RIP CVG

Old Jun 24, 2011, 8:42 pm
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by avidflyer
But not for DL. Delta is doing anything BUT de emphasizing it. DTW is a gem of a connecting hub in both design and location. It aint going anywhere.
Absolutely agree.
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 8:44 pm
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Feather Man
Post merger, yes. Pre-merger, who knows? How many DTW auto makers are flying to Japan? Toyota has it's N.American HQ 2 miles away from CVG
Not as a destination at all I agree but it is a hub now and was for NW. The local traffic is really inconsequential to a hub but a hub tends to grow local traffic.
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 8:50 pm
  #33  
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Originally Posted by avidflyer
Not as a destination at all I agree but it is a hub now and was for NW. The local traffic is really inconsequential to a hub but a hub tends to grow local traffic.
My point exactly. What if they had picked CVG over DTW? O&D traffic is inconsequential....it is the connecting traffic that makes or breaks it. And pre-merger, CVG had the connecting traffic.

Did I mention how much I hate NW ? But you gotta love flying TPAC in Y on their old 747's

Flintstones, meet the Flintstones...NW's modern family
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 8:55 pm
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by Feather Man
My point exactly. What if they had picked CVG over DTW? O&D traffic is inconsequential....it is the connecting traffic that makes or breaks it. And pre-merger, CVG had the connecting traffic.

Did I mention how much I hate NW ? But you gotta love flying TPAC in Y on their old 747's

Flintstones, meet the Flintstones...NW's modern family
Precisely - if you exclude O&D and look at the better connecting hub only, obviously it's DTW based on the infrastructure. And DTW had even more connecting traffic than CVG.

NW is part of DL now, time to move on!
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 8:55 pm
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by Feather Man
It's always nice when someone intelligent and knowledgeable chimes in
Especially when CVG resides not in Cleveland, not in Cincinnati, not even in Ohio. It's in Kentucky.
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 8:59 pm
  #36  
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Originally Posted by SamuelS
Precisely - if you exclude O&D and look at the better connecting hub only, obviously it's DTW based on the infrastructure. And DTW had even more connecting traffic than CVG.

NW is part of DL now, time to move on!
Are you just trying to twist the knife?

Can't say I have researched DTW's connections pre-merger. But I do know CVG was DL's 2nd biggest hub for flights, pre-merger
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 8:59 pm
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Luggage Tag
Especially when CVG resides not in Cleveland, not in Cincinnati, not even in Ohio. It's in Kentucky.
^
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 9:04 pm
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[QUOTE=Feather Man;16620996]I have been contemplating this thread for several years. From a pragmatic and intellectual level, I fully understand that DL cannot support so many hubs, and I have tried in vain to look at the changes at CVG dispassionately. But the most recent cuts that reduced CVG to 150 flights a day has pushed me over the edge....


RIP CVG. It was great while it lasted.

I pretty much feel the same. I fly once or twice a week on DL but rarely out of Cincinnati. I live 35 miles from the airport but usually fly out of DAY-SDF-IND-CMH because of the high fares.

I blame the CVG airport authority as much as Delta.

Alas my next two flights are out of DAY.
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 9:19 pm
  #39  
 
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Originally Posted by Feather Man
First of all, I think all hubs shrank to some degree, except ATL, post merger.
I was referring to when Richard Anderson was CEO of Northwest. DTW shrank during his leadership.

You really think that DL bought NW only for DTW???
I did not imply that DL bought NW only for DTW. Instead, I implied that replacing CVG with MSP-DTW as its Midwestern gateways was indeed purposeful.

DTW is the epitome of the rust belt...What if DTW had the HIGHEST airfares in the USA for 10 years, do you think their traffic would have been the same?
DTW may be in the rust belt, but it's a significantly larger community than CVG (about twice the size). More importantly, it's a much stronger global business market. And since the merger, the gap in average airfares between DTW & CVG has shrunk. Yet despite soaring airfares, O/D at DTW is rebounding (since the economic collapse).

Nonetheless, DTW's average airfare is lowered by the likes of NK, WN, F9 and FL. If you were to compare DL's average fares at DTW and CVG, they'd be comparable. Yet O/D at the former is larger.

But what if CVG had the same investment that DTW had under NW?
What investment did NW make to DTW? Contrary to popular belief, NW did not provide funding for the McNamera Terminal. Meanwhile, DL itself funded Terminal B at Cincinnati. As DL made a larger investment to the CVG community than NW did for DTW, I'm not understanding your argument.

And compare delays from WX to DTW...
Unfortunately, $$$ drives traffic levels.

