RealHJ

That is exactly the problem (bolding mine). DL has recently taken away the ability from the last few remaining agents to fix computer mis-pricing, and now it is practically impossible to get such computer mis-pricing (which is still far too common: e.g. most of the time you have an AS + DL flight in the same leg, it'll double charge it, esp. if DL flight is mid or high while AS is, of course, low - then it'll always do incorrect additive pricing) corrected. If it wasn't for this, then these pricing bugs would be workable. But without anyone being able to fix it, yet the agents knowing for a fact that the computer price is wrong, while being unable to do anything about it, is what compounds it and makes it so much worse. DL seems to think now, in its delusional line of thinking, that not only its customers, but even its staff, are its enemies.

fti

Could it be that you can't start in one country and end in another? That is often the case on revenue tickets (though I have no idea if it is the case on revenue tickets with DL).

I don't recall having combined DL medium with AS but whenever I combine DL and AS (both in low) I never have an issue with delta.com pricing it correctly. I did multiple such trips in 2011, never with an issue, always including an open jaw or a stopover, usually both. I always use multi-city to make the bookings.

crazyMRer

If you replace MEX in my example with YVR or another Canadian city, it will price as a open jaw. Different country is fine; think about your favorite Europe awards.

In the case of Africa-North America awards, Canada, USA, Mexico, and Central America are the same zone. So no reason for open jaw to not work.
Also, with Delta.com, open jaw pricing often is applied in strange combinations where one leg is a totally different award sector than the other.

In my example itinerary, I think if I were to replace CDG-MEX nonstop on AF or AM with a low level Delta CDG-ATL-MEX (not available most dates), it would price correctly as an open jaw.....

This morning, Delta.com would correctly price this at 100,000 miles:
NSI-CDG-ATL-SJO low level economy (open jaw)
ORD-CDG-NSI (business Air France)
but adding a stopover as follows upped the price to 135,000 miles
NSI-CDG-ATL-SJO low level economy (open jaw)
YVR-SEA-ORD stopover ORD-CDG-NSI (First/business Alaska, Air France)

Making the AS flights a separate pricing unit would make the increase 45,000 miles.
How does Delta.com even get a 35,000 increase from those AS flights with stopover? Any ideas where the 35,000 comes from?

fti

Not sure what you mean by my favorite Europe awards, but my open jaws on European trips still start and end in the same country (USA). That is not to say a ticket that starts in Mexico and ends in the USA is a problem, but your comment is puzzling to me.

crazyMRer

NSI-MEX
IAH-NSI

Should be an identical award (number of miles) as

MEX-NSI
NSI-IAH

It is the same open jaw regardless of if you start and end in NSI (same country) or open jaw in a different order.

The tickets I am working on now for my brother and sister actually do start and end in NSI - the pricing problem is the same for the same open jaw, regardless of starting point.

--------------------

MSP-CDG
LHR-MSP
is the same open jaw (number of miles) as
CDG-MSP
MSP-LHR

-------------------

Europe awards - based on your Flightmemory, I am guessing you have a lot of experience with DL Europe awards and not Africa awards.

RealHJ

He was quoting start in US and end in Canada or vice versa that works, so, that is not the case. (At least, it does NOT work start in MX and end in US or vice versa, yet it works start in US and end in CA or vice versa.)

This has been in my mind for a long time, actually:
* is flying out from one airport and coming back to another considered open jaw?
** so if doing that, can't have an actual open jaw for the destination?
* if so is that also considered a "stopover"? (in practicality)
* any rules on that (nothing in the public fare rules)? I presume the return airport has to be in the same "zone" (e.g. North America, N Asia, SE Asia, etc..) as the departure airport, but other than that, anything else? (I think the distance between origin and return airports had to be less than the shortest flight booked in the itineary, or something like that.. ?)

And unrelated, for stopovers, can a stopover be in another "transit-via" zone? E.g. if it's a logical routing, and under the MPM allowed, going from N Asia to Europe via SE Asia (that is really many parts of Central Asia as well, just DL is very poor at geography), can one have as stopover in SE Asia on an N Asia to Europe award booking?

