GTITAN; Sep 4, 2009 at 11:54 am
Sep 4, 2009, 11:46 am
#139
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,559
+1. I see no reason to travel if the work can be carried out via video conference.
You're not just justifying the cost of the hotel room or per diems you're also looking to justify the cost of the labour too. A lawyer/senior manager/high value engineer at $250hrx7.5 hours + $400 per day expenses will cost you $2275 a day in recovery time. I agree at the fares you mention it doesn't make sense to buy J but at under $5k they could well do and your cost effectiveness isn't.
You're not just justifying the cost of the hotel room or per diems you're also looking to justify the cost of the labour too. A lawyer/senior manager/high value engineer at $250hrx7.5 hours + $400 per day expenses will cost you $2275 a day in recovery time. I agree at the fares you mention it doesn't make sense to buy J but at under $5k they could well do and your cost effectiveness isn't.
)My point is that many/most of the pax are not so high value that their labor cost justifies J.
I fly to China and India quite often and usually the J cabins are packed with supply chain personnel, plant level engineers, senior buyers and the like. Most of whom them are making $50k - $100k depending on their specific position/function. Spending $5k+ on a J fare for these people vs the per diem cost of an extra day at the Leela Palace or JW Marriott rarely makes sense, especially in large organizations where premium costs add up quickly.
Sep 4, 2009, 6:17 pm
#140
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PIT/DFW/MEL; AA Exec. Platinum & 4MM, QF WP
Posts: 7,689
1. Qualification for Top Tier Status. AA permits qualification via "elite qualifiying points, (EQPs)" "elite qualifying miles (EQMs)" and "elite qualifying segments (EQS)". EQPs range anywhere from 1.5 to 0 points depending upon the fare type (higher fares give more points) and are multiplied by actual miles flown (subject to an applicable minimum). Generally speaking, folks buying the higher priced fares will find this useful. The targets for EXP are one or more of 100 EQS, 100,000 EQPs and/or 100,000 EQMs. DL is miles and/or segments. 140 segments or 125,000 MQMs qualify for Diamond. Both programs allow (generally speaking) for all non-opaque fares to accrue EQMs/MQMs. NW-DL has the 500 mile EQM minimum for everyone. AA has the minimum for elites only. Also note, EQMs on One World Alliance members may be next to nothing or nothing depending upon fare class and carrier route (i.e. BA for TATL with origin/destination domestic US as of today). Sky Team may be restricted as well in certain instances. Note, the DM tier will not come on line until sometime in the Spring of 2010.
2. SWUs. AA gives out 8 SWUs at 100K, and you need to find upgrade space, but with planning that is not too hard. As today (9-2-09) AA has come out with a promo where if one exceeds 125,000 EQMs or EQPs, one could choose 4 extra SWUs. Note this is being run in connection with a second DEQM promo by AA as well. All published paid fares, except the bottom two coach fares, and the deeply discounted business fare may be upgraded internationally. All but the bottom coach fare and discount business fares may be upgraded domestically (AA has 3 class domestic and internationally configured planes and fares depending on the route). DL will award SWUs to Diamonds up to 10 of them by choosing the "gift" at the PM/PE level (4) and again at the DM level (6). SWUs are useable on Y/B/M fares only internationally which are close to full fare. DL's SWUs may be used on all domestic fares but not on the lowest three (DL's LUT/NW's TKL). Consensus on FT seems to be that upgrade buckets on DL have been better this year than other years. AA keeps an electronic bank of these for you. DL's are rumored to be paper next year.
3. Elite Line. The EXP line is one of the top in the business. The new line for Diamonds has been published like it will be outstanding too.
4. International Lounge Access Based on Status. One World Emeralds (the equivalent to Sky Team Elite Plus (which an EXP qualifies as)), traveling on an international itinerary in coach on a One World airline, have access to the "F Class Lounges" of any One World airline (for the most part). Accordingly, if you fly AA to LHR, you can use Cathay Pacific's F Class Lounge. The Skyclubs are probably a spot nicer than the AA ACs, but IHMO, the international lounge access goes hands down to AA on this point. Note, this is just "Elite Plus" in ST speak benefits. ST plus get access to some nice partner lounges with KE, AF and the new lounge at LHR, but they're probably not in line with OW. Will deal with the domestic club situation in a moment.
