chollie

OTOH, a poster who allegedly has inside knowledge that non-TSA folks don't possess has pointed out earlier in this thread that the smoke grenade confiscated, er, surrendered at the NC airport "contained parts that were designed specifically as a detonator" and he certainly had the training and experience necessary to put these items together to produce a <b-world>.

We have no way of knowing what his intentions really were at this point, but I'm sure TSA will spin this as 'we admonished Mr. Atwater and defused the situation before allowing him to continue his travels'.

Boggie Dog

I heard just a quick blurb on the radio this morning that the feds were talking about releasing Atwater to the military and without charges. Have not heard or read any follow up on this to confirm. If they did I'm sure some UCMJ action would be waiting.

ND Sol

Smoke grenades contain "parts that were designed specifically as a detonator", which sounds more nefarious. Having made that statement, it is not completely technically true.

The two types of fuses used in U.S. hand grenades are detonating and igniting. Both function in the same manner; the difference is how they activate the filler substance. The detonating fuse is used in fragmentation grenades and their practice counterparts. Detonating fuses explode within the grenade body. Igniting fuses are used in chemical grenades, which would include smoke grenades. They burn at high temperatures and ignite the chemical filler. As such, to say there are "parts that were designed specifically as a detonator" would not be true since it is a igniting fuse and not a detonating one.

Since C4 doesn't explode on the basis of temperature, but on the basis of an explosive detonator, I question how the components of a smoke grenade could be used to detonate C4. But then again, I was never in Special Forces and didn't have that type of specialized training (though I did teach at the US Army Ordnance School, but not in this area).

For the life of me, I still can't come up with a scenario where a terrorist would pass a smoke grenade through a screening checkpoint and then disassemble it to get to the igniting fuse. That's like trying to sneak a battle tank through and then remove the tank's machine gun for use in your nefarious plot. I would think that the tank would attract a bit more attention than just its machine gun.

chollie

I can't help but compare the way he appears to have been treated with the way Shoshana Hebshi and two other men unknown to her were treated at DTW.

I wonder if Atwater was also strip-searched. Certainly everyone surrounding this has been very careful not to use the 'T' word.

cestmoi123

Was he actually trying to blow up the plane? Extremely unlikely, particularly given he had apparently already taken a flight with the C4 in his bag.

That being said, it seems to me that plastic explosives fall into the category of things that should DEFINITELY not be allowed onto planes.

Liquids, sure (absent actual evidence that they are explosives). Knives, go for it. Guns, nope. Explosives, definitely not.

ND Sol

Not only was your inside information late to the party, but perhaps it wasn't even correct:

So now it is double the amount. I thought this statement was illuminating:

Even your comment that, "Several weeks earlier this individual was the subject of another EIR with TSA." is factually incorrect as it was only one week between the incidents, which makes it even more likely that he had 5 pounds of C4 on the outbound.

WillCAD

A lot of people have made a big issue out of the fact that C4 won't explode without an explosive detonator, it just burns. It burns, in fact, hot enough and long enough to cook with it.

Okay, that makes it an incendiary, right?

WEI: Weapons, Explosives, Incendiaries. All are prohibited from the plane. All are part of TSA's primary search mandate.

I don't care if this guy was simply trying to carry some funputty around to create a humorous big boom for his friends back home, or if he was so incredibly stupid that he "forgot" that he had five pounds of high explosive material and a smoke grenade in his bag (he can't feel the weight of the 5 pounds of C4 or feel the grenade rolling around when he picks up the empty bag from his garage? Was he IN the bag, as it were?). I don't care if he had "evil intent" or was considering a terrorist action, or not - he brought explosive/incendiary materials onto a plane, which is illegal, and he should be held accountable for it.

He says he forgot those materials were in his bag. That is dangerous, too, because he would not treat the bag with the proper respect that a bag containing explosives, incendiaries, and weapons demands. I'm not worried about accidental detonation, but I am worried about loss or theft in transit - which would have put those materials into the hands of criminals.

He also removed weapons materials from a US Army base at some point, without authorization, and should be prosecuted for that by the Army.

TSA has also demonstrated some incompetence or carelessness here, as well, by not detecting the explosives on his outbound trip from NC to TX, even after detecting the smoker grenade. They've had people detained for having too much money, for having sequential checks, for looking scary; they've confiscated cupcakes and nail files; they've emptied bags and done complete secondary searches for books and magazines; they've rifled through personal papers and read them in a search for mythical "sheet explosives"; yet they completely missed five pounds of C4 in a carry-on bag.

Kudos TSA.

MrsGraupel

^ Exactly! (Off topic, I did at least get a reply from Sen Sherrod Brown's office saying they were looking into the Hebshi matter - more than I can say for Sen Portman.)

Letitride3c

+1 on the above. I almost spill my hot coffee this morning reading the latest spinning news on this ....

