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Old Jul 18, 2012 | 7:59 am
  #91  
 
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Originally Posted by roberino
If he was "bored" and "looking to kill some time" then clearly he was surplus to requirements at a cost that is picked up by the US taxpayer. Doesn't this trouble you?
For me ... based on only one data point, no. Traffic through an airport checkpoint doesn't proceed at a steady rate; there will be times of high-demand and times of low-demand. If TSA staffs its checkpoint for low-demand times, there will never be idle TSOs --- but there will be long checkpoint lines (at which point, the FT population will scream about the waste of their time). If TSA staffs its checkpoint for high-demand times, there will be moments when TSOs are idle (at which point, the FT population will scream about the waste of their tax dollars).

About the only thing constant is FT screaming about the TSA.
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Old Jul 18, 2012 | 8:17 am
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Originally Posted by jkhuggins
For me ... based on only one data point, no. Traffic through an airport checkpoint doesn't proceed at a steady rate; there will be times of high-demand and times of low-demand. If TSA staffs its checkpoint for low-demand times, there will never be idle TSOs --- but there will be long checkpoint lines (at which point, the FT population will scream about the waste of their time). If TSA staffs its checkpoint for high-demand times, there will be moments when TSOs are idle (at which point, the FT population will scream about the waste of their tax dollars).

About the only thing constant is FT screaming about the TSA.
A fair point in general, but a single TSO isn't going to be enough to open a third checkpoint on his own, and if they had enough staff to have a third checkpoint open then why wasn't it open already?
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Old Jul 18, 2012 | 8:33 am
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Originally Posted by roberino
A fair point in general, but a single TSO isn't going to be enough to open a third checkpoint on his own, and if they had enough staff to have a third checkpoint open then why wasn't it open already?
Having one or two extra bodies around the checkpoint is usually a good thing. Stuff happens that having an extra body around would make easier to handle. A passenger requests/requires a pat-down screening, taking another person away from the "normal" flow of the checkpoint. Another passenger requires assistance in proceeding through the checkpoint (e.g. physical disability). A passenger reports a lost item, requiring a trip back to the office to check the lost-and-found repository. And that's just the "nice" examples.
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Old Jul 18, 2012 | 9:06 am
  #94  
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Originally Posted by jkhuggins
For me ... based on only one data point, no. Traffic through an airport checkpoint doesn't proceed at a steady rate; there will be times of high-demand and times of low-demand. If TSA staffs its checkpoint for low-demand times, there will never be idle TSOs --- but there will be long checkpoint lines (at which point, the FT population will scream about the waste of their time). If TSA staffs its checkpoint for high-demand times, there will be moments when TSOs are idle (at which point, the FT population will scream about the waste of their tax dollars).

About the only thing constant is FT screaming about the TSA.
Very true, and this applies in any place with a fluctuating 'customer' base - McDonald's, bank drive-through lanes, movie theaters, DMV...

Somehow the rest of the world seems to have mastered this problem at airport checkpoints. I have honestly simply never ever seen the 'thousands standing around' security folks at any non-US airport. There are a fraction of the number of people and at any given time, they really all do seem to have a purpose. Of course, I haven't witnessed challenging positions like 'WTMD blocker' or 'walk around and bark TSO' or 'stand around waiting to do a grope TSO' or 'stand around prepared to gawk if anything interesting happens' or 'xray belt input rearranger' or 'groper monitor'.

(Note: sadly, the same appropriate staffing doesn't seem to extend to customs/immigration, either here or outside the US).
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Old Jul 18, 2012 | 9:57 am
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Originally Posted by medic51vrf
You're showing your ignorance and personal biases (as you have in other threads) Doc. I'm a US citizen with a degree in criminal justice issued by an American institution and I'm a Paramedic Practitioner (among other things) so I don't drive ambulances. If anything I work in the back of them.
My mistake from seeing your pics of "your" dirty ambulance in Australia, Tom.
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Old Jul 18, 2012 | 10:26 am
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Originally Posted by chollie
The 'administrative fines' can run as high as $11k, IIRC. They are administered by TSA - based on statements made about John Tyner ("don't touch my junk"), the fines can be levied weeks or months after the incident in question (probably just after any relevant tapes have been 'lost'). I believe there may be a single appeals opportunity, but not in a court of law.

No idea what happens if you don't pay the fine (like when an unpaid library fine gets turned over to LEOs) or if being fined automatically earns you a spot on the 'watch list'.

.