5. Domestic Elite Upgrades. AA EXPs and DL DMs are both complimentary (i.e. no "stickers", E500s etc.) AA is 100 hours out. DL will be 5 days out. Both come at the top of the elite program (i.e. this does not factor in "Y-UP" fares). "Domestic elite upgrades" are available on all non-opaque mileage earning fares on both airlines. This includes AA's "O" and DL's "T". It should be noted that elite upgrades apply to Hawaii for AA but do not on NW-DL.
6. Award Availability at the Highest Tier. AA has extra availability for EXPs on its own metal. DM has stated there will be extra availability on its metal for "US domestic" travel.
7. Freedom From Fees. DMs will not have ticketing, waiver and/or redeposit fess. AA EXPs are charged a $150 redeposit fee, but there is no charge for changing of dates and times.
8. Domestic Non-Elite Companion Upgrades Based on Status. AA EXPs can have one companion upgraded with them at their 100 hour window (space available). However, the companions need "stickers" which are good for a 500 miles a piece purchasable at $30 per sticker. DMs will have companions upgrade with them if the companion flies on a "K" or above fare but not at the DM window.
9. Elite Bonuses. AA EXPs on AA metal or on AA Coded flights are entitled to a 100% RDM bonus, and it varies depending upon partner and class of fare if non-AA coded non-AA metal. DMs will get 125% on DL metal. We will need to see what happens for non-DL metal.
10. Domestic Club Membership. DMs get free membership which is a nice benefit. EXPs get reduced membership fee for program year 2009, if an EXP exceeds 125,000 EQMs or 125,000 EQPs this year, that EXP may choose a free AC membership.
11. Gifting Status: A DM may gift Gold Status and potentially Silver Status (depending on how one reads the rules) to other flyers. For program year 2009, an EXP with 125,000 EQMs or 125,000 EQPs may gift AA Gold status (equivalent of DL silver).
12. Bonus RDMs. For program year 2009, an EXP with 125,000 EQMs or 125,000 EQPS may choose 25,000 RDMs as a perk. A DM may also choose 25,000 RDMs
13. Roll-Over Status Miles. SM will feature ability for rollover of status miles in between tiers and after DM tier. AA does not feature.
14. Alliance Highest Tier: AA EXPs are One World Emerald. Emerald is the highest tier on One World. This entitles folks to check in at First Class lines, extra baggage (subject to restriction) and the like. DMs will be Sky Team Elite Plus (Sky Team's highest tier) with business class check in rights, priority to seats and the like.
If potential DMs, EXPs (or anyone else for that matter (smile)) believe I am factually inaccurate or have omitted something, please let me know, and I'll update the post. Hope others find this useful.
Safe Travels!
2. SWUs. AA gives out 8 SWUs at 100K, and you need to find upgrade space, but with planning that is not too hard. As today (9-2-09) AA has come out with a promo where if one exceeds 125,000 EQMs or EQPs, one could choose 4 extra SWUs. Note this is being run in connection with a second DEQM promo by AA as well. All published paid fares, except the bottom two coach fares, and the deeply discounted business fare may be upgraded internationally. All but the bottom coach fare and discount business fares may be upgraded domestically (AA has 3 class domestic and internationally configured planes and fares depending on the route). DL will award SWUs to Diamonds up to 10 of them by choosing the "gift" at the PM/PE level (4) and again at the DM level (6). SWUs are useable on Y/B/M fares only internationally which are close to full fare. DL's SWUs may be used on all domestic fares but not on the lowest three (DL's LUT/NW's TKL). Consensus on FT seems to be that upgrade buckets on DL have been better this year than other years. AA keeps an electronic bank of these for you. DL's are rumored to be paper next year.
3. Elite Line. The EXP line is one of the top in the business. The new line for Diamonds has been published like it will be outstanding too.
