enviroian

they can always bring these back 🤣

MiamiAirport Formerly NY George

My hunch is that if business travel remains in the dump for much longer the US3 will target (even more) the leisure flyer that is willing to pay more but not a king's ransom to get out of coach. The leisure flyer that will be impressed with a big seat, free booze and some free high school cafeteria food. Also, the leisure flyer that might have a cc that will get them into the AC or be willing to spring for the $59 day pay. Where they will get a nicer seat than at the gate, free booze and free high school cafeteria food.

GrumpyYoungMan

I'd be happy with high school cafeteria food in the AC, but it hasn't made it to that level yet.

Herb687

Why don't they target high end leisure travelers as well as business travelers by offering a better first class product worth paying for?

I'm fine with AA monetizing F. I'd be even better with FCM if it was more expensive but worth it. AA should take out a row of F seats on 321s and 738s, go to a 12-seat F cabin at something like 42" (minimum) pitch, bring back decent food, and make paying for first the primary means of occupying a seat in F.

Anyone remember VX F? That was a product that was well worth the cost.

There's got to be a giant market positioned well below NetJets/Wheels Up/ad-hoc charter and well above current US airline offerings.

radonc1

You could do this if AA took away the big reason for cutting back on F amenities....free upgrades

(Flame retardant suit is donned)

If F was limited to purchase only (whether by cash, miles or stickers/upgrade instruments), then you could price in all the extra "sweeteners" that come with the class....food, soft product, club admission.

European airlines have no free upgrades, you pay for what you get (and I know that EuroBusiness is not the same thing as US F). The old argument that frequent flyers "pay" for their upgrades by their purchase of tickets and flights just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. F passengers should be treated better than business Y passengers because they pay real money for the actual trip that they are taking .This is not the case with Mr/Mrs ExPlat on a cheap Y fare who got upgraded because they spent $12K last year at AA. For all AA knows, these elites would have spent the same amount even if AA had given them nothing more a plane ride to the destination they paid for.

One can award elites other benefits. First to board or lounge access or extra AA miles.

But get rid of the upgrades and make F the premium product it is suppose to be.

(And I know that all the elites are going to come after me. This is the problem with our system. It develops "elitism". We think that we are better than the ordinary passenger. But we are not. We just feel more entitled

Herb687

Works for me. Though my suggestion of reducing F cabin size in order to offer much more generous legroom and support higher pricing to offset the better amenities that will come with a much improved F product would ultimately get us to nearly the same place - since there probably aren't too many domestic routes that support more than 12 passengers per flight who are willing to pay for premium First.

Heck go to an 8-seat F cabin with the VX 50" near sleeper seat pitch if that's what it takes...

And make Main Cabin Extra better at the same time. It's a ridiculous JOKE that AA MCE is basically the same awful pitch that regular Y was 10 years ago.

redtop43

I know nothing about the economics of operating an aircraft. I do know that the 3-cabin (J/W/Y) birds offer a product worth paying for. I don't care much if I get $20 sparkling wine or $50 champagne in F. I know that for several years I've been happily paying pre-COVID F fares to ride the A332 Envoy Suites. Admittedly it wasn't all that expensive, $615 PHL-LAX-LAS (obviously A332 only on the transcon) although it was $1274 for just PHL-LAX. (Fortunately I didn't have to use HCT since yes, I was actually going to Sin City.)

I'd think that the cost of operating an aircraft works out to a certain amount per pax and a certain amount per square foot of floor space, spreading the fuel cost and the capital cost by area. It obviously costs more per mile to fly 5000 miles than 2500 because for the first 2500 miles of a 5000-mile flight you're carrying all the fuel you're going to burn on the second half of the trip.

