Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchants local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Oct 8, 2014 | 11:27 pm
#1156
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
zyxlsy: good but it trips up cards from one of our banks http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/catha...l#post23642726 . Unfortunately it's the best bank to earn miles from JPY spending, about 4 miles per US$ spent.
My was OK this trip for 3 days, totaling about 10 chip transactions and 20 swipe transactions. Of course it was in Tokyo.
Interestingly Japan has a lower CC acceptance rate than Korea (to me). Majority of the people still carry tons of coins. Of course we needed some too, when buying bottled drinks and ordering ramen
Oct 9, 2014 | 12:02 am
#1157
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
I am about to throw the slips I have from Japan to trash bin. Man this CC sales slip from JR Narita looks nice...
It's just a slip... But it's got JR engravings all over the train ticket-like slip.
It's just a slip... But it's got JR engravings all over the train ticket-like slip.
Oct 10, 2014 | 4:35 am
#1158
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
I finished my last transaction in Taiwan with a successful DCC opt out - the receipt printed as SALE OPT_O with [X]NTD box checked - and headed to Hong Kong. Both percysmith and I will be meeting at Greyhound Cafe tomorrow to try to obtain a DCC free sales slip. However, I have had a couple of transactions, and DCC showed up on the first two transactions.
First Transaction - DFS HKIA (DCC - Successful Opt-Out)
Terminal Type: Euronet
My wife collects the DFS exclusive boxes of Godiva chocolate, and she wanted the Hong Kong box. I got to test out the DCC functionality that percysmith was curious about a month ago:
I'm happy to report that it was very easy to opt out of DCC. I specified HKD upfront, and the woman directed me to the signature pad. While there was a box around the USA flag and showing the exchange rate on the right-hand side, the left-hand side had the HK flag and amount of HK$270.00 clearly denominated. I pressed the HK flag, and the receipt printed without me having to sign for the transaction:
The receipt printed free of any DCC verbiage, and the pending transaction amount on my Chase Sapphire Preferred account is $34.82. This matches the Visa rate exactly:
270.00 HKD x 0.128963 USD/HKD = 34.82 USD
The bottom line is that with the payment terminals used at DFS, it's easy to select between the two currencies - always choose the flag that isn't yours! - and the pending transaction amount is the non-DCC amount.
If all transactions with DCC were this hassle free for me, I'd have few problems. I still think the fact that the machine places the DCC option to the right probably gets more people to select it by default, but that's just a guess. I'm fine if people pay for their ignorance (or stubborn behavior) as long as I can opt out of DCC while continuing my educational campaign.
Second Transaction - HSBC ATM (DCC Free)
Terminal Type: HSBC ATM
There was no DCC offer, and I withdrew HK$3000. The pending transaction amount on Fidelity of $386.89 matches the Visa rate:
3000 HKD x 0.128963 USD/HKD = 386.89 USD
I avoid Travelex ATMs because I know they like to offer DCC and make it seem like it's the end of the world if you don't accept their rate. I'm glad to know the World's Local Bank has confined its DCC practices to POS transactions, at least for now.
Third Transaction - MTR Airport Station Manned Counter (DCC - Successful(?) Opt-Out)
Terminal Type: Citibank
Thanks to percysmith for the suggestion of getting pair of tickets to qualify for the group rate! After standing in line for quite awhile I ordered the tickets and handed over my Chase Sapphire Preferred. It was a Citibank terminal, and I noticed a tent card off to the side saying something to the effect of paying in your own currency.
