WW "airlines to go bust"

Old Sep 15, 2020, 4:38 am
  #1366  
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Originally Posted by SonTech
They still have to abide by the law and if they are not keeping customer cash seperate then more fool them and they deserve toing go bust. Plently of other airlines refund many more customers have managed to follow the law.
I don't disagree but my point was simply that if a law firm has determined that a company simply doesn't have the cash to pay the alleged damages, or other creditors have priority such that there would be nothing left by the time it got down to the level of customer refunds, they won't bother to spend the money and effort to go after it for what is owed.

Sure they might get a judgment that they should be refunded, but that by itself won't pay the legal fees.
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Old Sep 15, 2020, 4:45 am
  #1367  
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Originally Posted by Bear96
I don't disagree but my point was simply that if a law firm has determined that a company simply doesn't have the cash to pay the alleged damages, or other creditors have priority such that there would be nothing left by the time it got down to the level of customer refunds, they won't bother to spend the money and effort to go after it for what is owed.

Sure they might get a judgment that they should be refunded, but that by itself won't pay the legal fees.
If that were true and VS really are in such dire straits that they are unable to cover current refunds then they are effectively insolvent. Therefore the advice to anyone waiting for refunds would be immediate chargebacks and section 75 claims.
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Old Sep 15, 2020, 5:06 am
  #1368  
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Originally Posted by KARFA
If that were true and VS really are in such dire straits that they are unable to cover current refunds then they are effectively insolvent.
Yes, that is what I am saying - if they cannot cover refunds owed AND what they need to keep operating, they are technically insolvent. Whether they are at that point I have no idea. I have read things on "the internet" (so take that with a grain of salt) arguing that they are close to being effectively insolvent which is the only reason I commented here. (Here is an example from the BBC.)

Does anyone know, does VS have the funds to cover all refunds due and keep operating? Remember airlines cannot be down to zero cash to keep operating - they need to have a certain amount of cash cushion on hand. I am sure VS management has a cash-on-hand figure in mind below which would likely trigger administration. (Plus remember, as has been discussed upthread, they already have filed a form of bankruptcy protection in the U.S. to get on with whatever they will have to do in the U.K.) And remember that customers claiming refunds are unsecured creditors - at or near the bottom of those who will see any of what they claim they are owed.

If VS indeed has the money to pay the claims and keep operating, then why hasn't litigation commenced?
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Old Sep 15, 2020, 11:17 am
  #1369  
 
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Originally Posted by Bear96
Yes, that is what I am saying - if they cannot cover refunds owed AND what they need to keep operating, they are technically insolvent. Whether they are at that point I have no idea. I have read things on "the internet" (so take that with a grain of salt) arguing that they are close to being effectively insolvent which is the only reason I commented here. (Here is an example from the BBC.)

Does anyone know, does VS have the funds to cover all refunds due and keep operating? Remember airlines cannot be down to zero cash to keep operating - they need to have a certain amount of cash cushion on hand. I am sure VS management has a cash-on-hand figure in mind below which would likely trigger administration. (Plus remember, as has been discussed upthread, they already have filed a form of bankruptcy protection in the U.S. to get on with whatever they will have to do in the U.K.) And remember that customers claiming refunds are unsecured creditors - at or near the bottom of those who will see any of what they claim they are owed.

If VS indeed has the money to pay the claims and keep operating, then why hasn't litigation commenced?
They recently just agreed terms to inject some new money and give some suppliers a haircut / adjust repayment terms. I wouldn't say it's a lot, but it'll maybe allow them to continue trading for the next few months. Their big issue is that their forecast probably expected a recovery in demand by the end of the year. If that doesn't materialise, then they will indeed be in trouble
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Old Sep 15, 2020, 1:14 pm
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Originally Posted by jonas123
They recently just agreed terms to inject some new money and give some suppliers a haircut / adjust repayment terms. I wouldn't say it's a lot, but it'll maybe allow them to continue trading for the next few months. Their big issue is that their forecast probably expected a recovery in demand by the end of the year. If that doesn't materialise, then they will indeed be in trouble
I did read somewhere that Virgin owe £350 million in refunds, bot sure how true that figure is though, which is just under the amount of actual cash injection they recently got.