OK, here's the scoop. It's not a "fine" and the effects of non-payment are totally different than if it were. It is a "civil penalty" and the TSA has absolutely no enforcement powers with respect to the fine. No collection efforts, no contempt powers. It is in no way illegal to ignore the assessment. If the goon squad wants to get serious about it, they have to find a US Attorney in the right jurisdiction who will agree to drop everything else and file a civil lawsuit to collect the penalty. There are a lot of factors militating against such a course of action.First, Us Attorneys have a lot on their plates. They are responsible for all federal criminal cases in their district, including most post-conviction relief cases, as well as defending all civil cases in their district which might be filed against any federal department, office, or officer, They also provide legal support to all federal LEOs in their district. Finally, as appointed officials, they are very, very political and always have an eye to future office. Rudy Guliani, as a former USA for the Southern District of NY, comes immediately to mind. Being known for being in the back pocket of the second, for now, most despised agency in the government is not politically expedient. I would hazard a guess that US Attorneys are much more experienced, and inclined, to prosecute TSA criminals than to collect their civil penalties.
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Old Jul 18, 2012 | 10:27 am
  #97  
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Originally Posted by jkhuggins
Traffic through an airport checkpoint doesn't proceed at a steady rate; there will be times of high-demand and times of low-demand. If TSA staffs its checkpoint for low-demand times, there will never be idle TSOs --- but there will be long checkpoint lines (at which point, the FT population will scream about the waste of their time). If TSA staffs its checkpoint for high-demand times, there will be moments when TSOs are idle (at which point, the FT population will scream about the waste of their tax dollars).
There is an entire branch of mathematics devoted to queuing theory and the optimization of queue management. The data necessary to drive optimization algorithms for checkpoint setup and staffing is certainly available to the TSA. Whether or not they have anybody in that organization that can do something with it is up for speculation.

I still vividly remember a class in queuing theory that I took years ago as an undergrad in engineering school. Fascinating stuff but it made my head hurt then (and now!).
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Old Jul 18, 2012 | 1:42 pm
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Originally Posted by El Cochinito
There is an entire branch of mathematics devoted to queuing theory and the optimization of queue management. The data necessary to drive optimization algorithms for checkpoint setup and staffing is certainly available to the TSA. Whether or not they have anybody in that organization that can do something with it is up for speculation.

I still vividly remember a class in queuing theory that I took years ago as an undergrad in engineering school. Fascinating stuff but it made my head hurt then (and now!).
The thing about queueing theory is this: queuing theory works to optimize throughput versus cost in the aggregate. At any single point in time, an observer might see a long line, or an empty line. Over time, however, queueing theory tries to minimize both of those items versus any other unmanaged strategy.

Which is why it's terribly hard to respond to a single datapoint, like the one offered by the OP.
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Old Jul 19, 2012 | 5:31 am
  #99  
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Originally Posted by saulblum
The entire premise of SPOT and BDOs hinges on the assumption that everyone flying is in a good mood: that they're embarking on their Disney World vacation or honeymoon or are about to seal a business deal or are going to their son's wedding.

Guess what? Some passengers are flying to funerals; others are flying to visit sick relatives who may have days left to live.

And the last thing those passengers need is to be judged harshly, and potentially face extra screening, because they did not sufficiently satisfy a BDO that their jitters are not a precursor to blowing up a plane.
Remember that the entire premise of behavior detection is junk science of the worst kind, so it is only right that it would find a home at TSA.

Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much
One has to assume that the motivation behind any conversation with anyone wearing a TSA badge is to interrogate you. I, too, wish is wasn't this way. But, the TSA did it to themselves, and it's up to us to remind the "nice people" that we are treating them this way because of their agency's policies and because of their choice of employer.
^^ I refuse to enage any TSA employee with conversation other than what is necessary for me to get past their foolishness and go on my way.

Last edited by halls120; Jul 24, 2012 at 7:58 pm Reason: personal attacks
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Old Jul 19, 2012 | 6:40 am
  #100  
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Originally Posted by InkUnderNails
IMO, no answer is better than a wrong one. I do not make small talk at the CP. From the TDC to final clearance, I consider it the same as a criminal investigation. They are not there to make me happy or make it easier. The are there to find reasons to impede my progress. I try to not give them any. Now some here will say staying silent is evidence that I may be suspect. Think about that. By not communicating one becomes a suspect. Not probable cause or suspicious action, but by what one chooses to not do.

To me, that is scary.
I completely agree. I do not respond to entreaties, no matter how socially "right" or trivial, from any person in the checkpoint who is with the TSA or might be with the TSA. I remain silent to all questions, directives, hassling, etc. Only after I opt out do I respond to questions about the groping procedure; and this is where I then do my pushback as needed (especially referring to the "resistance" in medically correct terms and so on).

