Air France (AF) ends upgradeable seats from Premium W
Sep 17, 2012, 3:41 pm
#106
Join Date: Sep 2012
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I would add a few thing about the FlyingBlue/SkyMiles cold war:
A/ There is no such thing as a complimentary upgrade on AF's metropolitan or european domestic flights. Therefore, there can be no reciprocity on DL US domestic flights.
B/ Sure, there might be less upgrade availability for FB customers on DL metal out/into CDG. That's unfair. But most frequencies are AF operated (5 out of 6 frequency on the JFK/CDG line; 2 out of 3 on the CDG/ATL line...). DL's customer flying to CDG therefore become AF's captive audience.
C/ AF representatives always make DL customer feel like second class citizens. Especially when you're French (which is my case). It's almost as though I was an anti-patriot by crediting my miles on my DL's account. (I can't even remember how often I was told "But why in the world would you want to credit those miles on a non-Flying Blue account?" or "There's something wrong in your reservation, some DL number's in there; would you like me to replace it with your Flying Blue account number?"
D/ O availability is EXCELLENT for Flying Blue customers in my experience (at least on the CDG/JFK line). It has been essentially non existent for SkyMiles customers. Not to mention those O seats are totally hidden from DL's representative or Expert Flyer.
E/ Part of the problem comes from DL's lack of Premium Voyageur offer. DL's W fare is the unique way to buy Premium Voyageur and is the equivalent of AF's A fare which stopped being upgradable a long time ago.
F/ Yes, this is retaliation from AF against DL. I spoke with many Flying Blue representatives about this and they complained about the lack of award seat availability for AF's FlyingBlue customers on DL domestic flights, making it harder and harder for them to build complex award tickets itinieraries to/from the US.
A/ There is no such thing as a complimentary upgrade on AF's metropolitan or european domestic flights. Therefore, there can be no reciprocity on DL US domestic flights.
B/ Sure, there might be less upgrade availability for FB customers on DL metal out/into CDG. That's unfair. But most frequencies are AF operated (5 out of 6 frequency on the JFK/CDG line; 2 out of 3 on the CDG/ATL line...). DL's customer flying to CDG therefore become AF's captive audience.
C/ AF representatives always make DL customer feel like second class citizens. Especially when you're French (which is my case). It's almost as though I was an anti-patriot by crediting my miles on my DL's account. (I can't even remember how often I was told "But why in the world would you want to credit those miles on a non-Flying Blue account?" or "There's something wrong in your reservation, some DL number's in there; would you like me to replace it with your Flying Blue account number?"
D/ O availability is EXCELLENT for Flying Blue customers in my experience (at least on the CDG/JFK line). It has been essentially non existent for SkyMiles customers. Not to mention those O seats are totally hidden from DL's representative or Expert Flyer.
E/ Part of the problem comes from DL's lack of Premium Voyageur offer. DL's W fare is the unique way to buy Premium Voyageur and is the equivalent of AF's A fare which stopped being upgradable a long time ago.
F/ Yes, this is retaliation from AF against DL. I spoke with many Flying Blue representatives about this and they complained about the lack of award seat availability for AF's FlyingBlue customers on DL domestic flights, making it harder and harder for them to build complex award tickets itinieraries to/from the US.
Sep 17, 2012, 4:32 pm
#107
Join Date: Mar 2010
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But it's my impression that was not the reason for your mentioning of A
Sep 17, 2012, 5:05 pm
#108
Join Date: Dec 2006
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BTW, I second your comment about French customers with SM accounts. Each time I call FB or AF I get comments too...
Sep 17, 2012, 5:25 pm
#109
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NW/KL seamless (and predating the AF acquisition of KL by several years); DL/AF, not so much.
Sep 17, 2012, 5:36 pm
#110
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for getting rid of SWUs on KLM metal too. was planning on using that to KUL later.Expect a complaint from me on my recent SWU selection DL...
Sep 17, 2012, 6:13 pm
#111
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LOL, read this:
Delta Mileage Upgrade Awards
You can use your miles for a one-class upgrade on most Delta operated flights. Mileage upgrade awards do not apply on all fares. To view the miles needed, see Delta Upgrade Awards.
SkyMiles members can also use miles to upgrade to Business class when flying on a full fare economy class (Y) ticket on many of our SkyTeam member airlines. In addition, as a result of our enhanced relationship with KLM and Air France, SkyTeam mileage upgrades can now be used on the following KLM and Air France booking classes. On KLM operated flights: Upgrade from economy Y, B, M, and U classes to Business class. On Air France operated flight: Economy Y, B, and M class to Premium Voyageur class only on Transatlantic flights. Premium Voyageur W and S class to Business class only on transatlantic flights, except for 747 aircraft equipped flights. Upgrade request has to be done 24 hours before the departure for Air France and KLM operated flights. You will need to contact a Delta reservations agent by phone for more details and to process this upgrade request.