I currently tell people to use the money claims route after the 7/14 day period as if they don't pay up you can escalate your claim to the high court and the sheriff's can then seize goods including aircraft to get your money. Everyone I know who does this gets paid out pretty quick as Virgin would not want it to go to court as they would lose.

Last edited by SonTech; Sep 15, 2020 at 1:39 pm
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Old Oct 6, 2020, 7:15 am
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Final nail in the coffin for DY?



Wizz Air starts domestic routes in Norway with flights to Tromsø for €18
With four flights per day between Oslo and Tromsø, the low-fare airline offers the cheapest tickets
seen to a destination north of the Arctic Circle.
From November 5th, Wizz Air opens routes from Oslo Gardermoen to Bergen, Trondheim and Tromsø.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29...mestic-market/
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Old Oct 6, 2020, 8:17 am
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To add to DY’s misery, a Norwegian investor announced he’s launching a new carrier come March subject to securing finance. He is one of the Braathen brothers (of Braathens, the carrier gobbled up by SAS almost twenty years ago), and has assembled a team of mostly ex-DY executives. That will bring he number of carriers on Norwegian domestic routes to five, plus some niche carriers like DAT and Air Leap. We do fly a lot, but seriously?

Source: https://e24.no/naeringsliv/i/LnA551/...rsk-flyselskap (google translate should work)
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Old Oct 9, 2020, 10:30 am
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Being reported today:

Oct 9 (Reuters) - Norwegian Air is considering shutting its base at Gatwick Airport, a spokesman said on Friday, as the struggling budget airline steps up its cost-cutting drive to survive the industry's worst crisis.
I wonder if this will impact BA’s decisions for LGW, especially for LGW-JFK.
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Old Oct 9, 2020, 11:21 am
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(This story corrects headline and first paragraph to show airline considering Gatwick lay-offs, not closing hub)
https://www.reuters.com/article/heal...-idUKL8N2H049P
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Old Oct 9, 2020, 11:57 am
  #1375  
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Where is that happy little BA scaremongers elf BApilotinsider, I do miss him! 🤡
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Old Oct 19, 2020, 5:24 am
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And come back?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54596915

"The collapsed regional airline Flybe could restart operations as soon as next year, after a former shareholder stepped in to buy its remaining assets.The airline plans to "start off smaller than before", its new owner Thyme Opco said, without giving further details."
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Old Oct 20, 2020, 2:03 pm
  #1377  
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Think they really need to change the brand. Flybe had become well and truly toxic long before its demise. Perhaps a return to BEA? Or British European at least?
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Old Oct 21, 2020, 1:28 am
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BBC reporting Cathay Dragon closing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54625997
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Old Oct 21, 2020, 2:06 am
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Originally Posted by Yellowbelly
BBC reporting Cathay Dragon closing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54625997
Bad news and another sign of how bad the industry is. I expect cutting a subsidiary helps reduce the operational complexity we hear BA mention. I understood that Dragon had a stronger brand in China and there were some historic sensitivities around the extent of CX's coverage in China, but can see those sensitivities will have gone/reduced in light of recent developments.

Also means we will see more CX here in DAC.
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Old Oct 21, 2020, 3:51 am
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Originally Posted by Dan72
I understood that Dragon had a stronger brand in China and there were some historic sensitivities around the extent of CX's coverage in China, but can see those sensitivities will have gone/reduced in light of recent developments.

Also means we will see more CX here in DAC.
Was that the reason they kept the Dragon brand? I know there was plenty of history with Dragonair, but it never made sense to me why they kept separate branding. I usually flew HKG-PVG and most of the flights were branded as Dragon with a handful as mainline CX, but it always seemed a bit pointless to have the separate brands on a service that was largely interchangeable.
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