We went from 650 flights a day to 150 flights a day. Until the merger, we were DL's 2nd largest hub.
CVG was in the low-500s and ballooned to 650 as the result of DFW's closing. And obviously the hub was unprofitable at 650 (which included 763 to DEN, DFW, etc.) Service levels began decreasing long before the merger with NW was announced. While I have no doubt CVG would be a larger hub today had the merger not happened, the equilibrium would've settled at about half the flights it once had.

...but do not discount what the local government(s) would have done if they had not been so blind and stupid pre-merger. The merger affected three states, and if the collective governments had made a stink at the time of merger approval, concessions may have been made ( a la MSP)
What concessions were made at MSP? There was an agreement that DL would continue to operate at least 400 daily flights provided their loan to the MAC was outstanding, but DL just announced it intends to pay back the balance. DL no longer has any obligation to provide any level of service to MSP.

Nor would the Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana governments been able to stop the merger, anyway. DL would've insisted CVG was a big money loser (which was probably true) and service would've decreased regardless. Considering the above mentioned are Red states, I doubt they would've made a huge fuss.

Originally Posted by Feather Man
Post merger, yes. Pre-merger, who knows? How many DTW auto makers are flying to Japan? Toyota has it's N.American HQ 2 miles away from CVG
Too bad the crux of Toyota's corporate travel derives from Ann Arbor. And yes, there's a significant amount of traffic between Detroit and Asia. Hence why DTW-NGO survives but UA couldn't make SFO-NGO work (among other NGO failures).

Last edited by Bagels; Jun 24, 2011 at 9:29 pm Reason: typos
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 9:28 pm
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Originally Posted by StayingHomeIsBetter
CVG was a great airport... before DL Barbi-fied it. .. This was about 25 years ago, just after the last of the dinosaurs died.
I guess it's true that as one gets older, the memory goes .

Historically, more regional flights operated from CVG than mainline. CVG averaged only about 150 mainline flights, although that briefly climbed to 200 during the late 1990s/early 2000s.

http://www.departedflights.com/DLCVGhub.html

Originally Posted by NYBanker
@featherman - if it's any consolation, dtw has got to be next on the block. Give it 5 years or less...
Why do you think that?

As measured in ASM and RPM, DTW is the only hub (sans ATL) to experience significant growth post-merger. Yes, there's been an increase in regional jet flying but the same's true at MSP. Come fall, DTW & MSP will return to a near-equal amount of mainline jet flights. And neither is near the 80% RJ dominance that SLC & MEM have.

Last edited by Bagels; Jun 25, 2011 at 9:38 am Reason: typos
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 9:35 pm
  #41  
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Originally Posted by SamuelS
Precisely - if you exclude O&D and look at the better connecting hub only, obviously it's DTW based on the infrastructure. And DTW had even more connecting traffic than CVG.

NW is part of DL now, time to move on!
Ok guys what am I missing? And what does NW have to do with this? Beyond that CVG was the result of consolidation. I liked the airport but DTW wins on all fronts up against CVG.

Are you guys being serious that you think DTW will go away? It is one of the biggest and best asset that we got from the merger???? What are talking about?

Last edited by avidflyer; Jun 24, 2011 at 9:59 pm
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 9:38 pm
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Bagels
I was referring to when Richard Anderson was CEO of Northwest. DTW shrink during his leadership.

So where did the flights go after Dick reduced the flights into DTW?

I did not imply that DL bought NW only for DTW. Instead, I implied that replacing CVG with MSP-DTW as its Midwestern gateways was indeed purposeful.

Eh, that makes sense. Both are NW strongholds

DTW may be in the rust belt, but it's a significantly larger community than CVG (about twice the size). More importantly, it's a much stronger global business market. And since the merger, the gap in average airfares between DTW & CVG has shrunk. Yet despite soaring airfares, O/D at DTW is rebounding (since the economic collapse).

Stronger global market? I'm not saying your full of BS ( at least not outright) but CVG has it's share of Int'l biz...P&G, GE Jet Engines, Cintas, Chiquita, just to name a few

Nonetheless, DTW's average airfare is lowered by the likes of NK, WN, F9 and FL. If you were to compare DL's average fares at DTW and CVG, they'd be comparable. Yet O/D at the former is larger.

Hello...McFly !! how do you compare airfares like that? And no one can make an accurate comparison of CVG's actual O&D traffic. There is too much bleed off to DAY, SDF, IND & CMH

What investment did NW make to DTW? Contrary to popular belief, NW did not provide funding for the McNamera Terminal. Meanwhile, DL itself funded Terminal B at Cincinnati. As DL made a larger investment to the CVG community than NW did for DL, I'm not understanding your argument.

