Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchants local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Nov 8, 2016 | 11:39 am
#2656
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
I had a interesting experience in Krakow, Poland today.
Gave my USD card to pay and when the merchant processed the payment, there was no choice for PLN. It auto printed in USD. The receipt did say I was given a choice, which I did not get. I, of course refused the purchase and paid with a PLN card.
Reading the wiki it seems that there are ways to dispute it, but what happens if I have no choice? For instance I am at dinner, and want to pay by card? I ask before that they accept Visa. Can I refuse to pay if I give them my USD based card, it auto prices in USD and the receipt said I was given a choice? The wording on it was "I accept that I have been offered a choice of currencies for payment offered by eservice and that this choice is final. I will have no recourse against payment schemes concerning the currency conversion or its disclosure. I accept the conversion and final amount and that the selected transaction currency is USD"
Has anyone filed a dispute with Chase successfully?
Gave my USD card to pay and when the merchant processed the payment, there was no choice for PLN. It auto printed in USD. The receipt did say I was given a choice, which I did not get. I, of course refused the purchase and paid with a PLN card.
Reading the wiki it seems that there are ways to dispute it, but what happens if I have no choice? For instance I am at dinner, and want to pay by card? I ask before that they accept Visa. Can I refuse to pay if I give them my USD based card, it auto prices in USD and the receipt said I was given a choice? The wording on it was "I accept that I have been offered a choice of currencies for payment offered by eservice and that this choice is final. I will have no recourse against payment schemes concerning the currency conversion or its disclosure. I accept the conversion and final amount and that the selected transaction currency is USD"
Has anyone filed a dispute with Chase successfully?
Nov 8, 2016 | 8:04 pm
#2657
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hawai'i Nei
Programs: Au: HA, UA, Marriott, Hilton; GE
Posts: 7,810
Nov 9, 2016 | 8:19 am
#2658
Moderator, Hertz; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: KRK
Programs: Many
Posts: 12,723
Did you discuss it with the waiter? Did you ask to speak to the manager? I know you probably would have gotten the no speak English excuse or we have no control over it. In that case, cross out the statement about you accept the conversion as final and write local currency option not offered. Tell the manager you will be disputing the charge and it will be charged back. And if they still refuse to do the transaction properly, dispute the transaction with your bank either over the phone or by writing and demanding to see the signed signature slip. Hopefully that will do the trick. Chase is aware of the problem and for small amounts, prefers to simply credit the account for the difference and as long as they do that, this cancer will continue to metastasize through the travelling world.
Nov 9, 2016 | 3:47 pm
#2659
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
If there is no language barrier and the cashier/merchant are receptive, try working with them to see if there is an opt-out available. Some merchants have instructed their staff to bill in home currency because they're getting a cut of the profits on the ripoff exchange rate. Many times there's an option they're bypassing or selecting for you. Other times there are hidden or post facto opt-out options like pressing cancel or going into the POS terminal menu to select the transaction currency.
Fortunately Chase, as JEFFJAGUAR pointed out, is well aware of this issue.
Nov 11, 2016 | 9:19 am
#2660
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 231
Currency conversion - Chase being blamed - I don't think so
Please bear with the background information.
Ive used my CSP outside the US many times in different currencies and ultimately the dollar charge on my credit card works out to coincide pretty well with oanda.coms currency conversion chart. For example, a charge made in Greece in euros on September 15, 2016 had an exchange rate on my Chase bill of 1.126166666. On oanda.coms currency conversion chart for that day, the rate was 1.12. There has always been this excellent correlation.
Ive now been working with a South African tour company that chose to negotiate price with me in dollars, but now that I am ready to charge, the charge will be made in rand. Full disclosure I knew the charge would be made in rand, which they claim is their law.
However - they have converted the price from rand to dollars using a South African bank that they will not disclose the name of. My negotiated deposit of $5569 converts at their todays rate to 80,821 rand per an invoice they have submitted me. If Chase is consistent with how they have converted in the past, this will result in a rough dollar charge of $5911, a difference of $342 more than my negotiated price of $5569.
The disagreement I am having with the tour company is that they insist this overage is a result of Chase and that all the blame is on my end. Whereas the way I see it, the problem begins with their conversion of dollars to rand at a rate that that was unexpected to me and cannot be verified because they wont disclose the bank name. From there, Chase will convert the rand on my bill no differently than it normally does.
There will be a second payment in the same dollar amount next year and the fact that their bank creates or adopts its own exchange rate concerns me for that payment.
For the life of me I just keep thinking that converting X currency to Y currency and then back to X, all on the same day, should result in the two Xs being SOMEWHAT close to each other. I am not at all implying I am looking for exact numbers just a reasonable spread - certainly not $342 difference.
They are so adamant that I'm beginning to doubt myself and am hoping someone can help me understand!
Thanks in advance!