Five, read that, say again, 5 POUNDS of extra "inert" putty weight in a backpack/carryon - and not FEEL a thing & ask, why is it so heavy? Especially when I'm sure he packed other gears or non-duty related items in that pouch/bag/pack or what not when he traveled with his family from/to once he returned from abroad - regardless of whether he was on a chartered military flight or regular commercial, thru or bypass TSA checkpoint after he touched home soil then (and, did he get WAIVED thru CBP .... )

If only a tiny, tiny fraction or percentage of returning service members forget, like him (many with only basic training & not specialized skills or knowledge) - we are in a whole lot of trouble (I'm saddened to read about another elite specialist, OFF-TOPIC: a 22 years old just graduated Navy Seals shot himself in the head - inside his home - showing off his (service? or, personal) sidearm to a women met at a local bar and now on life support - plain STUPIDITY, whatever happened to basic gun safety) ahead of all the troops "coming" home with the war on terror being scaled back.

TSA's functions, continue to be, are just smoke & mirror in theatrics only. Good at stopping fruitcakes, snow globes, water bottles, money, OTC drugs, and in a few cases - "forgotten" loaded guns, but, 2 sticks of C-4's that is harmless by itself unless it's lost/stolen/surrendered or fallen into the wrong hands ....

In this instance, it was in the "custody" of a trained & explosive expert who knew how to handle it properly - afterall, he flew half way around the world with it, he wasn't a threat & not a terrorist.


"Is it safe?" - borrowing the famous quote from the "Marathon Man"

loops

Perhaps he just wanted a hot in-flight meal?

I dunno if C-4 in of itself (sans blasting caps, etal) fits the strict definition of incendiary. Highly flammable with the application of a flame, yes, but so is a lot of stuff like paper and natural fiber and alcohol, yet we are allowed to drink alcohol and wear regular clothes and so forth. Good thing we have a first amendment or we might have problems carrying brochures!


Perhaps, or a lost bag could simply end up in lost and found, unclaimed perhaps.

TSORon

Having personally been the subject of one of those reunions I fully understand.

He was already in the country, had been for some time, when the C4 was discovered in his bag. He was passing from the non-sterile area (public area) into the sterile area through the TSA checkpoint when the substance was found. Plenty of military bases in Texas, it is very likely he never went through a TSA checkpoint prior to the day in question. I assume that is where you were headed, but it was not very clear.

Interesting opinion. They may be, they may not be. We don’t have all the information yet, and it’s likely that we will never get it.

My “home” was in California, yet I was stationed in Kansas, which is where my garage was. Plenty of military bases in Texas he could have been stationed at, where he could have lived, and where he might have had a garage. Yet home was NC. Again, we don’t have all the information. Was the C4 in his bag initially, when the smoke grenade was discovered? Unlikely. Very unlikely, yet still vaguely within the realm of possibility.

I don’t believe he was trying to smuggle anything. Period. Just poor judgment, that’s all. Nothing “ominous (or) nefarious” about it. And yes, the spoon/detonator assembly on a smoke grenade can be removed with simple tools likely found in every garage in the country, or without tools.

Proof? I won’t hold my breath waiting for it.

Which is more likely, a politician who was not there, has no direct knowledge of the incident, misstating the amount, or an official government publication? Late? No, the discussion is ongoing.

gnorwost2

Posting from work again, Ron?

TSORon

Nah, local resturaunt. Aint Wi-Fi great?

chollie

Wow! The plot thickens! This latest possible scenario - wow!

So we have a guy who has been closer to the action,, the 'front lines', defending this country, than most of the men and women in blue at the checkpoints. For those cynics among us, maybe he never left the base and was 'just' a trainer or desk jockey, but even the bases in Afghanistan are more dangerous than your average airport checkpoint.

TSA in Fayetteville catches him with a detonator cleverly disguised as a smoke grenade. They ask him to surrender the grenade, he does, they admonish him and he goes on his way. Of course, after they take, sorry,he surrenders the grenade, they re-scan his bag - and possibly test it for traces of something nasty. Nothing.

During the following week, while he's in Texas, he visits one of the many military bases there - Ft. Hood, perhaps. He visits a location on base where C4 is kept and acquires a few pounds of the stuff. Or maybe he just had it in a 'garage' somewhere in Texas. Packs it in his bag and heads for the airport to go home, little dreaming that TSA is still on their toes and he won't get through the checkpoint with it.

Curiously, although there have been news clips showing the concern Fayetteville flyers have, no one at TSA or Fayetteville airport has come forward to assure the public that nothing was missed at the location. They've had a week to review cameras, interview the TSOs, ensure that there's no way the nasty stuff was in his bags when he cleared Fayetteville.

I guess anything's possible, but I suspect even Hollywood would raise an eyebrow at this scenario.

Wally Bird

Thanks for the chuckle, Ron.

However, you are probably correct in that we'll never know. (ex-) Sgt Atwater isn't saying which is wise considering the ****storm which awaits him; courts martial aren't subject to FOIA and the TSA will cower behind SSI or "national security" as usual.