OK...it is true, Detroit funded the NW expansion. with taxpayers dollars And I do wish CVG had done something similar. It is always nice to see the little guy support big business

Unfortunately, $$$ drives traffic levels.



CVG was in the low-500s and ballooned to 650 as the result of DFW's closing. And obviously the hub was unprofitable at 650 (which included 763 to DEN, DFW, etc.) Service levels began decreasing long before the merger with NW was announced. While I have no doubt CVG would be a larger hub today had the merger not happened, the equilibrium would've settled at about half the flights it once had.

Maybe, maybe not. We will never know

What concessions were made at MSP? There was an agreement that DL would continue to operate at least 400 daily flights provided their loan to the MAC was outstanding, but DL just announced it intends to pay back the balance. DL no longer has any obligation to provide any level of service to MSP.

An example of a local gov;t being pro-active. Kudos to them, and shame on CVG's local governments.

Nor would the Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana governments been able to stop the merger, anyway. DL would've insisted CVG was a big money loser (which was probably true) and service would've decreased regardless. Considering the above mentioned are Red states, I doubt they would've made a huge fuss.

3 states could have made some kind of impact, if they had had the backbone.


Too bad the crux of Toyota's corporate travel derives from Ann Arbor. And yes, there's a significant amount of traffic between Detroit and Asia. Hence why DTW-NGO survives but UA couldn't make SFO-NGO work (among other NGO failures).
So why didn't Toyota pick DTW to be their N. American HQ?
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 9:40 pm
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Feather Man
So why didn't Toyota pick DTW to be their N. American HQ?
I obviously butchered my ability to respond to your quotes accurately
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 9:55 pm
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Bagels
I guess it's true that as one gets older, the memory goes .

Historically, more regional flights operated from CVG than mainline. CVG averaged only about 150 mainline flights, although that briefly climbed to 200 during the late 1990s/early 2000s.

http://www.departedflights.com/DLCVGhub.html
OK, I deserved that.

But I never remember taking a RJ flight into or out of CVG in the 1990s.

Perhaps it was the routes I was flying (all domestic) but it was not until sometime after that before the RJ abomination drove me away from CVG.

=================

Just remembered another factor. A lot of my trips to CVG ended in CVG... used to hold a lot of industry committee meetings there since it was centrally located and easy for a lot of folks to get to. At that time, you could fly actual main line jets between PHL and CVG.
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Old Jun 24, 2011, 10:03 pm
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Originally Posted by Feather Man
So where did the flights go after Dick reduced the flights into DTW?
To airline heaven, along with relinquished capacity from PIT, STL, CVG, etc.

Stronger global market? I'm not saying your full of BS ( at least not outright) but CVG has it's share of Int'l biz...P&G, GE Jet Engines, Cintas, Chiquita, just to name a few...
Yes, it's a stronger global market. DTW has service from LH, RJ and had service from BA until the economic collapse. Speculation is that BA will return, and undoubtedly would if DL were to end LON. CVG has no intercontinental service. Additionally, DL eagerly added GRU (and no, it's not relying on Asian connections) and is zealously trying to get it to go daily. They made no such attempts at CVG.

Most major communities have their share of multinational corporations. One advantage for Detroit is that many of its big players (GM, Ford and a plethora of automotive suppliers) have little corporate presence outside the community. Not true for CVG's big players (P&G, GE, etc.).

Hello...McFly !! how do you compare airfares like that? And no one can make an accurate comparison of CVG's actual O&D traffic. There is too much bleed off to DAY, SDF, IND & CMH.
1. It's fair to compare DL's average fares at DTW to DL's average fares at CVG.
2. It's impractical to estimate leakage. Many studies suggest that the majority of leakage is leisure/VFR. Many others suggest that the leakage is mostly offset by passengers traveling to CVG for direct flights. (And yes, there's still plenty - over 150 to 50+ destinations).

OK...it is true, Detroit funded the NW expansion. with taxpayers dollars And I do wish CVG had done something similar. It is always nice to see the little guy support big business
It was funded with airport bonds, not taxpayer money.

An example of a local gov;t being pro-active. Kudos to them, and shame on CVG's local governments.
How was MSP proactive? DL could've paid the loan balance off immediately and given MSP the finger; they agreed to very liberal terms. It's not likely MSP would drop below 400 flights, anyway. Not that it mattered, anyway, as DL repaid the loans only 2.5 years later.

3 states could have made some kind of impact, if they had had the backbone.
Three bright red states?

So why didn't Toyota pick DTW to be their N. American HQ?
What does that have to do with anything? Ann Arbor is their research center and derives a disproportionate amount of corporate travel. This isn't a unique situation.
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