Air France (AF) ends upgradeable seats from Premium W
Sep 15, 2012, 1:51 pm
#61
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: MEM
Programs: DL DM, Marriott/Starwood Plat
Posts: 441
I doesn't seem to be impacting flying blue accounts. I can see classic business award availability for my flight on airfrance.us, but can't upgrade with delta.
Sep 15, 2012, 4:47 pm
#62
FlyerTalk Evangelist & Ambassador: China
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: DEN
Programs: DL DM/MM, UA 1K, AA Exp, HH Dia, WOH Glob, IHG Plat, Marriott Gold, NA EE, Hertz PC
Posts: 17,423
Anyone actually confirm this with another source? Effective date?
Sep 15, 2012, 9:08 pm
#64
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: N/A
Programs: UA 1K, BA Gold, LH/SN/LX Senator
Posts: 449
This is certainly disappointing. That said, I never once actually had an upgrade clear from Premium Economy to Business using either SWU or miles on AF. I did receive a few op ups from West Africa to CDG from Premium Economy to Business (SWU could only be used on AF for trans Atlantic).
When I wanted a higher chance of the upgrade I always booked on DL or KL in M since I had a higher chance of upgrade. When I didn't want to spend that sort of money I would buy AF Premium Economy since it was certainly one of the best value for money products across the Atlantic and to West Africa.
When I wanted a higher chance of the upgrade I always booked on DL or KL in M since I had a higher chance of upgrade. When I didn't want to spend that sort of money I would buy AF Premium Economy since it was certainly one of the best value for money products across the Atlantic and to West Africa.
Sep 16, 2012, 12:11 am
#65
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: BER, SAT, AUS
Programs: Feels like FO (AA EXP)
Posts: 1,611
This is certainly disappointing. That said, I never once actually had an upgrade clear from Premium Economy to Business using either SWU or miles on AF. I did receive a few op ups from West Africa to CDG from Premium Economy to Business (SWU could only be used on AF for trans Atlantic).
When I wanted a higher chance of the upgrade I always booked on DL or KL in M since I had a higher chance of upgrade. When I didn't want to spend that sort of money I would buy AF Premium Economy since it was certainly one of the best value for money products across the Atlantic and to West Africa.
When I wanted a higher chance of the upgrade I always booked on DL or KL in M since I had a higher chance of upgrade. When I didn't want to spend that sort of money I would buy AF Premium Economy since it was certainly one of the best value for money products across the Atlantic and to West Africa.
In summary, the quality is fading but the price stayed. We can easily fit two r/t into one PV, if not three. It's not that much of a steal anymore ...
Sep 16, 2012, 3:54 am
#66
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CMH
Programs: DL SM
Posts: 152
Ok maybe this is just me and not really that important. Once I read this thread it really bugged me that they did this. So I went on a rant on multiple social media Air France and Delta sites and complained. Shockingly (sarcasm) Delta has no response but I did get one from Air France. The first response being that my concern has been forwarded to all apporiate people "Dear xxx, we appreciate your feedback. Your comments have been forwarded to all the relevant departments. Thanks. Kind regards." To which I replied "Is this a joke??? I know nothing will be done. Air France is willing to sell to its members a classic business award but not allow upgrade to their "Partner" airline in this joint venture. Makes me think something else is going on between Delta and Air France / KLM." Much to my surprise less than 10 minutes later they responded that based on others as well as my concern their will be a public statement soon.
I know its nothing but hot air but I guess for me gives a little hope.
I know its nothing but hot air but I guess for me gives a little hope.
Sep 16, 2012, 6:15 am
#67
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Berlin, Germany
Programs: DL DM/2MM, UA PE, HH Gold
Posts: 1,080
"Careing more about you"?
Some old-timer's here might remember that it was once possible to use DL SWU's for C>F and Y>C upgrades on every AF operated flight from the US ( i upgraded several of of the LAX/SFO>CDG non stops 10 years ago with DL SWU's. And i cleary remember their marketing language when they introduced the TATL Joint venture "more and better choices for our customers" and "it won't matter which airline operates the JV Flight".....
One would think that an alliance is getter better over the years but this one here smells like a divorce coming around the corner. Next step would be eliminating all Skymiles award tickets on AF/KL completely.
