scubadu

I'd assume that by any definition of "fortress hub" that someone chooses to adopt, DFW would fit said definition. If it did not, then I have no idea what airport would fit a definition of fortress hub...

Regards

fly747first

BOM? Except none of the Indian airlines are big enough compared to AA/DL/UA

boerne

AUS to LAX outbound last week returning today. FA announced full on all flights. Asked for volunteers LAX to DFW. Weird. Also, concerning safety they talk the talk but do not walk the walk. Based upon my 4 flight observations, I don’t think folks should trust them that they “clean” the plane. They do not insist on proper mask protocols while boarding. 13 Y passengers boarding had nose uncovered. Lady next to us in F had her mask off for 1.5 hours but only ate and drank for 15 minutes. So full planes, no protected middle seats, poor mask discipline, and for sure Y passengers smashed up against each other in the aisle for boarding. Zero interest in distancing while boarding. On the LAX to DFW flight all the elderly preboards had to wait in the gangway for 5 minutes or so with no ventilation. Also LAX AC had good distance protocols. DFW AC had zip. That may be a CA vs TX thing.

Herb687

DFW the airport or DFW (QDF) the market?

I will admit that I do not know AA's current O&D market share in QDF. I suspect though that given the huge WN operation in town and WN focus on deemphasizing Wright markets in favor of longer haul routes out of DAL, AA does not have nearly the fortress that some might think. There's also been a lot of NK growth at DFW that could siphon off a fair amount of DFW O&D traffic here and there.

To me, a true fortress hub would be something like DL at CVG/SLC, NW at DTW/MEM/MSP, or UA at DEN (after CO and FL dehubbed there), AL at PIT. Maybe even AA at MIA before the growth of LCCs at FLL.

I don't think DFW ever really met the test of a fortress hub. Would need to see share data to know for sure. The only time it could have would have been after DL pulled out and before WN built up DAL to post-Wright markets. Similarly, ATL for DL was never the fortress some made it out to be. That market has usually had a second carrier with a fairly large hub. Think EA, AirTran, now WN.

Edited to add: and of course one of the most obvious fortresses of them all: PMUS/current AA at CLT. I'm sure AA's local market share at CLT is higher than it's ever been in DFW. Unfortunately for USdbaAA building your fortress in a place with almost no local demand and even less local premium demand is a pretty bad formula for success!

fly747first

I think you are failing to put it in context. Texas has no state income tax and millions of people moved to the DFW area within the last few years. I bet you anything that AA has more elites based in DFW than DL at CVG/SLC or UA at DEN, for instance.

Herb687

I would not take that bet. By sheer numbers, you are probably correct. But the number of AA elites in DFW strikes me as completely irrelevant to whether or not DFW counts as a fortress.

Again, CLT is objectively more a fortress than DFW. In fact, I suspect that AA elites as a percentage of all AA POO CLT/DFW O&D pax is higher at CLT than DFW. The problem is that 100% of the elites in CLT (both of them! ) doesn't buy you a whole heck of a lot and you wind up with a hub that has to live off of low yielding flow traffic despite it being a massive "fortress." (Ref pmNW at MEM)

To me, a fortress hub is a function of overwhelming local market share and an ability to dictate price in the market. I know for a fact that WN pricing impacts AA pricing at DFW.

born sleepy

I live in NE ATL.. ATL is definitely a massively-fortressy hub. The number of WN flights in/out of ATL is slightly more than a rounding error compared to DL's.

"LOYALTY IS FOR CHUMPS!" says the guy who claims to only buy F. Not all of us are that fortunate.

cmd320

I’ve flown, AA, B6, DL, FL, and WN to/through ATL. Yes, it’s a huge hub for DL, but with a single stop you can fly any other airline you want.

Of course, if you have to fly nonstop, you’re at the mercy of DL.

Herb687

Technically, I never claimed to ONLY buy first. When I want first, I buy it. I didn't invent the "Want first? Buy first." rule, by the way. I believe someone on the DL board was the first strong advocate for WFBF: Bubbasomethingorother. So, thank you, Bubba!

I won't occupy a middle seat under any (ok, most) circumstances but I don't particularly hate Y aisles/windows on 300 mile flights. Heck, back in the MD-80 days I'd be reasonably happy with 21A on a 3 hour flight. But AA has made its Y experience so miserable and retired the MD-80, the only decent domestic plane in Y, so, yeah there's no way I will fly AA Y for more than about +/- 900 miles/2.5 hours. I've posted elsewhere that I would have no qualms flying NK and paying for a Big Front Seat on a 2-3 hour flight so, yes, I would argue that being loyal to an airline is rather stupid in this day and age.

First class monetization is the best thing ever to happen to frequent flyers!

For those short haul (former Wright Amdt.) type markets where Y is endurable, it boggles the mind that anyone in DFW would be loyal to AA right now while booking WN still gets you a guaranteed empty middle seat.

Abidjan

I miss 21A. A favorite seat of mine.

fly747first

What's your obsession with "fortress hub"? You aren't the authority on definitions. I'm CK and consistently, prior to Covid, the hardest routes to upgrade were out of DFW, not CLT.

You know for a fact that WN pricing impacts AA at DFW? Wow, I'm so impressed. You realize AA has had a huge Pricing and Revenue Management department for decades now, right? LOL Oh and they establish rates for flights out of CLT, too.

Herb687

Due to exactly the point I made multiple times here. CLT is a smaller local market and has much less local premium demand. But it's a fortress hub by any reasonable metric. If there is any commonly accepted definition of "fortress hub" (and, as far as I know, there isn't one) it would certainly be tied to market share and pricing power and have absolutely nothing to do with how easy it is for someone to score an upgrade.Let's just say I am VERY familiar with it.

fly747first

If you want to be draconian on such matter, there is no set definition of a fortress hub and as such, if I'm making a general comment about upgrades, I'm not obligated to use the term "fortress hub" in the precise way that you definite it or find it acceptable to be defined. Cheers.

saltytheseagull

I have never heard fortress hub in the context of upgrades, just normally in the context of one airline dominating the majority of flights.

Off the top of my head I can think of:
AA in CLT, PHL, and DFW
UA in EWR, DEN, and SFO
DL in ATL, DTW, MSP, and SLC

fly747first

My point was that DFW is a fortress hub for AA and lots of people moved to the DFW area within the last few years so essentially, by simple logic, we know the number of AA elites based in DFW is significant and with so many elites, upgrades are harder to clear. CLT and PHL were fortress hubs for the old US Airways, now AA obviously, yet the number of residents in the DFW, ~8 million, easily surpasses that of CLT and PHL, 3 million and 6 million respectively.