Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchants local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Jul 12, 2016 | 3:37 pm
#2566
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 558
This is, again, completely misleading. In every case I've encountered, it is simply that the kiosk requires a PIN.
Yes, it would be nice if you kept to the topic, but someone has to stop you giving out false information to confuse those who might not have read the details elsewhere.
Yes, it would be nice if you kept to the topic, but someone has to stop you giving out false information to confuse those who might not have read the details elsewhere.
Jul 12, 2016 | 6:00 pm
#2567
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,108
I'm afraid it's the same for me. Even though other locations don't require authentication. Most likely the Australian kiosks insist on PIN in the CVM.
Jul 13, 2016 | 3:03 am
#2568
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,108
Valoot confirms it's a Point-of-Sale Multi-Currnecy Conversion service
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=18750&p=1 #10
I made further reply on http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=18750&p=2 #15, mainly raising concern that if merchants are allowed to provide this (and assuming what Valoot provides can be cloned), what's to ensure merchants and providers honour cardholder choice and allow opt-out if Visa Reason Code 30/Mastercard Reason Code 4846 don't exist?
Originally Posted by valoot
Hi all,
This is Valoot responding to your queries.
Firstly, thank you for your interest in the solution.
Next, let's address your main concerns as mentioned in the posts above
1. Is Valoot DCC?
Answer: Absolutely NOT. From a purely practical point of view, DCC only works after you have handed your card to the merchant and the card is inserted into the card terminal. Valoot presents you with the CHOICE for ultra competitive rates before you hand over your card.
2. Can you opt out of Valoot?
Answer: Absolutely YES. Valoot is always going to be offered as an option. As the cardholder you will always have the choice to pay in the currency of the merchant. We will not allow merchants to automatically do the conversion for you!
3. Will Visa and MC allow it?
Answer: Yes. After all, they have been forced by competition authorities around to allow DCC. That's proof the card schemes have to allow alternative FX providers. Valoot is going to be the best and most transparent of these alternative FX providers.
4. Is the local currency option the best option?
Answer: When compared with DCC option, YES. When compared to Valoot, NO. That's because under the local currency option, you (as the card holder) remain exposed to FX fluctuation, card scheme FX margin and issuing bank charges for "foreign currency conversion".
5. Why is Valoot better?
Answer: Valoot sources the rates straight from the FX market. These are the rates you see on Google Finance but couldn't previously trade on. We charge you a small service fee (never more than 2%) for this service. BUT - you always have the option of not choosing Valoot. The choice is yours.
6. Is Valoot Multi Currency Pricing on a physical card terminal?
Answer: Yes, pretty much. percysmith is correct when he mentions this in his post and describes Valoot as Multi Currency Pricing. Take this as further proof that Valoot is not DCC.
7. Is Valoot going to solve all problems, including world hunger?
Answer: No. We can't fix everything at once. Give us time to deploy our value proposition. We want to achieve 3 things: A) provide transparency to the FX process, B) provide savings to the cardholder and C) provide revenue to the merchant. We are shrinking the FX "pie" and sharing it with the merchant and the cardholder.
Finally, keep in mind that Valoot was started by consumers and card holders just like yourself. We want to solve the DCC and FX problems that have affected us personally and that have very likely affected you as well.
Don't hesitate to reach out to us at info(at)valoot.com for further info and keep visiting www.valoot.com. Very soon we will have a shorter, punchier video explaining the deployment of the solution.
This is Valoot responding to your queries.
Firstly, thank you for your interest in the solution.
Next, let's address your main concerns as mentioned in the posts above
1. Is Valoot DCC?
Answer: Absolutely NOT. From a purely practical point of view, DCC only works after you have handed your card to the merchant and the card is inserted into the card terminal. Valoot presents you with the CHOICE for ultra competitive rates before you hand over your card.
2. Can you opt out of Valoot?
Answer: Absolutely YES. Valoot is always going to be offered as an option. As the cardholder you will always have the choice to pay in the currency of the merchant. We will not allow merchants to automatically do the conversion for you!
3. Will Visa and MC allow it?
Answer: Yes. After all, they have been forced by competition authorities around to allow DCC. That's proof the card schemes have to allow alternative FX providers. Valoot is going to be the best and most transparent of these alternative FX providers.