4. International Lounge Access Based on Status. One World Emeralds (the equivalent to Sky Team Elite Plus (which an EXP qualifies as)), traveling on an international itinerary in coach on a One World airline, have access to the "F Class Lounges" of any One World airline (for the most part). Accordingly, if you fly AA to LHR, you can use Cathay Pacific's F Class Lounge. The Skyclubs are probably a spot nicer than the AA ACs, but IHMO, the international lounge access goes hands down to AA on this point. Note, this is just "Elite Plus" in ST speak benefits. ST plus get access to some nice partner lounges with KE, AF and the new lounge at LHR, but they're probably not in line with OW. Will deal with the domestic club situation in a moment.
5. Domestic Elite Upgrades. AA EXPs and DL DMs are both complimentary (i.e. no "stickers", E500s etc.) AA is 100 hours out. DL will be 5 days out. Both come at the top of the elite program (i.e. this does not factor in "Y-UP" fares). "Domestic elite upgrades" are available on all non-opaque mileage earning fares on both airlines. This includes AA's "O" and DL's "T". It should be noted that elite upgrades apply to Hawaii for AA but do not on NW-DL.
6. Award Availability at the Highest Tier. AA has extra availability for EXPs on its own metal. DM has stated there will be extra availability on its metal for "US domestic" travel.
7. Freedom From Fees. DMs will not have ticketing, waiver and/or redeposit fess. AA EXPs are charged a $150 redeposit fee, but there is no charge for changing of dates and times.
8. Domestic Non-Elite Companion Upgrades Based on Status. AA EXPs can have one companion upgraded with them at their 100 hour window (space available). However, the companions need "stickers" which are good for a 500 miles a piece purchasable at $30 per sticker. DMs will have companions upgrade with them if the companion flies on a "K" or above fare but not at the DM window.
9. Elite Bonuses. AA EXPs on AA metal or on AA Coded flights are entitled to a 100% RDM bonus, and it varies depending upon partner and class of fare if non-AA coded non-AA metal. DMs will get 125% on DL metal. We will need to see what happens for non-DL metal.
10. Domestic Club Membership. DMs get free membership which is a nice benefit. EXPs get reduced membership fee for program year 2009, if an EXP exceeds 125,000 EQMs or 125,000 EQPs this year, that EXP may choose a free AC membership.
11. Gifting Status: A DM may gift Gold Status and potentially Silver Status (depending on how one reads the rules) to other flyers. For program year 2009, an EXP with 125,000 EQMs or 125,000 EQPs may gift AA Gold status (equivalent of DL silver).
12. Bonus RDMs. For program year 2009, an EXP with 125,000 EQMs or 125,000 EQPS may choose 25,000 RDMs as a perk. A DM may also choose 25,000 RDMs
13. Roll-Over Status Miles. SM will feature ability for rollover of status miles in between tiers and after DM tier. AA does not feature.
14. Alliance Highest Tier: AA EXPs are One World Emerald. Emerald is the highest tier on One World. This entitles folks to check in at First Class lines, extra baggage (subject to restriction) and the like. DMs will be Sky Team Elite Plus (Sky Team's highest tier) with business class check in rights, priority to seats and the like.
If potential DMs, EXPs (or anyone else for that matter (smile)) believe I am factually inaccurate or have omitted something, please let me know, and I'll update the post. Hope others find this useful.
Safe Travels!
1. EQP's would only be zero on non-mileage earning flights (e.g., priceline opaque, BA US-UK service). BA flights ex-YYZ or MEX or Caribbean are okay.
2. "discount" business fares can be upgraded to F (class D), but not "deep discount" business fares (class I). Class I can be upgraded with AA's businessExtra program points, or with Cathay Pacific AsiaMiles. Also, if you are on a Y or B fare, using a SWU makes little sense since the regular mileage upgrade is 15K transatlantic/transpacific/SAmerica, no co-pay.
4. Lounge access overseas is sometimes for departures only (BAA rules at LHR in particular are sticky on this point).
5. AA's "domestic" system applies essentially to the whole western hemisphere, except South America (bermuda, panama, aruba, all included).
7. Last-seat awards (AAnytime on AA, for 2x the lower tier price in miles) allow unlimited free changes to routing or cities.
