RIP CVG

Old Jun 26, 2011, 3:23 pm
  #91  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: DTW, LAX, MBJ
Programs: AA, Delta Kryptonium (DM) Hyatt Diamond IHG Fake Plat (Ambassador), HH Gold
Posts: 832
Originally Posted by Feather Man
But I am still so pissed off I doubt I will ever feel the same way again about DL. I feel like CVG has been lied to and betrayed, the faithful wife left for the skank pole dancer named DTW. !
Why the misplaced hatred for DTW? "skank pole dancer??". I know hundreds of our fine pole dancers -- only six of them are skanky.

I used to fly to CVG regularly when I worked with Aircraft Engines and currently in work with Toyota. I enjoyed CVG. Take a look CVG at it's best - DTW is a better product. The terminals, runways and expansion ability.

Yes I am a hub captive, but as a business decision it was probably really straight forward. CVG and MEM probably don't make sense for DL stockholders -- like you.

Enjoy some graters, and a bowl of 3 way. Also please apologize to our pole dancers.
mapsgl is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 3:45 pm
  #92  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DFW
Programs: Non-Affiliated
Posts: 7,402
Originally Posted by mapsgl
Why the misplaced hatred for DTW? "skank pole dancer??". I know hundreds of our fine pole dancers -- only six of them are skanky.

<snip>

Enjoy some graters, and a bowl of 3 way. Also please apologize to our pole dancers.
LOL. Thanks for the laugh. I don't know many of the pole dancers... I know more Pole(ish) dancers than anything, and I'll bet they are offended too!
james318 is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 6:17 pm
  #93  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Programs: Formaldehyde Medallion DL DieMiles
Posts: 12,645
Originally Posted by pbarnette
...


There is no hyperbole. There was simply an observation that there is a group of members that do think DL can't see beyond ATL/is destroying everything great about NW/is not a global airline, and repeat these claims, ad nauseum. You do it in this very thread! If you don't want people to comment on these statements, and draw logical connections from them, then don't repeat them.
Er... actually, no.

Gotta call you on that one.

My posts are along the line that DL management is destroying DL. I think DL is a global airline, with the potential to be the premier US carrier. I just wonder whether they can survive their current management.

As to NWA, if you go back far enough you might find some posts where I, as a nearly 40 year legacy DL flyer, observed that NWA had some good features and that connecting thru DTW was far superior to connecting thru ATL. I'm sure, early on, that I was goaded into responding to some of the "Haha... we won" posts from some of those folks who regarded the acquisition to somehow be their personal achievement.

But, my posts tend more toward chiding both sides of the continuing, and unproductive, WE vs THEM debate... just as I called you out in your post for your attempt to re-stir the pot.

I view this continuing debate to be about as compelling, and as relevant, as the practice, back when I was in college, of having the fraternity pledges go urinate on the lawn of the rival fraternity... in an attempt to "prove" who was the better fraternity.

So, try again. You weren't even close enough for a point in a game of horseshoes.

A concession of your error would be the decent thing to do right now.
StayingHomeIsBetter is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 6:52 pm
  #94  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Programs: Delta
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by brewdog11
I love CVG myself.
CVG was built as a world class airport with three north south 10,000 foot runways. My hope (I live in Cincinnati) was that Memphis would go. Under Northwest, it was slowly dying if not dead. The idea of a more southerly regional hub to offload ATL seems rather obvious. Why Memphis was chosen for the region (southern OH, KY, TEN, ARK, TX, KS,OK etc.) is beyond me. Crummy terminal. Poor runways (# and length).
We'll see what the next 10 years brings as the economy recovers and airline traffic returns.
joesolo is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 7:16 pm
  #95  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The best state in the USA - Florida!
Programs: Marriott Titanium/LT Plat, AS MVP75K, AA PlatPro, UA Premier, Disney AP
Posts: 14,495
Originally Posted by Feather Man
I am amused....

For a lot of you, if CVG gets the ax, it is "ces't la vie"

But when it is YOUR hub that becomes the target of de-hubbing speculation, well then the rational is hard to comprehend....
It's not hard to comprehend.

With the merger, there were two sets of hubs that offered significant overlap to each other: Cincinnati vs Detroit and Memphis vs Atlanta.

In each case, both hubs are reasonably close to each other (332 mi for MEM/ATL, 225 mi for CVG/DTW) AND serve the same traffic flows (ATL/CVG, while being pretty close at 373 mi, did serve very different flows).