Ive used my CSP outside the US many times in different currencies and ultimately the dollar charge on my credit card works out to coincide pretty well with oanda.coms currency conversion chart. For example, a charge made in Greece in euros on September 15, 2016 had an exchange rate on my Chase bill of 1.126166666. On oanda.coms currency conversion chart for that day, the rate was 1.12. There has always been this excellent correlation.
Ive now been working with a South African tour company that chose to negotiate price with me in dollars, but now that I am ready to charge, the charge will be made in rand. Full disclosure I knew the charge would be made in rand, which they claim is their law.
However - they have converted the price from rand to dollars using a South African bank that they will not disclose the name of. My negotiated deposit of $5569 converts at their todays rate to 80,821 rand per an invoice they have submitted me. If Chase is consistent with how they have converted in the past, this will result in a rough dollar charge of $5911, a difference of $342 more than my negotiated price of $5569.
The disagreement I am having with the tour company is that they insist this overage is a result of Chase and that all the blame is on my end. Whereas the way I see it, the problem begins with their conversion of dollars to rand at a rate that that was unexpected to me and cannot be verified because they wont disclose the bank name. From there, Chase will convert the rand on my bill no differently than it normally does.
There will be a second payment in the same dollar amount next year and the fact that their bank creates or adopts its own exchange rate concerns me for that payment.
For the life of me I just keep thinking that converting X currency to Y currency and then back to X, all on the same day, should result in the two Xs being SOMEWHAT close to each other. I am not at all implying I am looking for exact numbers just a reasonable spread - certainly not $342 difference.
They are so adamant that I'm beginning to doubt myself and am hoping someone can help me understand!
Thanks in advance!
Nov 11, 2016 | 9:25 am
#2661
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atherton, CA
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP; Owner, Green Bay Packers
Posts: 21,685
You should have negotiated the price in Rand. You're basically getting charged for two conversions this way.
Nov 11, 2016 | 9:36 am
#2662
Flyertalk Posting Legend Moderator: Credit Card Programs, American Express, Capital One, Chase, Citi, Diners Club, Eco Travel, Signatures
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Posts: 51,876
There is no need to even mention Chase in the discussion. The exchange rate will be determined by VISA (or MasterCard), not by the card issuer. Unless your agreement with the tour company references a benchmark for the exchange rate you have effectively agreed to allow them to convert Dollars to Rand at any rate they choose.
Nov 11, 2016 | 9:45 am
#2663
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 231
They picked the currency to negotiate in, and never having encountered this issue before (I should say - no one else ever used such a tactic on me) I didn't see any harm in it and did not request rand to be the quoted currency. Lesson learned! But give me some credit, at least I recognized what was happening now, and I have not made any payments, and can walk away. I was just looking for validation that my assessment was correct and that it is not my bank/card that is creating the problem.
I was just looking for validation that my assessment was correct and that it is not my bank/card that is creating the problem.
Nov 11, 2016 | 9:56 am
#2664
Flyertalk Posting Legend Moderator: Credit Card Programs, American Express, Capital One, Chase, Citi, Diners Club, Eco Travel, Signatures
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Miami, Mpls & London
Programs: AA, IHG & Marriott Platinum; DL & HH Gold
Posts: 51,876
I think you need to reframe the negotiation in a way that avoids the "your bank" versus "my credit card" finger pointing. Suggest that the conversion from the agreed Dollar price to the Rand card transaction amount should be based on a published source that both parties can access such as xe.com, oanada.com, VISA or a similar source which they might suggest. If the sources report different rates, calculate an average.
However, be aware that the exchange rate you actually pay will be determined on the date the transaction posts, which means it may still be different than you expect based on the negotiation. Substantial discussion here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...all-cards.html
However, be aware that the exchange rate you actually pay will be determined on the date the transaction posts, which means it may still be different than you expect based on the negotiation. Substantial discussion here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...all-cards.html
Nov 11, 2016 | 10:13 am
#2665
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 231
Mia, I appreciate the suggestion, but they've been pretty clear that it's their way or the highway. The proposal says "a South African bank" and that is their position. Granted they have not been told outright we plan to walk away if this can't be resolved, but I doubt they will change their minds. They've been given ample opportunity to throw in something else of value to bring the difference closer together - an optional tour or a meal or ??? I asked the name of the bank - no response - which leads me to believe someone picks the one that is the most advantageous for them on a daily basis. And on the other hand I could be being too suspicious.
Who is actually getting the additional money that would come out of my pocket - the company or the bank or possibly both depending on their agreement?
And yes, I realize no matter what happened, everything was relative to the day of the transaction posting. I'm used to that, and that's fine.
Who is actually getting the additional money that would come out of my pocket - the company or the bank or possibly both depending on their agreement?
And yes, I realize no matter what happened, everything was relative to the day of the transaction posting. I'm used to that, and that's fine.