10. Domestic lounge access also applies as part of the international-itinerary oneworld access if flying coach (including F lounges at ORD, MIA, LAX, JFK).
12. If this is based on picking two benefits, then one could get 50k miles.
plus:
15. EXP's traveling in Coach on American or American Eagle get one free alcoholic drink and one free pre-packaged snack item, on flights having buy on board catering.
Sep 5, 2009, 12:26 am
#141
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CLT
Programs: AA EP, AA AC
Posts: 4,268
good summary! some AA clarifications:
1. EQP's would only be zero on non-mileage earning flights (e.g., priceline opaque, BA US-UK service). BA flights ex-YYZ or MEX or Caribbean are okay.
2. "discount" business fares can be upgraded to F (class D), but not "deep discount" business fares (class I). Class I can be upgraded with AA's businessExtra program points, or with Cathay Pacific AsiaMiles. Also, if you are on a Y or B fare, using a SWU makes little sense since the regular mileage upgrade is 15K transatlantic/transpacific/SAmerica, no co-pay.
4. Lounge access overseas is sometimes for departures only (BAA rules at LHR in particular are sticky on this point).
5. AA's "domestic" system applies essentially to the whole western hemisphere, except South America (bermuda, panama, aruba, all included).
7. Last-seat awards (AAnytime on AA, for 2x the lower tier price in miles) allow unlimited free changes to routing or cities.
10. Domestic lounge access also applies as part of the international-itinerary oneworld access if flying coach (including F lounges at ORD, MIA, LAX, JFK).
12. If this is based on picking two benefits, then one could get 50k miles.
plus:
15. EXP's traveling in Coach on American or American Eagle get one free alcoholic drink and one free pre-packaged snack item, on flights having buy on board catering.
1. EQP's would only be zero on non-mileage earning flights (e.g., priceline opaque, BA US-UK service). BA flights ex-YYZ or MEX or Caribbean are okay.
2. "discount" business fares can be upgraded to F (class D), but not "deep discount" business fares (class I). Class I can be upgraded with AA's businessExtra program points, or with Cathay Pacific AsiaMiles. Also, if you are on a Y or B fare, using a SWU makes little sense since the regular mileage upgrade is 15K transatlantic/transpacific/SAmerica, no co-pay.
4. Lounge access overseas is sometimes for departures only (BAA rules at LHR in particular are sticky on this point).
5. AA's "domestic" system applies essentially to the whole western hemisphere, except South America (bermuda, panama, aruba, all included).
7. Last-seat awards (AAnytime on AA, for 2x the lower tier price in miles) allow unlimited free changes to routing or cities.
10. Domestic lounge access also applies as part of the international-itinerary oneworld access if flying coach (including F lounges at ORD, MIA, LAX, JFK).
12. If this is based on picking two benefits, then one could get 50k miles.
plus:
15. EXP's traveling in Coach on American or American Eagle get one free alcoholic drink and one free pre-packaged snack item, on flights having buy on board catering.
Appreciate it!
Sep 5, 2009, 12:42 am
#142
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Whether talking about Oneworld or SkyTeam or even Star Alliance, access to lounges on arrival is generally not part of the benefits of alliance-wide elite status. And arrivals lounge access is not part of the alliance-wide policy-defined benefits of any of the big 3 airline alliances.
Sep 5, 2009, 3:05 pm
#143
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PIT/DFW/MEL; AA Exec. Platinum & 4MM, QF WP
Posts: 7,689
Lounge access overseas on the basis of just alliance-level status is by policy a benefit of departures only at Oneworld, Star Alliance and SkyTeam.
Whether talking about Oneworld or SkyTeam or even Star Alliance, access to lounges on arrival is generally not part of the benefits of alliance-wide elite status. And arrivals lounge access is not part of the alliance-wide policy-defined benefits of any of the big 3 airline alliances.
Whether talking about Oneworld or SkyTeam or even Star Alliance, access to lounges on arrival is generally not part of the benefits of alliance-wide elite status. And arrivals lounge access is not part of the alliance-wide policy-defined benefits of any of the big 3 airline alliances.
individual carriers (and pairs of carriers) within alliances can have differing arrangements.