Online no longer does award stopovers properly
Dec 29, 2011, 10:32 am
#181
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,205
I've checked and it is now pricing things properly indeed.
Best case scenario: it really was just a "bug." However, if so, then why the total lack of communication on it?
More likely scenario: DL wanted to change policy so, but first implemented the pricing change before announcing the policy change, and they likely got more than expected pushback from customers ("for every action there's a reaction" - don't they learn from their own ads?). If so, then this may resurface again, next time to stay, in the form how it was seen, or perhaps in a slighty worse form.. so, stay vigiliant, everyone!
The above is almost surely what it was, as even http://thepointsguy.com/2011/12/delt...ooking-engine/ states that it was due to "fare rules changing that impact the legal routings," which is obviously intentional then and that it was not a bug but based on actual premeditated attempted changes to the fare rules (in the pricing system, without announcing it or updating the published fare rules that the customers can see - anyone else find it odd that during that time there were no fare rules available online for any routing, while the fare rules that the agents could see had drastically changed stopover rules (basicaly, not allowed)?). Obviously now the fare rule changes have been reverted back. But, the million dollar question is, for how long? The cat was let out of the bag... and it's only a matter of time before so happens again, next time for good, I fear.
Best case scenario: it really was just a "bug." However, if so, then why the total lack of communication on it?
More likely scenario: DL wanted to change policy so, but first implemented the pricing change before announcing the policy change, and they likely got more than expected pushback from customers ("for every action there's a reaction" - don't they learn from their own ads?). If so, then this may resurface again, next time to stay, in the form how it was seen, or perhaps in a slighty worse form.. so, stay vigiliant, everyone!
The above is almost surely what it was, as even http://thepointsguy.com/2011/12/delt...ooking-engine/ states that it was due to "fare rules changing that impact the legal routings," which is obviously intentional then and that it was not a bug but based on actual premeditated attempted changes to the fare rules (in the pricing system, without announcing it or updating the published fare rules that the customers can see - anyone else find it odd that during that time there were no fare rules available online for any routing, while the fare rules that the agents could see had drastically changed stopover rules (basicaly, not allowed)?). Obviously now the fare rule changes have been reverted back. But, the million dollar question is, for how long? The cat was let out of the bag... and it's only a matter of time before so happens again, next time for good, I fear.
Dec 29, 2011, 12:24 pm
#182
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bye Delta
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Posts: 16,278
This isn't really a departure from the norm. DL.com issues, such as pricing (especially on award tickets), "this fare just sold out", etc., aren't often addressed. That's why personally I leaned towards IT glitch throughout all of this, especially given the published fare rules. As many changes as DL has made to the program this year, IT problems are far more common.
Dec 29, 2011, 2:03 pm
#183
Join Date: Jun 2010
Programs: Whatever's Cheapest, Accruing Miles, Redeeming for Premium Cabins, Not Chasing Status Unnecessarily
Posts: 2,264
it seems to have come when the new "pick your cabin" for each segment came out so maybe IT problem?
I think fare rules always showed stopover allowed
I think fare rules always showed stopover allowed
Dec 29, 2011, 3:06 pm
#184
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,205
This isn't really a departure from the norm. DL.com issues, such as pricing (especially on award tickets), "this fare just sold out", etc., aren't often addressed. That's why personally I leaned towards IT glitch throughout all of this, especially given the published fare rules. As many changes as DL has made to the program this year, IT problems are far more common.
That would make it more likely to be a quiet test (prior to [possibly] rolling out) of such massive fare rule changes.
Online static award fare rules doc (that has no realworld relevance), yes. BUT, the actual fare rules on the specific award itinearies then DID CHANGE and specifically stated NO STOPOVERS ALLOWED (that DL agents could only see internally, online it would always show no fare rules). That is what was triggering it to price accordingly.
Dec 29, 2011, 3:25 pm
#185
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bye Delta
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Online static award fare rules doc (that has no realworld relevance), yes. BUT, the actual fare rules on the specific award itinearies then DID CHANGE and specifically stated NO STOPOVERS ALLOWED (that DL agents could only see internally, online it would always show no fare rules). That is what was triggering it to price accordingly.