I guess we've all been enhanced once again. Something about loyalty being a two way street.
Delta Mileage Upgrade Awards
You can use your miles for a one-class upgrade on most Delta operated flights. Mileage upgrade awards do not apply on all fares. To view the miles needed, see Delta Upgrade Awards.
SkyMiles members can also use miles to upgrade to Business class when flying on a full fare economy class (Y) ticket on many of our SkyTeam member airlines. In addition, as a result of our enhanced relationship with KLM and Air France, SkyTeam mileage upgrades can now be used on the following KLM and Air France booking classes. On KLM operated flights: Upgrade from economy Y, B, M, and U classes to Business class. On Air France operated flight: Economy Y, B, and M class to Premium Voyageur class only on Transatlantic flights. Premium Voyageur W and S class to Business class only on transatlantic flights, except for 747 aircraft equipped flights. Upgrade request has to be done 24 hours before the departure for Air France and KLM operated flights. You will need to contact a Delta reservations agent by phone for more details and to process this upgrade request.
I guess we've all been enhanced once again. Something about loyalty being a two way street.
Sep 17, 2012, 6:15 pm
#112
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DFW
Programs: Non-Affiliated
Posts: 7,431
NW/KL should have been the model for the joint venture. Heck, when I first started flying I thought they were the same company due to how well things were jointly branded on this side of the pond. Signage, announcements, some dual livery planes...
Sep 17, 2012, 6:18 pm
#113
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LOL, read this:
Delta Mileage Upgrade Awards
You can use your miles for a one-class upgrade on most Delta operated flights. Mileage upgrade awards do not apply on all fares. To view the miles needed, see Delta Upgrade Awards.
SkyMiles members can also use miles to upgrade to Business class when flying on a full fare economy class (Y) ticket on many of our SkyTeam member airlines. In addition, as a result of our enhanced relationship with KLM and Air France, SkyTeam mileage upgrades can now be used on the following KLM and Air France booking classes. On KLM operated flights: Upgrade from economy Y, B, M, and U classes to Business class. On Air France operated flight: Economy Y, B, and M class to Premium Voyageur class only on Transatlantic flights. Premium Voyageur W and S class to Business class only on transatlantic flights, except for 747 aircraft equipped flights. Upgrade request has to be done 24 hours before the departure for Air France and KLM operated flights. You will need to contact a Delta reservations agent by phone for more details and to process this upgrade request.
I guess we've all been enhanced once again. Something about loyalty being a two way street.
Delta Mileage Upgrade Awards
You can use your miles for a one-class upgrade on most Delta operated flights. Mileage upgrade awards do not apply on all fares. To view the miles needed, see Delta Upgrade Awards.
SkyMiles members can also use miles to upgrade to Business class when flying on a full fare economy class (Y) ticket on many of our SkyTeam member airlines. In addition, as a result of our enhanced relationship with KLM and Air France, SkyTeam mileage upgrades can now be used on the following KLM and Air France booking classes. On KLM operated flights: Upgrade from economy Y, B, M, and U classes to Business class. On Air France operated flight: Economy Y, B, and M class to Premium Voyageur class only on Transatlantic flights. Premium Voyageur W and S class to Business class only on transatlantic flights, except for 747 aircraft equipped flights. Upgrade request has to be done 24 hours before the departure for Air France and KLM operated flights. You will need to contact a Delta reservations agent by phone for more details and to process this upgrade request.
I guess we've all been enhanced once again. Something about loyalty being a two way street.
Sep 17, 2012, 6:19 pm
#114
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Sep 17, 2012, 6:23 pm
#116
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Sep 17, 2012, 11:49 pm
#117
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Actually, what is going on now is just normal: since when should a DL W fare be upgradable? From the website, only AF S and W flight can be upgraded using an SWU, and this will certainly remain for a while (after the "no upgrade period" that they need to analyse where AFKLDL screwed up).
What happened is that Delta considered a DL W flight operated by AF just like an AF W flight... which is incorrect. A DL W flight is actually equivalent to an AF A flight which is not upgradable.
Star Alliance also allows to upgrade flights with miles from other programs but they make it clear that code shares are excluded from the upgrade program to avoid such cases.