The lady had already inserted the card and I quickly blurted, "Charge HKD please!!" This was the first time I have encountered DCC in mass transit. I understand hotels, department stores, restaurants (mostly upscale ones), and the occasional souvenir shop, but this was a first. I got a thermal paper signature slip with the tick boxes, so I ticked HKD and signed. I got this final receipt that doesn't contain DCC verbiage and is denominated in HKD, so I think I'm fine:
The HK$160 transaction is pending with Chase as $21.50. I used the Visa rate to calculate what the transaction should have been:
160 HKD x 0.128963 USD/HKD = 20.63 USD
it would appear that the DCC markup is 4.2%:
20.63 USD * 1.042 = 21.50 USD
In absolute terms, this is $0.87, so it's not a big problem if DCC actually happens. I will still, however, fight this on principle, but I expect Chase to issue a courtesy credit if I can get someone knowledgeable with Reason Code 76 chargebacks.
Fourth Transaction - Courtyard Hong Kong Check-in (DCC Free)
Terminal Type: Bank of China (Hong Kong)
I requested HKD to which the front desk clerk said that it would be settled upon checkout. Not wanting to mess anything up with earning Marriott Rewards points, I reluctantly handed over my Marriott Rewards Visa (Chase). I saw her key in the amount of HK$12000. So my surprise, when I checked my online account, the pending authorization hold of $1547.56 matches the Visa rate exactly:
12000 HKD x 0.128963 USD/HKD = 1547.56 USD
I wasn't hit with DCC at this hotel three years ago - I can't say the same for the Venetian Macau across the harbor - so I assumed it wasn't automatic at this hotel.
First Transaction - DFS HKIA (DCC - Successful Opt-Out)
Terminal Type: Euronet
My wife collects the DFS exclusive boxes of Godiva chocolate, and she wanted the Hong Kong box. I got to test out the DCC functionality that percysmith was curious about a month ago:
The receipt printed free of any DCC verbiage, and the pending transaction amount on my Chase Sapphire Preferred account is $34.82. This matches the Visa rate exactly:
270.00 HKD x 0.128963 USD/HKD = 34.82 USD
The bottom line is that with the payment terminals used at DFS, it's easy to select between the two currencies - always choose the flag that isn't yours! - and the pending transaction amount is the non-DCC amount.
If all transactions with DCC were this hassle free for me, I'd have few problems. I still think the fact that the machine places the DCC option to the right probably gets more people to select it by default, but that's just a guess. I'm fine if people pay for their ignorance (or stubborn behavior) as long as I can opt out of DCC while continuing my educational campaign.
Second Transaction - HSBC ATM (DCC Free)
Terminal Type: HSBC ATM
There was no DCC offer, and I withdrew HK$3000. The pending transaction amount on Fidelity of $386.89 matches the Visa rate:
3000 HKD x 0.128963 USD/HKD = 386.89 USD
I avoid Travelex ATMs because I know they like to offer DCC and make it seem like it's the end of the world if you don't accept their rate. I'm glad to know the World's Local Bank has confined its DCC practices to POS transactions, at least for now.
Third Transaction - MTR Airport Station Manned Counter (DCC - Successful(?) Opt-Out)
Terminal Type: Citibank
Thanks to percysmith for the suggestion of getting pair of tickets to qualify for the group rate! After standing in line for quite awhile I ordered the tickets and handed over my Chase Sapphire Preferred. It was a Citibank terminal, and I noticed a tent card off to the side saying something to the effect of paying in your own currency.
The lady had already inserted the card and I quickly blurted, "Charge HKD please!!" This was the first time I have encountered DCC in mass transit. I understand hotels, department stores, restaurants (mostly upscale ones), and the occasional souvenir shop, but this was a first. I got a thermal paper signature slip with the tick boxes, so I ticked HKD and signed. I got this final receipt that doesn't contain DCC verbiage and is denominated in HKD, so I think I'm fine:
The HK$160 transaction is pending with Chase as $21.50. I used the Visa rate to calculate what the transaction should have been:
160 HKD x 0.128963 USD/HKD = 20.63 USD
it would appear that the DCC markup is 4.2%:
20.63 USD * 1.042 = 21.50 USD
In absolute terms, this is $0.87, so it's not a big problem if DCC actually happens. I will still, however, fight this on principle, but I expect Chase to issue a courtesy credit if I can get someone knowledgeable with Reason Code 76 chargebacks.