4. Is the local currency option the best option?
Answer: When compared with DCC option, YES. When compared to Valoot, NO. That's because under the local currency option, you (as the card holder) remain exposed to FX fluctuation, card scheme FX margin and issuing bank charges for "foreign currency conversion".
5. Why is Valoot better?
Answer: Valoot sources the rates straight from the FX market. These are the rates you see on Google Finance but couldn't previously trade on. We charge you a small service fee (never more than 2%) for this service. BUT - you always have the option of not choosing Valoot. The choice is yours.
6. Is Valoot Multi Currency Pricing on a physical card terminal?
Answer: Yes, pretty much. percysmith is correct when he mentions this in his post and describes Valoot as Multi Currency Pricing. Take this as further proof that Valoot is not DCC.
7. Is Valoot going to solve all problems, including world hunger?
Answer: No. We can't fix everything at once. Give us time to deploy our value proposition. We want to achieve 3 things: A) provide transparency to the FX process, B) provide savings to the cardholder and C) provide revenue to the merchant. We are shrinking the FX "pie" and sharing it with the merchant and the cardholder.
Finally, keep in mind that Valoot was started by consumers and card holders just like yourself. We want to solve the DCC and FX problems that have affected us personally and that have very likely affected you as well.
Don't hesitate to reach out to us at info(at)valoot.com for further info and keep visiting www.valoot.com. Very soon we will have a shorter, punchier video explaining the deployment of the solution.
Aug 9, 2016 | 1:43 am
#2569
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,108
Aug 17, 2016 | 4:20 am
#2570
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,957
JB Hi-Fi at Westfield Sydney
A friend purchased a cable for A$25.95, and the offer came up with an exchange rate (from memory) of 0.7961 USD/AUD. The current MasterCard exchange rate is 0.7668, so it represented around a 3.8% markup. It would have been about A$1.00 in this case.
Fortunately the cashier handed the terminal to us. I watched it like a hawk and intercepted when the prompt came up, saving my friend from DCC. (He was ready to press yes.) The acquirer is ANZ.
Kopuz Souvenirs at Paddy's Market (Haymarket)
This was another ANZ terminal. I didn't get a look at the rate as I was making sure the cashier pressed the correct buttons (CLR to decline DCC). I avoided DCC without any hassle.
ANZ's implementation doesn't allow one to see the rate post facto either since the pending amount is the non-DCC amount if one declines.
A friend purchased a cable for A$25.95, and the offer came up with an exchange rate (from memory) of 0.7961 USD/AUD. The current MasterCard exchange rate is 0.7668, so it represented around a 3.8% markup. It would have been about A$1.00 in this case.
Fortunately the cashier handed the terminal to us. I watched it like a hawk and intercepted when the prompt came up, saving my friend from DCC. (He was ready to press yes.) The acquirer is ANZ.
Kopuz Souvenirs at Paddy's Market (Haymarket)
This was another ANZ terminal. I didn't get a look at the rate as I was making sure the cashier pressed the correct buttons (CLR to decline DCC). I avoided DCC without any hassle.
ANZ's implementation doesn't allow one to see the rate post facto either since the pending amount is the non-DCC amount if one declines.