Dec 29, 2011, 3:35 pm
#187
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,205
The ones on the site during this fiasco always were showing NOT AVAILABLE, and there were none there. Now they are back. But, a week ago, for example, they were NOT there (at least not for any routing I tried).
Dec 30, 2011, 4:07 am
#188
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MEL
Programs: DL, QF, QR Gold, MR Lifetime Gold
Posts: 7,004
What I don't understand is, what do you think would motivate DL to eliminate stopovers on awards? If award availability is there, it doesn't cost them any more if you fly AAA-BBB-CCC all in one day or if you fly AAA-BBB and BBB-CCC on different days. What you get from them is the same: a seat on a plane that would have otherwise likely gone unsold.
Dec 30, 2011, 4:32 am
#189
Join Date: Jun 2010
Programs: Whatever's Cheapest, Accruing Miles, Redeeming for Premium Cabins, Not Chasing Status Unnecessarily
Posts: 2,264
Dec 30, 2011, 10:27 am
#190
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,205
What I don't understand is, what do you think would motivate DL to eliminate stopovers on awards? If award availability is there, it doesn't cost them any more if you fly AAA-BBB-CCC all in one day or if you fly AAA-BBB and BBB-CCC on different days. What you get from them is the same: a seat on a plane that would have otherwise likely gone unsold.
Dec 30, 2011, 10:40 am
#191
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SFO / JFK
Programs: Variety of rectangular cards with my name on it
Posts: 665
is this right???
Booking Biz Award Travel via Delta's Amazing Award System:
JFK - AMS | AMS - BRE | FRA - JFK
First leg and Last leg are both on DL. Middle is on KL.
I get priced out to 150K instead of 100K (it should be 100 as the middle is regarded as a stopover). According to the rules, I'm allowed one. I call up Plat Res desk. She confirms that it is allowed and she rechecks the mileage. She believes it should be 100K and the system is wrong, confirms with her help desk. After a few minutes hold, she then corrects herself saying the system is correct and that it is split into 75k and 75k because I am doing a DL - KL - DL itinerary. If I do a KL - KL - DL itinerary, it would go down to 100k. She confirmed that if the first leg left 2 days earlier, there was availability for a KL flight, bringing the mileage needed to 100k. She was bewildered that there would be such a "rule" existing pertaining to award travel stopovers.
So I'm not sure. I couldn't find anything in the Delta FAQ stating such.
JFK - AMS | AMS - BRE | FRA - JFK
First leg and Last leg are both on DL. Middle is on KL.
I get priced out to 150K instead of 100K (it should be 100 as the middle is regarded as a stopover). According to the rules, I'm allowed one. I call up Plat Res desk. She confirms that it is allowed and she rechecks the mileage. She believes it should be 100K and the system is wrong, confirms with her help desk. After a few minutes hold, she then corrects herself saying the system is correct and that it is split into 75k and 75k because I am doing a DL - KL - DL itinerary. If I do a KL - KL - DL itinerary, it would go down to 100k. She confirmed that if the first leg left 2 days earlier, there was availability for a KL flight, bringing the mileage needed to 100k. She was bewildered that there would be such a "rule" existing pertaining to award travel stopovers.
So I'm not sure. I couldn't find anything in the Delta FAQ stating such.
Dec 30, 2011, 10:52 am
#192
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bye Delta
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, IHG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Marriott Plat, Nat'l Exec Elite, Avis Presidents Club
Posts: 16,278
Booking Biz Award Travel via Delta's Amazing Award System:
JFK - AMS | AMS - BRE | FRA - JFK
First leg and Last leg are both on DL. Middle is on KL.
I get priced out to 150K instead of 100K (it should be 100 as the middle is regarded as a stopover). According to the rules, I'm allowed one. I call up Plat Res desk. She confirms that it is allowed and she rechecks the mileage. She believes it should be 100K and the system is wrong, confirms with her help desk. After a few minutes hold, she then corrects herself saying the system is correct and that it is split into 75k and 75k because I am doing a DL - KL - DL itinerary. If I do a KL - KL - DL itinerary, it would go down to 100k. She confirmed that if the first leg left 2 days earlier, there was availability for a KL flight, bringing the mileage needed to 100k. She was bewildered that there would be such a "rule" existing pertaining to award travel stopovers.