Memphis has been able to hold on slightly longer than Cincinnati as it does have some flows that can sustain it and not necessarily Atlanta - some smaller cities in Texas, plus additional frequencies into the Midwest. CVG however has the same exact flows as DTW; it doesn't add anything that can't be covered over DTW, or to a lesser extent, ATL.

Look around at the airline industry over the past decade. Shedding hubs that are close together that serve the same flows have been by-and-far eliminated. US shed Pittsburgh in lieu of PHL (268 miles away) and CLT (366 miles away). US shed Las Vegas to focus on Phoenix (248 miles away). American shed St. Louis for O'Hare (258 miles). It would surprise no one if the new United shed Cleveland once a contract they are locked into expires.

Yes, there are losers in this game. Mid-tier cities such as Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Cleveland, Cincinnati, etc. Truth is, look at the Great Lakes region. In this country, you have five major airlines now - Delta, American, United, US Airways and Southwest. Delta has DTW; American/United have ORD; Southwest has MDW; US Airways got out of that market with PIT to focus on more East Coast traffic. There's no reason for duplicity amongst airlines.

The fact that DTW (a) has much better infrastructure than CVG, (b) has more demand for traffic, (c) had a greater delta between RASM and CASM for the hubs and so on, and it makes it easy to cut that flow traffic out of CVG and move it to the larger hub.

It's a vicious game of airline economics. With margins what they are in the airline industry, every dollar is significant.
mersk862 is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 7:16 pm
  #96  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: STL
Programs: DL Platinum, US Gold, HHonors Diamond, Marriott Platinum, Hertz #1 Gold 5*
Posts: 335
Originally Posted by joesolo
Originally Posted by brewdog11
I love CVG myself.
CVG was built as a world class airport with three north south 10,000 foot runways. My hope (I live in Cincinnati) was that Memphis would go. Under Northwest, it was slowly dying if not dead. The idea of a more southerly regional hub to offload ATL seems rather obvious. Why Memphis was chosen for the region (southern OH, KY, TEN, ARK, TX, KS,OK etc.) is beyond me. Crummy terminal. Poor runways (# and length).
We'll see what the next 10 years brings as the economy recovers and airline traffic returns.
From what I understand, MEM is super cheap to operate out of. So, I completely understand Delta's rationale if that is true.

From a personal standpoint... I heart MEM, their BBQ offerings in the terminal can't be beat!
JimboM1391 is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 7:27 pm
  #97  
Moderator, Delta Skymiles and Mileage Run
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Seat 2A
Programs: DL Diamond/MM, Hyatt Diamond, former AS MVPG 75K, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,932
Originally Posted by JimboM1391
From what I understand, MEM is super cheap to operate out of. So, I completely understand Delta's rationale if that is true.

From a personal standpoint... I heart MEM, their BBQ offerings in the terminal can't be beat!
From a food standpoint, CVG has Gold Star Chili, where else can you get Cincinnati style Chili!
ryandc99 is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 7:28 pm
  #98  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The best state in the USA - Florida!
Programs: Marriott Titanium/LT Plat, AS MVP75K, AA PlatPro, UA Premier, Disney AP
Posts: 14,495
Originally Posted by ryandc99
From a food standpoint, CVG has Gold Star Chili, where else can you get Cincinnati style Chili!
Give me Interstate BBQ over chili any day of the week
mersk862 is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 8:02 pm
  #99  
Moderator, Delta Skymiles and Mileage Run
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Seat 2A
Programs: DL Diamond/MM, Hyatt Diamond, former AS MVPG 75K, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,932
Originally Posted by mersk862
Give me Interstate BBQ over chili any day of the week
This isn't normal Chili! I still crave Skyline... Can't wait to be back in Ohio this week and have some!
ryandc99 is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 8:13 pm
  #100  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,039
Originally Posted by StayingHomeIsBetter
I view this continuing debate to be about as compelling, and as relevant, as the practice, back when I was in college, of having the fraternity pledges go urinate on the lawn of the rival fraternity... in an attempt to "prove" who was the better fraternity.
I do wish to clarify that I'm not attempting to contribute to an us vs. them debate.

I continually read threads on FT and airliners that suggest DTW should be de-hubbed; these threads are constructed of manufactured faux arguments and ignore facts. For example, how often is it written that Delta (through its acquisition of Northwest) maintains ownership of DTW's McNamamera Terminal? No matter how many times the statement's debunked, it's continually reiterated. Thus my attempt to build a constructive counter-argument.