Some old-timer's here might remember that it was once possible to use DL SWU's for C>F and Y>C upgrades on every AF operated flight from the US ( i upgraded several of of the LAX/SFO>CDG non stops 10 years ago with DL SWU's. And i cleary remember their marketing language when they introduced the TATL Joint venture "more and better choices for our customers" and "it won't matter which airline operates the JV Flight".....
One would think that an alliance is getter better over the years but this one here smells like a divorce coming around the corner. Next step would be eliminating all Skymiles award tickets on AF/KL completely.
Sep 16, 2012, 7:17 am
#68
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BOS/EAP
Programs: UA 1K, MR LTT, HH Dia, Amex Plat
Posts: 32,048
Since Delta started the PU503s with the ability to upgrade W to O the situation has become worse for both airlines; AF is seeing a huge amount of upgrades for which they get almost nothing from Delta and Delta in turn is not getting their revenue from selling crazy M fares.
The only real solution to this problem is a change to DL's revenue management with more O inventory TATL or by finally giving PM/DM an enhanced inventory access.
Sep 16, 2012, 8:20 am
#69
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
No way. The JV is way too important for both airlines to make any changes. AF is doing the math and sees how much O space is being taken by Skymiles members (since DL's inventory is a joke). This leaves less space for FB members who have been complaining for years about this situation. FB has no SWUs either which allow you to upgrade from PV to Affaires.
Since Delta started the PU503s with the ability to upgrade W to O the situation has become worse for both airlines; AF is seeing a huge amount of upgrades for which they get almost nothing from Delta and Delta in turn is not getting their revenue from selling crazy M fares.
The only real solution to this problem is a change to DL's revenue management with more O inventory TATL or by finally giving PM/DM an enhanced inventory access.
Since Delta started the PU503s with the ability to upgrade W to O the situation has become worse for both airlines; AF is seeing a huge amount of upgrades for which they get almost nothing from Delta and Delta in turn is not getting their revenue from selling crazy M fares.
The only real solution to this problem is a change to DL's revenue management with more O inventory TATL or by finally giving PM/DM an enhanced inventory access.
Also, let's try to keep in mind that DL and AF are both benefiting when customers with SWUs are/were using SWUs on DL/AF TATL flights -- it meant a premium fare ticket was likely being purchased for those DL/AF flights using money that otherwise may have gone a different direction.
Sep 16, 2012, 8:49 am
#70
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: LAS
Programs: PA FT, TW Gold, NW/CO PE, VK Eagleflyer
Posts: 7,173
Rev Mgt is the enemy of the frequent flyer for they know what them Pesos are worth - which is not a whole lot.
Sep 16, 2012, 9:33 am
#71
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ORD/MDW
Programs: DL DM; SPG Gold
Posts: 1,733
DL revenue management improve things for customers wanting to upgrade TATL? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen on this matter. You would probably be better off holding your breath waiting for DL to scale back on SWUs even more than DL already has.
Also, let's try to keep in mind that DL and AF are both benefiting when customers with SWUs are/were using SWUs on DL/AF TATL flights -- it meant a premium fare ticket was likely being purchased for those DL/AF flights using money that otherwise may have gone a different direction.
Also, let's try to keep in mind that DL and AF are both benefiting when customers with SWUs are/were using SWUs on DL/AF TATL flights -- it meant a premium fare ticket was likely being purchased for those DL/AF flights using money that otherwise may have gone a different direction.
Without flyertalk I would have never found out that it was even possible to start with, and without all I have learned from flyertalk I would have never been able to make it work afterwards. So it can't be that many people....
Sep 16, 2012, 10:35 am
#72
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: SBN
Programs: DL Diamond, HHonors Diamond, Hyatt a lowly Platinum now
Posts: 187
No O class anyway
I just tried to do it on a new ticket, they will let you use for the PU certs for S class, just not W. S class was only a couple hundred $ more in each direction, so the S ticket was still way cheaper than DL M class. The bigger problem is that there's simply no O class availability. I tried every AF-metal USA gateway for some dates in November, it was zeros all the way through.
So yeah, one of the last uses for the SWUs is now basically worthless.
I have used it before, AF's BC isn't that bad if you can get it for miles or certs.
So yeah, one of the last uses for the SWUs is now basically worthless.
I have used it before, AF's BC isn't that bad if you can get it for miles or certs.