Fourth Transaction - Courtyard Hong Kong Check-in (DCC Free)
Terminal Type: Bank of China (Hong Kong)
I requested HKD to which the front desk clerk said that it would be settled upon checkout. Not wanting to mess anything up with earning Marriott Rewards points, I reluctantly handed over my Marriott Rewards Visa (Chase). I saw her key in the amount of HK$12000. So my surprise, when I checked my online account, the pending authorization hold of $1547.56 matches the Visa rate exactly:
12000 HKD x 0.128963 USD/HKD = 1547.56 USD
I wasn't hit with DCC at this hotel three years ago - I can't say the same for the Venetian Macau across the harbor - so I assumed it wasn't automatic at this hotel.
Oct 10, 2014 | 5:09 am
#1159
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
Third slip - is identical to a normal local slip I will sign, so I can guarantee that's not DCC.
Oct 10, 2014 | 5:12 am
#1160
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
I purchased a lot of MTR Airport Express tickets on MTR's website. Haven't run into DCC there...
Oct 10, 2014 | 6:36 am
#1161
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
As I said, I was surprised since I've never seen DCC offered on transportation before.
Oct 10, 2014 | 8:10 am
#1162
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
MTR AEL terminal - I think since it's DCC-enabled I think it's hard coded to hold in DCC rates. But it respects your eventual choice to be billed in HKD.
Oct 11, 2014 | 3:32 am
#1163
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 46
I got a little bit of good news regarding the DCCing of my hotel bill at the Regal HKG Airport Hotel. I wrote the front desk manager, complaining about being DCCed without my consent, especially after explicitly telling the front desk clerk NOT to charge my CC in USD, but in HKD (I never got a CC signature slip w/ the check boxes, just a hotel bill/invoice A4 printout in HKD). He apologized & stated that refunding me the $4.24 (33 HKD) DCC overcharge would be complicated, so he offered me a room upgrade & executive lounge access on my next stay there.
Oct 11, 2014 | 7:25 am
#1164
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
I got a little bit of good news regarding the DCCing of my hotel bill at the Regal HKG Airport Hotel. I wrote the front desk manager, complaining about being DCCed without my consent, especially after explicitly telling the front desk clerk NOT to charge my CC in USD, but in HKD (I never got a CC signature slip w/ the check boxes, just a hotel bill/invoice A4 printout in HKD). He apologized & stated that refunding me the $4.24 (33 HKD) DCC overcharge would be complicated, so he offered me a room upgrade & executive lounge access on my next stay there.
But I do remember someone on this forum received similar treatment before, probably in Germany?
Oct 11, 2014 | 10:30 am
#1165
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
Fellow FlyerTalk member percysmith and I ate at Greyhound Cafe tonight, and we were unable to dodge DCC. A post will follow...
Oct 11, 2014 | 10:50 am
#1166
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
After 2 hours of banter and four dishes we decided to get the bill.
I explained to the waitress in Cantonese that my friend (Majuki; should be cxua but it's not obvious from his redacted card slip) had a problem with the card charge last time and whilst we are not asking for any compensation we would like to see how the charge is made. She said she will fetch the manager.
The manager arrived shortly after and I explained the problem. He showed us to the card terminal and attempted to charge Majuki's CSP. I admit I had the better view of the terminal so I will describe what I saw.
1. Manager puts card into chip reader slot of card terminal
2. Terminal displays "Connecting" in English and Chinese and counts down from about 40
3. For about *2* seconds, the display shows "Enquiry" in English (and some Chinese characters I can't see as I was peeking beside the manager in the very cramped cashier's closet). In the centre of the bottom edge I see "Opt" but there is no button directly corresponding to the button.
4. Once it times out, the countdown continues
5. The carbon DCC slip is printed out with the tick boxes .
The manager then voids the slip. The USD amount is shown as credited.