Airline hubs don't necessarily reflect the economic condition of the area they reside in. Nor do they directly reflect the population size, population growth or discretionary income within the area. Instead, they're driven by the amount of traffic and money spent on air transportation by the local business community. Keep in mind that many large corporations utilize general aviation for their transportation needs.

Detroit remains a global automotive hub. Understandably, most people are ignorant to the area's dynamics. They don't realize the wealth of multinational automotive suppliers with operations in the area, largely deriving as a mandate from the Big 3.

I certainly don't celebrate the downsizing of CVG; after all, from a consumer's standpoint, the lost capacity will ultimately lead to higher airfares. But having worked within the industry my entire adult life, I realize the need for consolidation. Anybody can reflect on the past decade, see the numerous changes DL imposed in CVG and rationalize that the hub wasn't working. If it had, DL would've likely moved forward as a standalone carrier.

But I'll never understand the hatred toward Detroit. Some of it is understandable. People from PIT, CLE, CVG and STL probably think their hub should still exist. Some people from MSP are bitter about DTW's Asian service, ignoring the stronger market (increasing automotive ties to Asia, etc.) illustrated to them through DOT data (limited access availability). But I don't understand, for example, the consensus within the UA fourm that the DTW call center should be closed. The DTW call center handles every Global Service call, yet some UA FTers insist they receive the best service from non-existent HNL GS employees. I guess I'll never understand. But thankfully, I don't really care .
Bagels is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 8:23 pm
  #101  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,039
Originally Posted by joesolo
CVG was built as a world class airport with three north south 10,000 foot runways. My hope (I live in Cincinnati) was that Memphis would go. Under Northwest, it was slowly dying if not dead. The idea of a more southerly regional hub to offload ATL seems rather obvious. Why Memphis was chosen for the region (southern OH, KY, TEN, ARK, TX, KS,OK etc.) is beyond me. Crummy terminal. Poor runways (# and length).
We'll see what the next 10 years brings as the economy recovers and airline traffic returns.
I don't understand.

MEM provides little competition to CVG's traffic flows. MEM was not dying under NW; it had remained consistent since RC greatly expanded it in the mid-1980s, although NW's attempts to further increase service failed. Yet it was a key hub for service into the deep Southeast. Of course, the RJ deteriorated MEM's importance (as NW was able to overfly MEM to DTW & MSP) and the hub's flows are redundant with ATL's.

Originally Posted by ryandc99
This isn't normal Chili! I still crave Skyline... Can't wait to be back in Ohio this week and have some!
No offense, but I doubt too many people associate Cincinnati or Ohio with premium chili . Probably predominately a local thing... just as coney dogs and gyros are associated with Detroiters as local favorites, but few people from outside the area associate them with the city.
Bagels is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 8:25 pm
  #102  
Moderator, Delta Skymiles and Mileage Run
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Seat 2A
Programs: DL Diamond/MM, Hyatt Diamond, former AS MVPG 75K, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,932
Originally Posted by Bagels



No offense, but I doubt too many people associate Cincinnati or Ohio with premium chili . Probably predominately a local thing... just as coney dogs and gyros are associated with Detroiters as local favorites, but few people from outside the area associate them with the city.
Well.... No offense taken, but I will ask if you have tried Cincinnati Chili??? We do have a wikipedia article, and you know everything found there is True and Important!
ryandc99 is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 8:31 pm
  #103  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,039
Originally Posted by ryandc99
Well.... No offense taken, but I will ask if you have tried Cincinnati Chili??? We do have a wikipedia article, and you know everything found there is True and Important!
No, I have not. I generally avoid hot & spicy foods - thus I don't eat much chili! But I will make an effort to try some when I'm in the area next!
Bagels is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 8:40 pm
  #104  
Moderator, Delta Skymiles and Mileage Run
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Seat 2A
Programs: DL Diamond/MM, Hyatt Diamond, former AS MVPG 75K, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,932
Originally Posted by Bagels
No, I have not. I generally avoid hot & spicy foods - thus I don't eat much chili! But I will make an effort to try some when I'm in the area next!
Well it is neither hot or spicy! It is in its own category... take a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_chili

I expect a report when you try it!
ryandc99 is offline  
Old Jun 26, 2011, 8:43 pm
  #105  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Western New York
Programs: UA Gold, former AA Gold
Posts: 49
Ah, CVG chili

Count me as another one of those who will miss getting Gold Star on a connection, and idly dreaming that one day there would be an airside Skyline.

It has been years, as it hasn't made economic sense to connect through CVG in a long time.
happenstance3 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.