So I'm not sure. I couldn't find anything in the Delta FAQ stating such.
JFK - AMS | AMS - BRE | FRA - JFK
First leg and Last leg are both on DL. Middle is on KL.
I get priced out to 150K instead of 100K (it should be 100 as the middle is regarded as a stopover). According to the rules, I'm allowed one. I call up Plat Res desk. She confirms that it is allowed and she rechecks the mileage. She believes it should be 100K and the system is wrong, confirms with her help desk. After a few minutes hold, she then corrects herself saying the system is correct and that it is split into 75k and 75k because I am doing a DL - KL - DL itinerary. If I do a KL - KL - DL itinerary, it would go down to 100k. She confirmed that if the first leg left 2 days earlier, there was availability for a KL flight, bringing the mileage needed to 100k. She was bewildered that there would be such a "rule" existing pertaining to award travel stopovers.
So I'm not sure. I couldn't find anything in the Delta FAQ stating such.
Dec 30, 2011, 11:02 am
#193
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SFO / JFK
Programs: Variety of rectangular cards with my name on it
Posts: 665
Im staying more than 24 hours in AMS. I also asked if it was because of me traveling from AMS to BRE. I had an itinerary for AMS to FRA | FRA - JFK (stay in FRA was for more than 24 hours). Agent said it didn't matter...?
EDIT: The fare rules online I believe say that OJ already count as a stopover. The two agents I talked to when I originally had JFK -AMS | FRA - JFK said that I was allowed one stop over. I added AMS - BRE.
EDIT: The fare rules online I believe say that OJ already count as a stopover. The two agents I talked to when I originally had JFK -AMS | FRA - JFK said that I was allowed one stop over. I added AMS - BRE.
Last edited by KissFlyGoodbye; Dec 30, 2011 at 11:06 am Reason: addition
Dec 30, 2011, 11:36 am
#194
Join Date: Sep 2011
Programs: DL GM; AA; UA; BA
Posts: 82
Im staying more than 24 hours in AMS. I also asked if it was because of me traveling from AMS to BRE. I had an itinerary for AMS to FRA | FRA - JFK (stay in FRA was for more than 24 hours). Agent said it didn't matter...?
EDIT: The fare rules online I believe say that OJ already count as a stopover. The two agents I talked to when I originally had JFK -AMS | FRA - JFK said that I was allowed one stop over. I added AMS - BRE.
EDIT: The fare rules online I believe say that OJ already count as a stopover. The two agents I talked to when I originally had JFK -AMS | FRA - JFK said that I was allowed one stop over. I added AMS - BRE.
I was just able to do this which is DL-KL-DL and is a stopover and an open jaw pricing out at the low level of 60,000 miles.
You selected these flights:
This flight arrives the next day
Wed,29 Feb 2012
Departs: 6:25pm from Boston, MA (BOS)
Arrives: 7:40am in Amsterdam, Netherlands (AMS)
Airbus A330-300 | View Seats
Economy | Meal Services
Delta 230
7 h 15 m
Tue,13 Mar 2012
Departs: 8:35pm from Amsterdam, Netherlands (AMS)
Arrives: 10:15pm in Milan-Malpensa, Italy (MXP)
Boeing 737 | View Seats
Economy | Meal Services
KLM 1635
1 h 40 m
Tue,20 Mar 2012
Departs: 10:30am from Paris-De Gaulle, France (CDG)
Arrives: 3:00pm in Cincinnati, OH (CVG)
Boeing 767-300ER | View Seats
Economy | Meal Services
Delta 45
16 h 31 m
Layover in Cincinnati, OH (CVG)
Tue,20 Mar 2012
Departs: 7:55pm from Cincinnati, OH (CVG)
Arrives: 10:01pm in Boston, MA (BOS)
CRJ 900 | View Seats
Economy | Meal Services
Delta 3224 1
16 h 31 m
Award Tickets cannot be redeposited or changed within 72 hours of scheduled flight departure time.