I asked the manager to repeat once, but press cancel in (3). He duly did, the countdown contined but the result (and the void) is still the same.
Majuki then asked if there is any post-transaction input he can make. The manager confirmed no.
I then asked the manager:
"Who is the acquirer? Global Payments?"
"Not that"
"BoC"
"Not that either"
"Do you mind if I ask who it is?"
"HSBC"
I thanked the manager and presented my HSBC HK Plat Visa for payment. He voided majuki's second slip and charged mine.
I confirmed HSBC cannot be an acquirer so when an merchant says his acquirer is HSBC he meant Global Payments (confirmed here http://www.visa-asia.com/ap/hk/en_US...ingbanks.shtml) - probably HSBC handles all post-acquisition remittance to the merchants so they are not aware of Global Payments' role at all.
I also think Greyhound is not to blame in all this. The manager is profesional, apologetic for the previous DCC and co-operative even though he did not invite us to solve his DCC problem (unlike moondog's 蛇口 restaurant).
I await majuki's redacted photos of his CSP slips. I will also send a PM to both majuki and cxua.
Last edited by percysmith; Oct 11, 2014 at 11:20 am
Oct 11, 2014 | 11:36 am
#1167
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
First, thank you for the recap and explaining the situation to the manager. I wouldn't have been able to negotiate the situation without your help. I do think the manager was being accommodating, but there was really nothing that could be done, so we had the manager void both transactions.
Here are the two charge attempts and corresponding void slips:
I checked my online account, and the void charges are there too:
The DCC markup is 4.2% above the Visa rate. So our 565.00 HKD transaction was quoted with a DCC amount 75.92 USD. Using the October 11th Visa rate the, the charge should have been 72.86 USD, so the difference was 3.06 USD. We made the executive decision to have percysmith make the charge in his card denominated in HKD. I hope cxua can pursue a successful chargeback and that Chase follows through, but I have my doubts that they will with such a small difference.
Here are the two charge attempts and corresponding void slips:
I checked my online account, and the void charges are there too:
The DCC markup is 4.2% above the Visa rate. So our 565.00 HKD transaction was quoted with a DCC amount 75.92 USD. Using the October 11th Visa rate the, the charge should have been 72.86 USD, so the difference was 3.06 USD. We made the executive decision to have percysmith make the charge in his card denominated in HKD. I hope cxua can pursue a successful chargeback and that Chase follows through, but I have my doubts that they will with such a small difference.
Oct 11, 2014 | 12:05 pm
#1168
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Seat 21C on UA
Posts: 988
Some data points from HK:
Respected my DCC choice:
Marks & Spencer (All Branches)
La Rotisserie
Others that don't come to mind right now.
Did not respect my DCC choice:
Ajisan Ramen
El Taco Loco
Overall DCC is not that high in HK from my experiences. Say around 10%. Of those only a few were problems. Though I must say I was surprised at the one time I had to use a MC in Shenzhen I thought I would have to chargeback but it processed correctly.
Respected my DCC choice:
Marks & Spencer (All Branches)
La Rotisserie
Others that don't come to mind right now.
Did not respect my DCC choice:
Ajisan Ramen
El Taco Loco
Overall DCC is not that high in HK from my experiences. Say around 10%. Of those only a few were problems. Though I must say I was surprised at the one time I had to use a MC in Shenzhen I thought I would have to chargeback but it processed correctly.
Oct 11, 2014 | 12:53 pm
#1169
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
Also, can someone comment on whether or not 7/11 in HK uses DCC? Would they balk at a small credit card purchase? I've been using an Octopus card, but I'd rather charge if I know it's safe from DCC.
Oct 11, 2014 | 2:20 pm
#1170
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 46
I used my US Visa card at 7/11 several times in HK and never got DCCed. They also let me use it for small purchases w/ no problems.