Sep 16, 2012, 11:05 am
#73
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: JFK,ATL,LGA (the rest of the world follows)
Programs: DL KM/DM/2MM (NH Plat emeritus, CO Plat emeritus, and no place like home)
Posts: 3,190
I just got off the phone with the Plat phone line. My AF flight had been booked awhile ago (Premium Class W) and I was just checking back with Delta for upgradeable seats and have had no luck.
The rep told me that she just saw an e-mail yesterday saying that Air France (AF) is no longer offering O class or upgradeable seats for SWU nor for miles for Delta with W class fares.
As a courtesy they (a Supervisor) provided me an upgrade on Delta metal but couldn't offer it on my return flight since there were none available. It's cost me 25,000 for Business Class for the first leg of the journey. She said that all the Business Class seats were full on the return for the dates I was traveling.
My guess is that because AF Premium class W tickets are cheaper (she priced out a M class and it was 2x as much as I had paid) AF doesn't want to honor it anymore.
I'd be interested if others can confirm this.
End of an "error."
FYI: I've posted this same message in the Air France upgrades thread but thought it warranted it's own thread. Moderator close if you think unnecessary.
The rep told me that she just saw an e-mail yesterday saying that Air France (AF) is no longer offering O class or upgradeable seats for SWU nor for miles for Delta with W class fares.
As a courtesy they (a Supervisor) provided me an upgrade on Delta metal but couldn't offer it on my return flight since there were none available. It's cost me 25,000 for Business Class for the first leg of the journey. She said that all the Business Class seats were full on the return for the dates I was traveling.
My guess is that because AF Premium class W tickets are cheaper (she priced out a M class and it was 2x as much as I had paid) AF doesn't want to honor it anymore.
I'd be interested if others can confirm this.
End of an "error."
FYI: I've posted this same message in the Air France upgrades thread but thought it warranted it's own thread. Moderator close if you think unnecessary.
On September 13, 2012, a memo was sent to all front line (res) informing that
(a) AF will no longer offer SWU upgrades to J. Same memo informs that
(b) AF vastly reduced the inventory of "O" for miles, and that
(c) KL upgrades will not be offered on "M" fare anymore, but only on fully upgradable fares.
That makes the publication on delta.com
http://www.delta.com/skymiles/about_...erts/index.jsp
plain incorrect. I would even go as far as blaming delta in direct misleading. I believe that a delta representative should step into the discussion now and provide some explanations.
Last edited by DLroads; Sep 16, 2012 at 11:26 am
Sep 16, 2012, 11:55 am
#74
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Well, I got the close to full picture now:
On September 13, 2012, a memo was sent to all front line (res) informing that
(a) AF will no longer offer SWU upgrades to J. Same memo informs that
(b) AF vastly reduced the inventory of "O" for miles, and that
(c) KL upgrades will not be offered on "M" fare anymore, but only on fully upgradable fares.
That makes the publication on delta.com
http://www.delta.com/skymiles/about_...erts/index.jsp
plain incorrect. I would even go as far as blaming delta in direct misleading. I believe that a delta representative should step into the discussion now and provide some explanations.
On September 13, 2012, a memo was sent to all front line (res) informing that
(a) AF will no longer offer SWU upgrades to J. Same memo informs that
(b) AF vastly reduced the inventory of "O" for miles, and that
(c) KL upgrades will not be offered on "M" fare anymore, but only on fully upgradable fares.
That makes the publication on delta.com
http://www.delta.com/skymiles/about_...erts/index.jsp
plain incorrect. I would even go as far as blaming delta in direct misleading. I believe that a delta representative should step into the discussion now and provide some explanations.
Rather pitiful that those customers who choose to deal with DL so as to get SWUs are going to see a further reduction in benefits in relation to a partner company that is deeply in bed with DL. It is not like DL is powerless to keep AF-KL in line.
It is no less pitiful when some try to hide behind the following language in the same link:
Rule Changes: Delta reserves the right to change its contract of carriage, fare rules, rules and regulations and the SkyMiles Membership Guide and Program Rules at any time and without notice. Without limitation, Delta reserves the right to modify or eliminate the Systemwide Upgrade Certificate program or change the rules for certificate usage. This certificate is the property of Delta Air Lines and must be surrendered or returned upon request.
Last edited by GUWonder; Sep 16, 2012 at 12:06 pm