Last edited by Majuki; Aug 20, 2016 at 1:50 pm
Aug 23, 2016 | 2:09 am
#2571
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,957
Sydney Harbour Marriott at Circular Quay
This hotel has changed its POS system. Upon check-in I saw VX 820 terminals from Currency Select. I inquired at check in with a longtime employee who assured me that a preauth would be just that and any currency selections would be available via a clear choice upon checkout. Seeing as though I had some time when I was checking out on Monday, I decided to wait. I visited the Customs House (attached restaurant/bar at the back of the hotel), which also had the Currency Select terminals. These did not present any DCC option and produced a clean receipt without any user input:
After a 6-night stay, I checked out. Fortunately, I was handed the terminal for both transactions. DCC was offered at a 3.8% markup. The first photo is the DCC prompt. The second photo is the confirmation of chosen currency (AUD in this case with "Select AUD currency?"). While I didn't try to opt-in to DCC, my assumption would be a similar confirmation for home currency:
Another interesting tidbit was on the receipt it appeared as though one would have to initial to opt-in to DCC. Since I opted out, my bills didn't show any exchange rate:
It's a welcome move if that were the case since it shows a deliberate user intent to opt-in to DCC. ^
DCC Offer: 0.80674 USD/AUD (quoted 3.80% markup)
Visa Rate at posting: 0.769623 (actual 4.82% markup)
Room 1: 1484.10 AUD / 1197.28 USD DCC offer / 1142.20 USD at posting / 55.08 USD saved by opting out of DCC
Room 2: 2188.92 AUD / 1765.89 USD DCC offer / 1684.64 USD at posting / 81.25 USD saved by opting out of DCC
Total amount saved by avoiding DCC: $136.33
This hotel has changed its POS system. Upon check-in I saw VX 820 terminals from Currency Select. I inquired at check in with a longtime employee who assured me that a preauth would be just that and any currency selections would be available via a clear choice upon checkout. Seeing as though I had some time when I was checking out on Monday, I decided to wait. I visited the Customs House (attached restaurant/bar at the back of the hotel), which also had the Currency Select terminals. These did not present any DCC option and produced a clean receipt without any user input:
After a 6-night stay, I checked out. Fortunately, I was handed the terminal for both transactions. DCC was offered at a 3.8% markup. The first photo is the DCC prompt. The second photo is the confirmation of chosen currency (AUD in this case with "Select AUD currency?"). While I didn't try to opt-in to DCC, my assumption would be a similar confirmation for home currency:
Another interesting tidbit was on the receipt it appeared as though one would have to initial to opt-in to DCC. Since I opted out, my bills didn't show any exchange rate:
It's a welcome move if that were the case since it shows a deliberate user intent to opt-in to DCC. ^
DCC Offer: 0.80674 USD/AUD (quoted 3.80% markup)
Visa Rate at posting: 0.769623 (actual 4.82% markup)
Room 1: 1484.10 AUD / 1197.28 USD DCC offer / 1142.20 USD at posting / 55.08 USD saved by opting out of DCC
Room 2: 2188.92 AUD / 1765.89 USD DCC offer / 1684.64 USD at posting / 81.25 USD saved by opting out of DCC
Total amount saved by avoiding DCC: $136.33
Aug 24, 2016 | 1:10 pm
#2572
Join Date: Aug 2008
Programs: HHonors Gold, Marriott Lifetime Gold, IHG Gold, OZ*G, AA Gold, AS MVP
Posts: 1,944
Cautionary note:
Some merchants at PVG airport (Shanghai, China) offer DCC. The terminals are kinda compliant BOC terminals (will offer currency choice) but cashiers (at least at FamilyMart) are trained to choose foreign currency and the terminal has no "void" option once the transaction is authorized. I tried, fiddled around with the terminal for a good five or ten minutes trying to find it. It's obviously just hidden because the "function" menu is numbered and there are large gaps in the numbering. Attempting to type in a "missing" function number (I presume one of them would be "void") asks for a "bank password".
In that case the manager was called and after making a scene (and showing them that pushing "cancel" on currency selection screen did not cancel the whole transaction with an example purchase of a plastic bag) they gave me back the difference (and the charge for the bag) as cash out of the till. I thought they learned when the terminals started presenting currency choice again. Obviously not.
Some merchants at PVG airport (Shanghai, China) offer DCC. The terminals are kinda compliant BOC terminals (will offer currency choice) but cashiers (at least at FamilyMart) are trained to choose foreign currency and the terminal has no "void" option once the transaction is authorized. I tried, fiddled around with the terminal for a good five or ten minutes trying to find it. It's obviously just hidden because the "function" menu is numbered and there are large gaps in the numbering. Attempting to type in a "missing" function number (I presume one of them would be "void") asks for a "bank password".
In that case the manager was called and after making a scene (and showing them that pushing "cancel" on currency selection screen did not cancel the whole transaction with an example purchase of a plastic bag) they gave me back the difference (and the charge for the bag) as cash out of the till. I thought they learned when the terminals started presenting currency choice again. Obviously not.