This is an indoctrination effort underway on the travelling public. To me, it's no different from "Geben Sie mir Ihre Reisepapiere!"
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Old Jul 22, 2012 | 10:33 pm
  #101  
 
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Originally Posted by PTravel
First of all, "innocent until proven guilty," is a misstatement of the legal standard, which is, "the state bears the burden of proving guilt." It does not mean someone is innocent until proven guilty, but that, before they can be deprived of life, liberty or property in the context of a criminal action, the state must meet its burden of proof.

TSA is not on trial. TSA is a government agency that, time and again, has demonstrated incompetence, corruption, scientific and technolgoical ignorance, and contempt for the Constitution of the United States. TSA has wasted billions of dollars and contributed virtually nothing to the safety of commercial aviation. The three known terrorist attacks against US aviation since 9/11 were not detected, much less contravened, by TSA.

So, please -- spare me, "innocent until proven guilty." As I said, TSA is not on trial.
Oh I understand the concepts, quite well I might add.

But please feel free to point that out to your fellow posters when they make like remarks concerning the TSA's screening. Or do you feel that you cannot cite the law in such instances because of your personal bias?
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Old Jul 22, 2012 | 11:08 pm
  #102  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Oh I understand the concepts, quite well I might add.

But please feel free to point that out to your fellow posters when they make like remarks concerning the TSA's screening.
I usually do.

Or do you feel that you cannot cite the law in such instances because of your personal bias?
"Personal bias"? Care to hazard a guess as to why I have a bias against TSA? Hint: it's in my post that you quoted.
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Old Jul 23, 2012 | 7:45 pm
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Originally Posted by El Cochinito
There is an entire branch of mathematics devoted to queuing theory and the optimization of queue management.
Indeed there is. In fact, the person I shared an office with at NYU was doing her PhD thesis on queuing theory as it applied to a computer interconnection network.

The data necessary to drive optimization algorithms for checkpoint setup and staffing is certainly available to the TSA. ... I still vividly remember a class in queuing theory that I took years ago as an undergrad in engineering school. Fascinating stuff but it made my head hurt then (and now!).
As you may remember from that class, the behavior of a queue is heavily dependent on the distribution of arrival times. If you make reasonably-simple probabalistic models of those times, the math isn't that hard, but any simple models won't reflect reality. The closer the model reflects reality, the more complex the math. And it's made even more complicated by the non-uniform departure rate.
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Old Jul 23, 2012 | 7:55 pm
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Originally Posted by RichardKenner
Indeed there is. In fact, the person I shared an office with at NYU was doing her PhD thesis on queuing theory as it applied to a computer interconnection network.


As you may remember from that class, the behavior of a queue is heavily dependent on the distribution of arrival times. If you make reasonably-simple probabalistic models of those times, the math isn't that hard, but any simple models won't reflect reality. The closer the model reflects reality, the more complex the math. And it's made even more complicated by the non-uniform departure rate.
More important with the CP, is that the queue varies based on the variability of the time to get through the queue. As passenger times begin to vary widely, particularly if there are outliers, like me and my NEXUS card at the TDC, that create statistical anomalies that make the math much more difficult. Add to that the tendency of all variability on the queue due to TSA inconsistency to move the time in queue up without corresponding variability down, as things get busier, the time per person likely increasws.
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Old Jul 23, 2012 | 8:38 pm
  #105  
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Originally Posted by RichardKenner
As you may remember from that class, the behavior of a queue is heavily dependent on the distribution of arrival times. If you make reasonably-simple probabalistic models of those times, the math isn't that hard, but any simple models won't reflect reality. The closer the model reflects reality, the more complex the math. And it's made even more complicated by the non-uniform departure rate.
Originally Posted by InkUnderNails
More important with the CP, is that the queue varies based on the variability of the time to get through the queue. As passenger times begin to vary widely, particularly if there are outliers, like me and my NEXUS card at the TDC, that create statistical anomalies that make the math much more difficult. Add to that the tendency of all variability on the queue due to TSA inconsistency to move the time in queue up without corresponding variability down, as things get busier, the time per person likely increasws.
You do remember that you're dealing with an organization that - at the top level - decided that 3.4 (oz) was close enough to 3 (oz) that they couldn't be bothered to update the signs and the PA announcements, right? HQ staff who, at goalie points out regularly, can't add up how many items they found at checkpoints in a given week? Something tells me that math isn't their strong point.
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