Just the opposite for me. Has practically never worked. Usualy it's DL mid, AS low - then 100% no go (as there is no AS "mid," so it prices DL mid + AS low additively incorrectly). If DL low and AS low, then sometimes works, but most of the time doesn't as well (at least for me), and it's getting harder and harder to have DL fix it, though it's obviously a bug.

crazyMRer

Yes
You already have one; DL does not allow two on a single award calculation.

In theory, that might be case.

In practice, Delta.com will price things using half of two very different awards on a frequent basis, even though it would never qualify for valid open jaw pricing on a revenue ticket.

Example a:
Africa-CDG-Europe one-way
will often price as 45K Delta miles even when the time in CDG is just a connection; 30K (half the Africa-CDG award) + 15K (half the CDG-Europe award) = 45K price displayed on Delta.com

Example b:
Central America-USA-Europe one-way
will often price as half of Central America-->USA award + half of USA-->Europe award.

Conclusion: Delta.com does not (and has not recently) applied normal open jaw rules to award tickets

mtkeller

It does work sometimes, and a couple months back I addressed pretty much all of RealHJ's questions in a PM with examples from DL.dumb. Now this was before the recent bugs arose, so who knows what works now, but I was able to mock up US-S Asia via N Asia with a stopover in N Asia just fine.

As you say, one OJ, which can be on either end of the journey. Further, the departure and return airports need not be in the same zone. Iirc, I did something like CDG-JFK-DXB that priced out just fine.

RealHJ

That's good to know, and I guess not much point really finding out how it is now (if changed from a few months ago - as it's still unclear if some things did change), as who knows, a few months from now (if not a few days from now) it may be all changed yet again.

mnredfox

Is this a joke? I really hope not, but I never got any info stating this. And taking away abilities from agents, this can't possibly be true...

Ok, but according to the rules posted now it states OJ counts as a SO, granted I don't check the rules often, this is the first time I've seen this. If the rules didn't change, the T&C don't really state this now...

https://www.delta.com/skymiles/about...ules/index.jsp

mtkeller

That's the same language that was in the rules a year ago (and likely farther back, but that's all I feel confident in claiming). There have been no changes to the published rules with regard to OJ and SO. Go back and search around here, and you'll see posters like fti and me telling people "Yes, DL says you get one or the other, but in reality, you get both." Neither practice nor the letter of the law have changed here.

crazyMRer

What can I know from this:

Price with AS included 135,000: (Note: this price remains 135,000 even if AS flight to ORD is same day as AF continuation; even without the stopover)
http://ScrnSht.com/vhdvyw


Replace the AS flight to ORD on June 5th with a DL flights instead, price is down to 100,000 as it should be:
http://ScrnSht.com/bnusko


So what I thought was a no open jaw and stopover problem is actually a no AS flight pricing problem or ?
What is strange is the upcharge is 35,000 - what it costs to price the ATL-SJO separate, not 45,000, what it costs to price the SEA-ORD separate.

Logic?

cfischer

Logic? This is Delta my friend, too much logic is dangerous because customers might actually find a way to redeem on low award levels. If you keep it fuzzy most people will simply give up and pay whatever Delta is trying to charge them.

crazyMRer

Interestingly, this modification of the above results in 125,000 miles:
(I think 125,000 is actually correct because of 4 segment max in any direction and this has 5 segments on the return; but why 4 segments prices at 135,000 is the problem...)
http://ScrnSht.com/cbwmzp


This variation also prices at 125,000 miles:
http://ScrnSht.com/atmukr


--------------------------

Note to Delta defenders:

If Delta fixed this IT problem, or enabled me to give input helping them fix it now that I have narrowed down one of their pricing problems, or had ANY low level availability, I would be happy.

Delta metal low level availability for 2 seats:
ANY TIME or DATE June 1-10
Economy or First or one of each
Searched segment by segment, one day at a time (as that is only reliable delta.com method)
YVR-SLC-ORD
YVR-MSP-ORD/MDW
YVR-ATL-ORD/MDW

0 itineraries; 0 options

crazyMRer

So the pricing problem happens without AS included part of the time too!

http://ScrnSht.com/xrohhx


http://ScrnSht.com/medwkd


The segment limit has always been up to 4 segments permited in each direction. Has this changed recently to 3 segments max?