United is not, at least in multiple experience I've had, charging at the gate upsells for those E+ seats. I have no status on UA and I've either been able to select those seats during OLCI, or asked at the gate by the agent.


These are aggregate numbers, so it's hard to get anything meaningful from them. If I'm not mistaken, long haul international flights have on average much higher load factors. Regardless you have to look at the entire scenario in the big picture. If over the summer period and you end up upgrading econ pax into those E+ seats that you haven't sold, you lose. Every time you go out with full plane and spill demand without passing the revenue loss into the ticket prices of those that are actually flying you lose. It can be an escalating downward revenue spiral.

But, across the Atlantic, BF is effectively priced at E+ levels. They have year-round sales at around $2000, and the current offers start at $900+ (EWR-DUB return), as long as you are willing to surrender a bit of flexibility.
Don't expect to pay less than that for BA WT+. Aside from matching the odd fare sale, you're unlikely to see any European airline selling business class seats across the pond for less than �2200. Normally it's more like �3000.

CO makes it their business to know what the customer wants. If you dont think that they do then look at the the many canges that they have done as a result of the do and other comments we have given them over the years.

CO I think to a degree has a model similiar to SWA in that it does a lot of the work inhouse or through companies it owns or works with closely. It all comes down to the dollar that we want to spend which isnt that much as we would not be on Flyertalk. Yes, CO is not risk takers to the highest degree, but you have to remember all the risks that they have taken to get to this point with the airline. Just think is Bethune and Larry hadnt come to CO and worked so hard to turn it around. We could very well be talking about how the SWA hub at IAH doesnt offer the flights that we want. In the end i think they provide a quality product that we all enjoy (it is just that we dont get to enjoy it - domestic first - as much as we would like

Don't know when you flew UA last, but they have gotten very strict as of a year or so ago. They sure are charging for those seats ifyou are non-UA elite. The only way a non-UA elite will get them for free is if E- is oversold. OLCI won't do it any more, and gate agents are not supposed to do it. And the FAs are trained to send self-upgraders back to E-.

I guess it doesn't matter what you call standard rewards, because you'll never find one on any route people would like to fly.

The downward spiral continues.

That's not true at all. I need to travel this weekend and found not one, not two, but three tickets at the standard price for the flights I wanted. Not only that, but since the flights are less than 1500 miles round trip they're only 20k miles each. Finally, although I'm a Platinum there is standard "G" availability so I'm using my daughter's miles.

I don't know about your experience, but I rarely/never see CO priced at much less than $3000, though I know that they tend to charge more for ex-EU itineraries, and we never see the BF sales. Indeed, they always seem to be among the more expensive options. As for EU airlines, BA routinely charges just over $2000 for J if you are departing from outside the UK. And that isn't taking corporate discounts into account, where my understanding is that the EU airlines (BA, in particular) are very aggressive.

Agreed. E+ would simply be a fourth product. Where is it written in stone that three products is acceptable in terms of operational simplicity but four are too complex? Especially if that fourth product can be effectively targeted on the ultra long-haul routes (777 & 787's only) in order to meet demand and make a profit for CAL.

Also, in terms of the numbers of products CO offers, you left out one more variation a la Hawaiian BF, this one the "International First Class" which is offered to the Caribbean and northern Latin America which features BF service but on domestic FC-equipped ships.

So the fact is CO tailors its product to its various markets.

An E+ on ultra long-haul and even TATL would effectively meet the demand in that market place the same way that having BF service but on a B73NG is appropriate for northern Latin America.

I guess one good thing is that there won't be any changes to the redemption amounts of mileage BusinessFirst upgrades.

Standard rewards are very difficult to obtain in advance in many travel markets. Last minute availability is nice, but many folks using miles do so planning months in advance. The fact that CO makes makes a large percenatge of its standard awards available in the final days before a flight doesn't help those who book early. Furthermore, standard rewards in TPAC/TATL J are exceptionally difficult to obtain in advance.

The fact that CO is apparently not changing the standard reward redemption mileage for Asia/S.America J awards is, frankly, an implicit reflection that these rewards are all but impossible to book.

I would think that a E+ product would be more than extra pitch. Most airlines offering E+ have slightly wider seats, more pitch, and improved meal service. CO could do the same on its 777's/787's: 2-4-2 (versus 3-3-3) with 36-37 in. pitch and, say, a Y meal on BF china. Most airlines offer E+ pax a distinct menu, separate check-in, and amenity kits, too, but if CO wanted to keep it very simple they could do what I suggested above and accomplish 80-90% of the E+ objective.

You are right that all CO sales seem to be done ex-EWR, and not a lot from Europe.
However, if you 'd like to go to EWR between "18DEC07 THROUGH 01JAN08 ON THE OUTBOUND TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR" and are prepared to depart from MXP, you may be in for a surprise.

IME, BA prices start at around �2000. The current CO sale fares are around the �1000 mark! And obviously transiting through LHR is something you don't want to do- there are reasons why BA and AZ, outside of their hubs, usually are the cheapest European long-haul carriers.

That's a fair point, but corporate contracts often are with the country's "home" airline, so it's a good % down but from a higher fare.

But you're ignoring the fact that this are still only three different types of seating offered, regardless of what they call it or the service that's provided on board. It is still fundamentally the same product offering.

I don't think E+ with just extra leg room can cut it. I think they have to offer a product differentiation on par with BA, NZ, VS etc. Having said that I don't think CO is going to offer an E+ product unless it can be operationally justified on all long haul aircraft. It is not in CO's best interest to set an expectation that they have econ plus on TATL flights, except for every market that has a 757 on it. That would a customer service nightmare particularly if you're charging a premium for the product. And since I don't think the 757 can handle E+ seating, and given that it is a significant portion of their long haul fleet, I don't see it happening in the near term.

That being said it may happen one day in the future, when the 757 is not plying the Atlantic.

In regards to UA not charging for E+, I took a flight several weeks ago and that was exactly my experience., they didn't charge. This was also true on several flights prior to that all within this year.

"...JUST the extra leg room." If you were 6'3, you'd never say "just"... but you're right about everything else...

Wt plus can be had for 600 dollars during low season.