Nov 11, 2016 | 10:35 am
#2666
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atherton, CA
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP; Owner, Green Bay Packers
Posts: 21,685
One thing to consider: if they show they have no qualms screwing you in a relatively small way like this, how do you know they won't screw you in a big way in terms of the tour?
Maybe this is a good warning.
Maybe this is a good warning.
Nov 12, 2016 | 2:10 am
#2667
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
Ive now been working with a South African tour company that chose to negotiate price with me in dollars, but now that I am ready to charge, the charge will be made in rand. Full disclosure I knew the charge would be made in rand, which they claim is their law.
However - they have converted the price from rand to dollars using a South African bank that they will not disclose the name of. My negotiated deposit of $5569 converts at their todays rate to 80,821 rand per an invoice they have submitted me. If Chase is consistent with how they have converted in the past, this will result in a rough dollar charge of $5911, a difference of $342 more than my negotiated price of $5569.
However - they have converted the price from rand to dollars using a South African bank that they will not disclose the name of. My negotiated deposit of $5569 converts at their todays rate to 80,821 rand per an invoice they have submitted me. If Chase is consistent with how they have converted in the past, this will result in a rough dollar charge of $5911, a difference of $342 more than my negotiated price of $5569.
It seems factual that South African-based companies are not allowed to receive Rand online directly https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/...AR/td-p/788178 (posters mention trying to find alternatives to Paypal) (this thread is updated to 2016)
South African-based companies seem only to be able to receive USD online (may be currencies other than ZAR, but not ZAR directly) https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/.../788178/page/3
Then they have to go to a bank to convert the USD to ZAR before they can use it https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/...AR/td-p/788178 (they might not even be allowed to use that USD as USD).
So your tour co may be telling the truth with regard to ZAR. I think neither you nor they (even if they made a best-effort basis) can realistically get the wholesale rate you observed. You might be able to get it if you entered South Africa and charged your card directly. Or you are/they are a financial institution.
What they withheld is the exchange rate they need to convert ZAR to USD. Even if it is a real bank rate, it's a rather unpleasant surprise.
I'm sure best practice is to quote "R80,821, converted to US$5,911 by our bank (no alternatives accepted)". So you're paying US$5,911 - take it or leave it.
I'm not sure is there any chargeback available for a South African merchant that fails to quote. It's not a straightforward case where a merchant quoted you in one currency and deliberately charged another.
P.S. the option to pay Rand also seems open to companies not based in South Africa e.g. Cathay Pacific and British Airways, but if you're dealing with a SA-based company you're SOL.
Last edited by percysmith; Nov 12, 2016 at 2:19 am
Nov 13, 2016 | 1:56 pm
#2668
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 231
Thanks!
I'm no longer the OP now that my post was moved into this thread but I just wanted to thank everyone who responded to my question about converting dollars to rand back to dollars. I tried Mia's approach of offering a middle ground, but was immediately shut down as I expected I would be. "Don't let the door hit you.." was pretty much the response. I ended up cancelling the tour over this issue. It was a learning experience. I've probably done close to 50 tours at least (day tours, multi-day tours, and so forth) that I negotiated from home in various currencies or in dollars, and was always mindful of the currency issue - maybe I was lucky until now, but everyone seemed to use the same rate or close to the same rate no matter where in the world we would be travelling, until now. It was really sad, but I did feel as Doc Savage pointed out - if this was their attitude now, what might result while we were travelling. Percysmith, your links to Paypal did provide insight as well. Never again will I deal in dollars when getting tour quotes - they will always be in local currency and understood up front that they will be charged in local currency. Thanks again for the help.
Nov 13, 2016 | 10:10 pm
#2669
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
Bergy Bits in similar future circumstances, ask if they are able to accept a payment of USD via Paypal as a surety, on the understanding that the amount will be refunded (in USD) if you do show up as contracted and pay in ZAR in person.
This was what I did in http://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/6982?page=1 #10 (in my case, I put down $1,000 as surety for a merchant to procure an out-of-stock watch but the merchant was unable to procure the watch so refunded the $1,000 to me in full. I suffered a small exchange loss which you will not becasue you have USD-denominated cards).
This was what I did in http://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/6982?page=1 #10 (in my case, I put down $1,000 as surety for a merchant to procure an out-of-stock watch but the merchant was unable to procure the watch so refunded the $1,000 to me in full. I suffered a small exchange loss which you will not becasue you have USD-denominated cards).
Nov 15, 2016 | 10:50 pm
#2670
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: MPC, Hyatt, Marriott
Posts: 410
With Chase, in my two past DCC disputes, they've given me courtesy refunds for the exchange rate differences (rather than disputing the full amount). When I do the dispute online (through Chase's website), I just do a partial dispute. Do you select full dispute? I'm curious as to the basis to dispute the full amount when it is really just an exchange rate difference for a few dollars (in my case, it is often under US$5).