Total Miles required: 60,000
Total purchase price including Taxes/Fees (USD) : $ 127.00
Last edited by TMitch6542; Dec 30, 2011 at 11:51 am Reason: additional info
Dec 30, 2011, 12:26 pm
#195
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MHT/BOS
Programs: Many
Posts: 429
Documenting some of the issues:
1) Delta.com will often not show the low level available partner award, even when it is more direct than more expensive Delta flights:
Exhibit a: http://ScrnSht.com/couxvk
Even when I sort by number of connections; the single NSI-CDG-MEX option is not displayed. CDG-MEX nonstop (both AF and AM) have miles availability but only NSI-CDG-JFK/ATL-MEX is displayed (medium and high level DL metal):
http://ScrnSht.com/fawwsl
If I force it (specify connecting point), I can make it give me the more direct low level AF routing:
http://ScrnSht.com/egyiqm
Magically, Delts.com now realizes there are available award flights CDG-MEX that don’t connect in ATL or JFK!
http://ScrnSht.com/ncebox
Exhibit b: Say I need to go between Vancouver (YVR) and Chicago (ORD) as part of a premium cabin itinerary.
If I plug in YVR-ORD, I get to pay 80,000 miles:
http://ScrnSht.com/uhilgo
If I force a SEA connection (knowing AS is MUCH better than DL at making some seats avaialble for low level miles) THEN DL will show me multiple AS options for 45,000 miles:
http://ScrnSht.com/rfuuzn
2) Open jaws refuse to price using open jaw award pricing in select markets.
Exhibit a)
Tue 07 Feb 2012 MEX-JFK-CDG-NSI all low level inventory
Thu 25 Apr 2012 NSI-CDG-MEX all low level inventory
Price in miles: 80,000
Proof: http://ScrnSht.com/onjcag
Exhibit b)
Tue 07 Feb 2012 MEX-JFK-CDG-NSI all low level inventory
Thu 25 Apr 2012 NSI-CDG-IAH all low level inventory
Price in miles: 115,000
Proof: http://ScrnSht.com/jvtmrw
Exhibit c)
Tue 07 Feb 2012 IAH-CDG-NSI all low level inventory
Thu 25 Apr 2012 NSI-CDG-IAH all low level inventory
Price in miles: 80,000 miles
Proof: http://ScrnSht.com/dzgovk
So MEX cannot be open jawed with IAH. SJO also will not price open jaw.
Replace MEX or SJO with YVR or SJU open jaw with IAH, and the open jaw prices correctly at 80,000 roundtrip.
WHY!!!
3) Adding connections on partners makes ticket price as multiple awards:
Example Itinerary:
Yaoundé (NSI) to San Jose (SJO) - Wed, Apr 25
Yaoundé (NSI) to Paris (CDG) Air France 901 Dep: 10:35PM Arr: 6:05AM
Paris (CDG) to Mexico City (MEX) AeroMexico 6 Dep: 10:30AM Arr: 4:10PM
Mexico City (MEX) to San Jose (SJO) AeroMexico 656 Dep: 9:20PM Arr: 11:20PM
San Jose (SJO) to Yaoundé (NSI) - Sun, May 6
San Jose (SJO) to Mexico City (MEX) AeroMexico 657 Dep: 7:00AM Arr: 11:05AM
Mexico City (MEX) to Paris (CDG) AeroMexico 5 Dep: 2:10PM Arr: 8:30AM
Paris (CDG) to Yaoundé (NSI) Air France 900 Dep: 1:50PM Arr: 7:15PM
All low partner economy availability on one of the most direct Skyteam routings but prices at 140,000 miles.
Remove the MEX-SJO-MEX and it is 80,000 miles.
But I need to go to SJO, not MEX.
Delta metal via ATL is not available anywhere around my dates (at low level).
And the MEX routing is as direct and logical of a Skyteam routing as ATL is.