So, instead of complaining, all those that managed to upgrade a DL W fare operated by AF in the past should considered themselves lucky as you were not entitled to it by the rules.
What happened is that Delta considered a DL W flight operated by AF just like an AF W flight... which is incorrect. A DL W flight is actually equivalent to an AF A flight which is not upgradable.
Star Alliance also allows to upgrade flights with miles from other programs but they make it clear that code shares are excluded from the upgrade program to avoid such cases.
So, instead of complaining, all those that managed to upgrade a DL W fare operated by AF in the past should considered themselves lucky as you were not entitled to it by the rules.
Sep 18, 2012, 12:19 am
#118
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Actually, what is going on now is just normal: since when should a DL W fare be upgradable? From the website, only AF S and W flight can be upgraded using an SWU, and this will certainly remain for a while (after the "no upgrade period" that they need to analyse where AFKLDL screwed up).
What happened is that Delta considered a DL W flight operated by AF just like an AF W flight... which is incorrect. A DL W flight is actually equivalent to an AF A flight which is not upgradable.
Star Alliance also allows to upgrade flights with miles from other programs but they make it clear that code shares are excluded from the upgrade program to avoid such cases.
So, instead of complaining, all those that managed to upgrade a DL W fare operated by AF in the past should considered themselves lucky as you were not entitled to it by the rules.
What happened is that Delta considered a DL W flight operated by AF just like an AF W flight... which is incorrect. A DL W flight is actually equivalent to an AF A flight which is not upgradable.
Star Alliance also allows to upgrade flights with miles from other programs but they make it clear that code shares are excluded from the upgrade program to avoid such cases.
So, instead of complaining, all those that managed to upgrade a DL W fare operated by AF in the past should considered themselves lucky as you were not entitled to it by the rules.
Sep 18, 2012, 1:26 am
#119
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Actually, what is going on now is just normal: since when should a DL W fare be upgradable? From the website, only AF S and W flight can be upgraded using an SWU, and this will certainly remain for a while (after the "no upgrade period" that they need to analyse where AFKLDL screwed up).
What happened is that Delta considered a DL W flight operated by AF just like an AF W flight... which is incorrect. A DL W flight is actually equivalent to an AF A flight which is not upgradable.
Star Alliance also allows to upgrade flights with miles from other programs but they make it clear that code shares are excluded from the upgrade program to avoid such cases.
So, instead of complaining, all those that managed to upgrade a DL W fare operated by AF in the past should considered themselves lucky as you were not entitled to it by the rules.
What happened is that Delta considered a DL W flight operated by AF just like an AF W flight... which is incorrect. A DL W flight is actually equivalent to an AF A flight which is not upgradable.
Star Alliance also allows to upgrade flights with miles from other programs but they make it clear that code shares are excluded from the upgrade program to avoid such cases.
So, instead of complaining, all those that managed to upgrade a DL W fare operated by AF in the past should considered themselves lucky as you were not entitled to it by the rules.
As an AF elite, I doubt this ordered change with DL SWU application will result in a new customer-friendly order for customers in the main, whether AF-KL elites and/or DL elites or not. Any perceived gains by AF-KL FFP customers as a result of this change will be an illusory or quickly evasive flash in the pans.
DL and AF-KL created this situation, as carnal bed-buddies pursuing JV type interests.
Sep 18, 2012, 3:01 am
#120
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA and BKK
Posts: 24
i was looking to buy PV seats for LAX-CDG-LAX on the A380 and then use delta miles to upgrade to business. i figured the chances of upgrade before the flight date was zero but thought i might have some chance of upgrade at the gate. but what i'm reading here seems to imply i have no chance (assuming i have the correct fare class which seems to be S). is this true or are some people getting upgraded on an S class ticket at the gate ?
one thing that i'm confused on is the A, S, W fare classes. from the AF website, i see A as the cheap PV fare, S as the middle fare, and W as the most expensive (800 o/w for A, 1,000 o/w for S, and 5000 o/w for W). from what i've read in this thread it appears that W fares are no longer upgradeable but S fares are (but don't seem to stand a chance at clearing). and we know A fares are not per the delta website. any clarification on this from the long time FTers ?
one thing that i'm confused on is the A, S, W fare classes. from the AF website, i see A as the cheap PV fare, S as the middle fare, and W as the most expensive (800 o/w for A, 1,000 o/w for S, and 5000 o/w for W). from what i've read in this thread it appears that W fares are no longer upgradeable but S fares are (but don't seem to stand a chance at clearing). and we know A fares are not per the delta website. any clarification on this from the long time FTers ?