Aug 24, 2016 | 2:38 pm
#2573
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Cautionary note:
Some merchants at PVG airport (Shanghai, China) offer DCC. The terminals are kinda compliant BOC terminals (will offer currency choice) but cashiers (at least at FamilyMart) are trained to choose foreign currency and the terminal has no "void" option once the transaction is authorized. I tried, fiddled around with the terminal for a good five or ten minutes trying to find it. It's obviously just hidden because the "function" menu is numbered and there are large gaps in the numbering. Attempting to type in a "missing" function number (I presume one of them would be "void") asks for a "bank password".
In that case the manager was called and after making a scene (and showing them that pushing "cancel" on currency selection screen did not cancel the whole transaction with an example purchase of a plastic bag) they gave me back the difference (and the charge for the bag) as cash out of the till. I thought they learned when the terminals started presenting currency choice again. Obviously not.
Some merchants at PVG airport (Shanghai, China) offer DCC. The terminals are kinda compliant BOC terminals (will offer currency choice) but cashiers (at least at FamilyMart) are trained to choose foreign currency and the terminal has no "void" option once the transaction is authorized. I tried, fiddled around with the terminal for a good five or ten minutes trying to find it. It's obviously just hidden because the "function" menu is numbered and there are large gaps in the numbering. Attempting to type in a "missing" function number (I presume one of them would be "void") asks for a "bank password".
In that case the manager was called and after making a scene (and showing them that pushing "cancel" on currency selection screen did not cancel the whole transaction with an example purchase of a plastic bag) they gave me back the difference (and the charge for the bag) as cash out of the till. I thought they learned when the terminals started presenting currency choice again. Obviously not.
Aug 24, 2016 | 5:30 pm
#2574
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,108
Some merchants at PVG airport (Shanghai, China) offer DCC. The terminals are kinda compliant BOC terminals (will offer currency choice) but cashiers (at least at FamilyMart) are trained to choose foreign currency and the terminal has no "void" option once the transaction is authorized. I tried, fiddled around with the terminal for a good five or ten minutes trying to find it. It's obviously just hidden because the "function" menu is numbered and there are large gaps in the numbering. Attempting to type in a "missing" function number (I presume one of them would be "void") asks for a "bank password".
Aug 29, 2016 | 8:41 pm
#2575
Join Date: May 2009
Location: GLA
Posts: 1,265
The Airbnb link is no longer current. It appears there is no way to opt-out of DCC on the Airbnb site now. 
Aug 29, 2016 | 10:11 pm
#2576
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 558
Aug 29, 2016 | 10:14 pm
#2577
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,108
Correct, you can't. They have multiple merchant accounts, so it isn't technically DCC. https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/...h-any-currency
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...ldid=526184556
Aug 30, 2016 | 1:20 am
#2578
Join Date: May 2009
Location: GLA
Posts: 1,265
Correct, you can't. They have multiple merchant accounts, so it isn't technically DCC. https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/...h-any-currency
Aug 30, 2016 | 2:44 am
#2579
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,108
Global Blue's been doing this on VAT refunds for some time:
http://www.globalblue.com/customer-s...shopping-faqs/
http://www.globalblue.com/globalblue...thodsTerms.htm
Seems they've done this with impunity for refunds.
If Airbnb gets away with doing this for charges, I won't be surprised if other disreputable merchants take this up.
http://www.globalblue.com/customer-s...shopping-faqs/
http://www.globalblue.com/globalblue...thodsTerms.htm
Seems they've done this with impunity for refunds.
If Airbnb gets away with doing this for charges, I won't be surprised if other disreputable merchants take this up.
Aug 30, 2016 | 3:02 am
#2580
Join Date: May 2009
Location: GLA
Posts: 1,265
Global Blue's been doing this on VAT refunds for some time:
http://www.globalblue.com/customer-s...shopping-faqs/
http://www.globalblue.com/globalblue...thodsTerms.htm
Seems they've done this with impunity for refunds.
If Airbnb gets away with doing this for charges, I won't be surprised if other disreputable merchants take this up.
http://www.globalblue.com/customer-s...shopping-faqs/
http://www.globalblue.com/globalblue...thodsTerms.htm
Seems they've done this with impunity for refunds.
If Airbnb gets away with doing this for charges, I won't be surprised if other disreputable merchants take this up.