DL doesn't want me to be able to make good use of partner availabability so that I will spend more miles for medium/high redemptions flown on DL metal?
Or is their IT unable to make pricing work like UA, CO, AA, US, and AS successfully do?
Grrrrr
1) Delta.com will often not show the low level available partner award, even when it is more direct than more expensive Delta flights:
Exhibit a: http://ScrnSht.com/couxvk
Even when I sort by number of connections; the single NSI-CDG-MEX option is not displayed. CDG-MEX nonstop (both AF and AM) have miles availability but only NSI-CDG-JFK/ATL-MEX is displayed (medium and high level DL metal):
http://ScrnSht.com/fawwsl
If I force it (specify connecting point), I can make it give me the more direct low level AF routing:
http://ScrnSht.com/egyiqm
Magically, Delts.com now realizes there are available award flights CDG-MEX that don’t connect in ATL or JFK!
http://ScrnSht.com/ncebox
Exhibit b: Say I need to go between Vancouver (YVR) and Chicago (ORD) as part of a premium cabin itinerary.
If I plug in YVR-ORD, I get to pay 80,000 miles:
http://ScrnSht.com/uhilgo
If I force a SEA connection (knowing AS is MUCH better than DL at making some seats avaialble for low level miles) THEN DL will show me multiple AS options for 45,000 miles:
http://ScrnSht.com/rfuuzn
2) Open jaws refuse to price using open jaw award pricing in select markets.
Exhibit a)
Tue 07 Feb 2012 MEX-JFK-CDG-NSI all low level inventory
Thu 25 Apr 2012 NSI-CDG-MEX all low level inventory
Price in miles: 80,000
Proof: http://ScrnSht.com/onjcag
Exhibit b)
Tue 07 Feb 2012 MEX-JFK-CDG-NSI all low level inventory
Thu 25 Apr 2012 NSI-CDG-IAH all low level inventory
Price in miles: 115,000
Proof: http://ScrnSht.com/jvtmrw
Exhibit c)
Tue 07 Feb 2012 IAH-CDG-NSI all low level inventory
Thu 25 Apr 2012 NSI-CDG-IAH all low level inventory
Price in miles: 80,000 miles
Proof: http://ScrnSht.com/dzgovk
So MEX cannot be open jawed with IAH. SJO also will not price open jaw.
Replace MEX or SJO with YVR or SJU open jaw with IAH, and the open jaw prices correctly at 80,000 roundtrip.
WHY!!!
3) Adding connections on partners makes ticket price as multiple awards:
Example Itinerary:
Yaoundé (NSI) to San Jose (SJO) - Wed, Apr 25
Yaoundé (NSI) to Paris (CDG) Air France 901 Dep: 10:35PM Arr: 6:05AM
Paris (CDG) to Mexico City (MEX) AeroMexico 6 Dep: 10:30AM Arr: 4:10PM
Mexico City (MEX) to San Jose (SJO) AeroMexico 656 Dep: 9:20PM Arr: 11:20PM
San Jose (SJO) to Yaoundé (NSI) - Sun, May 6
San Jose (SJO) to Mexico City (MEX) AeroMexico 657 Dep: 7:00AM Arr: 11:05AM
Mexico City (MEX) to Paris (CDG) AeroMexico 5 Dep: 2:10PM Arr: 8:30AM
Paris (CDG) to Yaoundé (NSI) Air France 900 Dep: 1:50PM Arr: 7:15PM
All low partner economy availability on one of the most direct Skyteam routings but prices at 140,000 miles.
Remove the MEX-SJO-MEX and it is 80,000 miles.
But I need to go to SJO, not MEX.
Delta metal via ATL is not available anywhere around my dates (at low level).
And the MEX routing is as direct and logical of a Skyteam routing as ATL is.
DL doesn't want me to be able to make good use of partner availabability so that I will spend more miles for medium/high redemptions flown on DL metal?
Or is their IT unable to make pricing work like UA, CO, AA, US, and AS successfully do?
Grrrrr
Last edited by crazyMRer; Dec 30, 2011 at 1:08 pm