If there is a "giant market positioned well below Netjets and well above current US airline offerings, it would be that. It's clearly not impossible to fly the 3-cabin widebodies on domestic long-haul routes, and W with free drinks should be a perfectly acceptable product for free elite upgrades. In most cases, AA prices 3-cabin J as domestic F and W as MCE. The idea seems to work for the A321T's, although that pricing is a bit above what I think most people would pay. Certainly not $3K+ for F. Maybe I'm just spoiled.

lunchtime

I don't agree at all. Clients don't want site visits and alot of people will be doing a few days a week from home or WFH for a while so it wont be so easy. That's very old thinking. My company has sent much larger gifts to clients then we ever would have been allowed to do because they are saving so much on on travel. No shock people really like gift cards alot and gift baskets. Client retention is the highest ever with more gifts and no person to person visits. Sales like everything else has evolved with technology. I personally have saved a ton of time and will only do price quotes thru email, phone call, or skype. Ive saved a huge amount of time, now way im ever going back. The old system was like buying a car at a dealership vs buying something on amazon. Things are not going back for sales. Maybe a few industries and some huge sales like buying an airplane fleet etc but the vast majority will never go back. Aviation will certainly be hit hard by less business travel

MiamiAirport Formerly NY George

Number one business travelers don't pay for their fares and companies over the years (with the help of technology) have been increasingly more like leisure travelers. In other words book the cheapest option within reason. The days of the "businessman specials" (remember those ads) are gone.

Upgrades were a way of keeping the business traveler or the corporate travel manager hooked. If you fly our airline on a very regular basis we will give you a nice freebie. Unfortunately for the airlines over time the cost benefit analysis wasn't there but it would have been suicide for one airline to do away with the upgrade game or at least significantly restrict it. Certainly the change to EQDs and 12 month rolling spend (or fare class for other airlines) was one major way airlines changed to the program to more efficiently align rewards with profitability. Back in the days of first come first serve I as a $5-$6K a year EXP I got upgraded before someone that may have spent over $50K a year.

Now some level of business travel, and we really don't know how much, is going away for good leaving airlines with an F cabin to fill. And they've determined through extensive data mining if they make the product "affordable" there will be demand. And that demand for the price isn't expecting full hot meals, pre departure drinks and blankets and pillows. I'm certainly not if I spend an extra $100-$200 to upfare.

olouie

I certainly hope AA does. I’m down from 250k per year to less than 50k. And if I lose EXP then I will just go free agent as west coast losses at LAX mean flying to DFW anytime I need to go to Asia. Not ideal. And AS joining OW makes it a new viable choice.

mosfet

Keeping an eye on this question for sure. Only taken a few flights in the last 12 months, all Delta as AA didn't have any options direct that suited my travel plans.

My conundrum is I have a trip to NZ/AU in August (NZ Citizen). Outbound I need to confirm flights in the next 2-3 weeks to confirm GOVT mandated quarentine space and they essentially only allow you to fly ANZ, SQ, EK and QR (atleast those are the only options from NY/US). QR is prohibitally expensive in J. Coming back from Sydney could do the AA flight but currently looking at $1.4k in Y, $2.6 Y+ and $5.5k in J none of which are that appealing as I'm out of SWU's and currently have a J EK award home with AS miles.

Also hoping to sneak a JFK-LHR and JFK - LAX trip this year. Even if those where in J I sitll fall far short of hitting PP or EXP.

Alas, maybe it is free agent time as I don't care about domestic upgrades all that much!

boerne

Hosting friends from LA this weekend. Both P Pro FF with AA 90% business travel. They are definitely going free agent now. They just booked 5 ppl in J, Delta LAX to AMS for August and if it doesn't go they have a year to fly it with Delta. The legacy folks should be rethinking loyalty post pandemic. And stop to think about it. A lot of TATL and TPAC seats in J were bulk cruise fare, and the cruises are still not going.

enviroian

Good for them. However people that can afford 5 transatlantic J tickets really don't need to be concerned about any airline's FFP in the first place.

Adelphos

A lot of people saying they "will go free agent if my airline doesn't do X." Well if none of the airlines do X (and I would bet none of the major US airlines just extend status for a another yet), then the "free agents" will just reallocate themselves among the major US airlines.

747-800i

I think you want to look to asian airlines as your example. Eurobiz is a disaster. You pay astronomical fares for a coach seat with no legroom and a blocked middle + a tray of slop. Give me the exit row. At least on asian airlines it's often a widebody with a proper seat and a real meal.